Speaking as a Raven One user, I do not feel the Brinkmann is any less well made. Indeed, Ive often admired the manufacturing quality of their product and tend to see them as a reference for good manufacturing.
One of the items that has emerged from the discussion which I suppose relates to all turntables to a greater or lesser degree is neutrality.
What should one consider to be the design properties of a neutral turntable?
Since we appear to have been focussing on them, the Raven/s consists of -
- Heavy, essentially non-resonant chassis, comprising polymer/metallic components.
- Heavy, inert, sonically dead platter, closely matching the impedance of vinyl.
- Large, closely toleranced main bearing made to within 10 microns or so.
- Unsuspended construction which grounds any internal vibration (albeit, typically of unsuspended, allowing ingress in the opposite direction
)
- Speed stability which is relatively beyond reproach.
Given these characteristics, one wonders if neutrality is as questionable as has been suggested if indeed the above factors are important/relevant in achieving the ideal of Neutrality?
(Which returns me to my original question what are the salient mechanical properties of a neutral turntable?)
I would have thought tonearms would offer a great deal more opportunity for colouration and resonance than an inert platform?
Indeed I would suggest that such construction offers the chance to hear the differences between those tonearms and the discovery of where their unique resonances lie?
Better a well damped design than to have metallic resonances circulating around a suspended closed loop with nowhere to go?
Just to put things in perspective I am also an avid fan of what the Acutus does (pardon the pun) but it is one of the most expensive suspended T/Ts around so I would demand exemplary performance for such a price. The Acutus has its own ways of managing resonance. Even at its price point it is hard to beat but no turntable is perfect.
Turntable choice is and always will be a personal one. All turntables sound different. Each turntable accessorised differently will sound different again. Good examples of perception changing accessorisation consists of supports and platter mats. Platter mats e.g. Ringmat vs Achromat, are capable of changing the sound of a turntable from Dr Jekyll into Mr Hyde (which is which will depend on your preference). 2 radically different sounds from radically different mats undamped vs damped.
50% might buy a turntable with one but not the other.
I should also give Stillpoints a mention. Several years ago I discussed the usage with the Company and they defended the rules of use i.e. loosely not tightly screwed to the underbody of the turntable. Odd but true. The object is to use the screw as an additional form of decoupling. IMO the greater the overlapping area the more energy gets sunk (or sourced). Once weight is applied to the thread (reportedly) it locks and does not micro-rock. For this reason I tend to see Stillpoints simply as a multi-stage minimum-coupling mechanism. 3 stillpoints must be better than 4.
Kind regards, |
I think both Raul and Dev are right too in their assessments. And I agree no product is perfect and if there was one and we could afford it, everyone would own it.
Onee thing that strikes me from Dev's post is the noisy bearing in some TW models with the 'old bearing.' I purchased my TW AC-1 about a year ago and I've noticed two different looking bearings on internet pictures. Ones with a 'flat-top' bearing and ones with a slightly convex top to the bearing. I have the slight convex-top bearing and the housing at its end (inside platter) has a slight concave shape to it.
This bearing is exceedingly quiet so I am assuming its the new bearing and housing. It is so much more quiet than the VPI Aries 3 bearing/table I had.
A refinement of improvement as the product evolves. |
Wrm57,
What I see are a volume of attacks by Syntax,Dev and others in every thread that mentions TW.
As Dev has mentioned ,his current system is far from his first and I would think Syntax had other components prior to his current listing,Yet they do not bash,knock ,downgrade these other components that they have moved on from.
I'm not writing to defend TW although I do own the GT and 10.5.and they certainly dont need my defense.
Please re-read Dgad's 04-15 post it just about sums it up but I still wonder what is Syntax and others real objective.
I'm sure its not to save us from the horrors of a great turntable
|
Ebm, it doesn't take rocket science to set-up a TW table but then again you would not know because as you stated above you had someone else do that for you so you really are the clueless one. Can you actually offer any constructive information besides you normal silliness.
Adding to that Ebm I still owned my AC3 at that time when I was inquiring about a tour and was looking to purchase the BN table something that you can only dream of owning.
Still no one has answered, is there in fact a TW facility and if so where specifically in Germany, it appears ghostly.
It's sad that some of you "mostly TW owners" are so close minded on this topic of product but very opinionated about others, all one needs to do is read your past threads so what would one call that?
I personally owned numerous TW product up to their flagship pce, how many of you can say that say I can and will convey my findings be it good or bad.
I am providing first hand information in a discussion, if you take it as bashing or personal well then you have the problem.
These forums are for discussions, I provide first hand while some of you are flying on the seat of your pants and so full of sh..
When looking at product "any" nothing is perfect and the usual is to discuss so improvements can be made.
As per Dgad's reply above, he says he has had numerous versions.
Why would there be numerous versions?
Dgad mentioned his table now is locked in on the 33.3 speed and said he can hear the difference, if the speed was not a concern as so many of you seem to babble about then why would Thomas work on such and why would Dgad write such.
Dgad said the latest version now holds an approx. 20 hour charge. Wonder which version this is as mine only held 4-5 hours, far cry from 20 hours. I sent mine back to Thomas and he said he checked everything but upon arrival still the same.
So why would there be a latest versions if all was good.
AC tables that most of you own you don't even know what version it is, I bet most are the older version with the old noisy bearing which can not be upgraded due to the substantial redesign so you best just get a new table but if you can't hear the difference as most "glow about" really doesn't matter does it.
Why do you think there was such a radical costly redesign?
Come on guys .... wake up already
In the end as long as you are happy with your sound, not looking to improve, don't kmow or can't hear the differences than so be it, individuals whom I know are looking for improvement's just like Dgad otherwise he would not be trying different versions would he.
I'm thinking of buying another TW BK to actually see if there are any improvements :-) |
Dear Pani: PRAT, well if we take the P for peace that characterisitc IMHO is not a music characteristic. Music live music ina near field is IMHO everything but peace.
I don't know whom " invented " PRAT expression to refer to music sound.
For me and is the way I understand MUSIC live music is a whole experience formed by:
first than all Rythmum, with out that music can't " moves " us can't wake up our deepest " feelings /emotions ". Ryhtmum involve almost all in live music.
Other music main characteristic is the " natural color and its shades " that only music has , this natural color means that music has to be neutral that its colorations are natural and well balanced over the frequency range.
The third main characteristic is that " natural agresiveness " undistorted agresiveness that belongs only to live music.
and last but not less important the: power of music, that power that we can not only hear but feel the same ( in different gradation ) from a drum than from the violin or a triangle. This power of the music where we can know exist only the air between the music and us. This is what gives the music our feeling of " dynamics, transient speed " and the like that's an unbeatable live music characteristic.
That is for me, a simple listener not a musician, MUSIC and that's what I'm asking when I listen to music in a live event that of course we can't achieve in almost any way in a home audio system.
Of course that exist a gradation on those MUSIC characteristic and that's why exist MUSIC with bad ryhtmum or with natural one, that's why exist over colored MUSIC sounds and acurate/non-distorted MUSIC sound.
Yes, instruments makes no music but are a critical factor of what we are hearing. Part of the music natural color comes from there as it comes a part of that rythmum.
MUSIC is a subject very complex, more complex that the analog home experience, that invloves not only the instrument quality, presentation stage/venue, the " firm hand " of the leader group/director and many other factors where maybe the most important part belongs to each one player " skills/emotions " during playbak and obviously we can't diminish our each one " mood " during the listening music session.
Music is an universal language and we have not to have studies of any kind to understand: music. Music is so perfect that it takes by it self the " tools " for any one can understand it.
PRAT or no PRAT has no importance because MUSIC speaks by it self. PRAT is an audiophile denomination.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dev, sorry on you know everything,but you are totally clueless on how to set up T W ACUSTIC turntable.TW does not need to give you a tour as you have nothing good to say on a wonderful table Maybe he missed the most important Detail? The Ultimate Set Up Manual ?Bottom, right corner ... |
Philb,Well said your on the money.Thanks. |
I think it's all just based on how things are said. One poster starts a thread or response about the incompetence of the design or designer, and that transfers directly to the incompetence of the owner/listener of that product.
Bottom line is this - If you are completely satisfied with your system/component/new purchase, you won't let a negative post affect how you feel about your gear. Only those who are self-doubters or who aren't in bliss with their sound, will take great offense.
Until things are measured/validated scientifically, this is all opinion - based issues and statements anyway. For example, I find it laughable that we uniformly accept the Sutherland Timeline as the gold standard for speed accuracy and stability measuring. How do we know that every Timeline from the factory is calibrated accurately? How do you prove it? Who knows?
I for one am super happy with my TW table. And I certainly don't let anything affect that status except my own ears.
Les keep the discussions on this board lively and informative. But take nothing personally! |
Dear friends: If we take any TT to " disect " it we will find out all its defects/faults and its virtues and if we can go deeper on our research we could find out some other unknow virtues/faults of the item.
Here the unsatisfied TW owners posting no single TT virtue but only its faults.
Why is this?, makes no sense to me not be aware of one TW virtue and post it even that I don't like the item.
In the other side:
+++++ " without knowing anything... rpm 33.333334 or 33.333333 when the Timeline drifts the difference is MUCH higher... lousy Pulleys...none of you seems to have an idea what that means ... internal damping ..also no idea from all of you except Dev ... belt quality...and so on and on and on " +++++
Seems to me that for some of you everything is: before the Timeline and after the Timeline and IMHO this is an error.
To those TT owners where they can change trhough a pitch control the TT speed try to have this experience:
first time in the morning make a tiny/small change on speed turning the pitch TT control and for one week listen to that same speed and at the end of the week ask you if you are unsatisfied or not with what you are listening it.
Then return to the original ( Timeline based. ) speed and after 30 minutes ask your self if you like it more on this way or with that tiny speed change.
You will be surprised on your answer. Please don't try to attack at this moment this " experience/test " but after you did it.
Btw, it is not important if that tiny speed change was for lower or faster speed.
Now, on this speed subject: Lewm pointed out that we don't know if during the LP overall recording process the LP was cutted at 33.3333333 rpm or at 33.33 rpm or what ever so: how any one of us can comes here to say that because a TT did not pass the Timeline test we are hearing something " different " and not only different but something that dislike the more because of that speed deviation?.
I think we can't do it what we can do it is that there is no excuse for a 20K+ TT not fit accurate and stable speed and from this point of view seems to me that the TW is a faulty design because it does not match " perfect speed ".
At that and up TT price level any TT has to be " near perfect " in all main TT characteristics that have influence on the generated sound under any circumstance during playback. We can't ask for less.
Syntax posted: " none of you have an idea what that means " in reference on some TT characterisitcs and that could be true with some of us but we are only customers not TT designers to know everything about. We have to judge n audio item as " listeners ".
Even he does not know everything about and that's why he owns what he owns on all his system items and that's why he is a system " changer " over the time: from SS to tubes and again to SS and the like with his cartridges and tonearms, as I said over his system.
Ebm, don't assume that Syntax knows everything because he pictured in his system two Olympos boxes, money means nothing but kin owledge level, skills and how any one use that knowledge/skills.
Yes, thye TW designers has a land to improve their design but this is true with almost any other audio item. We customers are in " motion " looking always for the best, so we are asking every day for the best for all audio item manufacturers.
Btw, I'm sure of something about TW: if the desig n is so bad as the unsatisfied owners pointed out sooner or latter will disappear from the market if don't fixed before.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Wrm57,
Insults start whenever certain members start insulting other members and make claims to be better than others etc. Any discussion with humble origins and without ego would go much further. I can go and quote what was said but just go above and read it. If I didn't like a product my statement would be simple, I have had very positive experience with XYZ and I prefer that. I think that is much better than going forward and saying that all so & so people have no idea what they are listening to and don't know good sound etc. I have had some bad luck with certain brands in my life. I have owned several high end watches. Some with extreme complications. Yet, some of the "best" brands have failed and even after repair they failed again. But I know several happy people owning the same item. I don't bad mouth the watch. I take it as everyone can have a negative experience. I was unlucky. But since I had a watch that failed, I should tel everyone to stay away from it and that they would be making a mistake to ever buy one? I just don't get it. This is a forum. Yes you can say what you want. But how it is said is extremely important.
And if you are on record already saying your opinion several times in a negative & derogatory way to both the brand and other owners and you persist on doing so I do have a problem. You obviously have an axe to grind. At that point loyal and happy customers will show their support. It is kind of the same as Wilson bashing which went on for years and continues. They are probably at the top in sales of speakers in their respective price ranges. Of course there are different speakers out there that some might prefer. But people bash them and others defend them. But no one does it the way certain members do it in regards to TW. |
The volume of ad hominem attacks by TW owners on posters who don't share their love of these turntables is really astonishing, and virtually unique to this brand. Dislike the message? Discredit the messenger, either by direct insult or innuendo. That's the approach of a surprising number of TW owners in this forum. Why so much anger and vehemence? |
Dev, sorry on you know everything,but you are totally clueless on how to set up T W ACUSTIC turntable.TW does not need to give you a tour as you have nothing good to say on a wonderful table |
Very well said Syntax. Just like the prat thing which people like to avoid discussing or learning. |
Dgad,
I not bashing just asking questions for clarification, I don't see anything wrong with that.
I'll gladly answer yours, see below;
1- I don't know what MBL has to say about pairing my such up with my VAC 450 Statement amps, best you ask them. The rest of your babble in relation to this is just that, showing a lack of experience. You can put the question forth to Ralph of Atma-Sphere whom will educate you in the fact MBL's once loaded in a room aren't that hard to drive. You can also speaker with Ken Steven's of CAT whom built his 100 watt tube mono blocks around MBL's.
2- I purchased my table from a TW dealer, I was the first consumer to own it. I also purchased a 10.5 arm from a dealer, again first consumer to own.
3- Minus K optimized, wow! you really have no clue because you would never make statements or ask such.
4- Your last paragraph is just stupid, why is it TW fan boys all seem to be so defensive including your self as I'm reading and BS. I'm not a MS group guy, don't care about Syntax and TW issues, that's between them. I don't have an axe to grind and nothing against Jeff or Thomas. I'm sharing my experience as you and others do and just asking questions in relation to TW product as a whole so kindly answer.
Now I have some questions;
My first question;
1- Simply answer my questions put forth in my above posting or are you afraid for some reason.
2- You asked me so I'll ask you, who did you buy your TW tables from? My understanding is that you have a history of trading watches for product, is that true? because there is a story's going around. |
I find funny when I read from some of you suggesting these forums are free to communicate your thought's, REALLY?
DEV A quote from William Blake (1757-1827) which passed the test of time: "When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do". Well, normally a discussion is about a product or its abilities. The majority of TW owners above avoid that, instead they try to guide every discussion away from the product towards a - non existing - Personal conflict with whoever ... |
Dev,
Too many questions and you are busy bashing the table. May I ask why you want to know? Just gave you the facts buddy. I did a battery drain test twice. I stood there and watched the spectrum analyzer while the test tone track played beginning to end. Also twice at different times. With and without my Harmonix weight. I didn't check with my outer ring though.
I have a question for you though? What does MBL have to say about acting your amps with the VAC tube amp? Did they think it would work. Seems still like a tough combination with the impedance range of your speakers not being easy for the amps to handle. I just don't know any tube amp that can.
Did you buy your table from Jeff or TW or someone else? New or used? Did you know the Minus K was optimized fr the BN or the AC? What is the weight difference between both? Is it adjustable? If yes how? Did you adjust it?
I don't want you to be ignored or I will hurt Syntax's feelings. But I need to learn how to ignore him. I just can't. Do you know why? Can you offer me advice on how to ignore him better? Why do you need to jump on the negative bandwagon for every TW thread? Did TW or Jeff do anything personally to hurt you? Was it something else? Is your friendship with the Micro Seiki group very important to you? Do you know the truth about why Syntax has an axe to grind with TW? |
We all know that TW speed is not within tolerance of Timeline but it is certainly well within tolerance of Kab strobe.
So what does that mean? People who are not using Timeline are obviously clueless and do not have proper hearing ability to appreciate good turntable then!
Before Timeline came out, anybody who claims turntable is good obviously have no clue what they are talking about either! |
PS, I am also curious, before Timeline came out, do you use ya turntable? Were you able to dial in the speed as accurately with other method as accurately as Timeline? If no, were you able to enjoy listening to LP at all? If yes, why did you bother to buy Timeline, to enjoy the blinking light? |
Syntax, since you are all knowing, please let us know, is TW motor spinning at 34 rpm, 40 rpm, 30 rpm or what. |
Downunder
I'm not at home right now to double-check but I referred to slower based on the 33 mark moving in the direction the "slower-arrow" is pointing to on the strobe-remote-gadget . I thought this designates slower speed because I recall having to increase speed to move the mark back to a steady position. I'll double check this weekend.
If indeed the table slows down with one motor, then I suspect the three motors supply ample torque to compensate thus effect and that us why you dont see a drift. In any case, the mark does move on mine.
I was referring to leveling if the plinth. Not the motor.
I tried Millenium and Boston mat and like the bare copper the best.
Andrew |
Dgad
Up to last week I had been running with no mat as well. The arm board was set up for the tall dyna xv-1s. The Lyra Atlas is not as tall and was down the bottom of the Phantom vta tower. I think that may not be optimal and on the Phantom.
I had to use the mat to use the overachieving denon dls1 on my 2nd armwand, so also used it when I went back to the Atlas. I was surprised how much better the mat sounded.
I may need to lower the height of the arm board to get a more fair comparison. That is a pita to do thou:-) |
To any one with a Raven AC or AC3. A couple years ago I had a hard time dialing in the VTF/VTA for the best sound. After double checking for level I realized that while level was fine the right front footer was a bit loose. Loose is not quite right, there was not as much weight on that footer.
After adjustment so that the TT weight was more evenly distributed among all three footers the issue went away. This adjustment has been required twice in almost four years.
FYI |
Suteetat, good work on speed, timing, Timeline discussion. |
I explained in a previous post how adjusting the motor controller for accurate speed by flipping its switch up or down very quickly, checking the KAB strobe for correctness and then using the other switch to lock in that speed got the job done for me. Yes, unfortunately the push button allowing for slight adjustments does not work. I hear no problems with the reproduction of voices or any number of different orchestral instruments. I also made adjustments with the tonearm and vta. Based on repeated listening, and affixing two pieces of printer's tape, one with an arrow mark on the flat portion of the vta dial and the other with a range of line markings on the stainless steel platform just beneath the vta dial of my TW 10.5 tonearm, I was able to obtain repeatable settings for various thicknesses of records. It has worked beautifully. The feet for my Raven One table are TW's own. I've used neither a record mat nor a separate isolation platform. There's only a solid concrete floor with carpet on it and my Just-A-Rack (no longer in business as far as I know) stand. I feel fortunate to have my music and sound just the way I want it. I hope some of what I've said regarding my setup might help any number of those who have had problems. |
Just wanted to explain my speed test. I have a Prism Orpheus AD-DA converter. I just play a test tone and zoom in to 1000 Hz (I think that is the frequency I am using) and watch it on the spectrum analyzer on the screen. The wave peak is centered on 1000 Hz. When I change the speed up or down it moves to 997 or 1003. It is easy enough to check wow & flutter and if the speed is set right. I don't know if the Cardas LP is perfect but that is what I use. It is spot on to the tolerance of the software I guess but you can see if you are off at all. One thing for sure you can hear the difference when you change the adjustment to being just off a touch. Very easy to hear. The weak link is that a turntable with switchable speed for 33 and 45 can never be as good as a dedicated motor & PS for each individually. And of course the belt. Funny no one has brought that up here as of yet. |
Downunder,
I am back to just the copper. But the reason is it sounds almost the same. On the AC I preferred the Living Voice. |
Hi,3 of my friends bought TW ACUSTIC tables after hearing my well set up table.These guys all Love there tables. |
Hi Dgad,
Interesting;
-in relation to being on battery mode and now being able to hold an approx. 20 hour when did this finally happen
-Have you actually kept a log, how long is the charge vs being on battery mode now while playing a record.
-You mention you can clearly hear a difference now compared to prior versions and you have now owned several, what year are you referring to and how many versions.
I never received any information of such while owning any of mine.
-When you make mention it's an audible difference what are you actually referring to.
I could hear along with others who heard my system back when I owned mine a few years ago the differences but both Jeff and Thomas dismissed such but now all the sudden you make references to changes and such being audible, interesting.
Kindly enlighten us further along with what was done.
I agree the bass was boomy and just one of my issues, I spent additional monies to address such. I actually purchased a custom made Minus K platform that Jeff had commissioned. I also tried numerous other methods which helped but in the end did not satisfy.
So more work has been done on the controller unit so it can now finally lock in on 33.3 speed, this is good news and was needed. When did this finally actually happen, what year.
-What other changes have been made to the Black Knight table
In relation to the AC tables have changes also been made to their controllers, any more bearing changes. I know there are many tables out there built in different years and are different variances of the same table but most can not actually be upgraded fully to the latest version mainly due to the bearing change.
-The motor unit, on mine the actual pulley's the way they were manufactured have a roundness in the middle. When I eye balled mine viewing at the same level I could clearly see a variance of the belt wondering up and down on the three pulley's and interacting, such being transferred to the platter which would be transferred to the bearing. At one point I used a scope just for fun to magnify the sound, I tried various motor methods including my AC motors. 1 or 2 or 3 even 1 or 2 or 3 of the pulley's on the BK motor unit which was really interesting. I even placed one AC motor on the opposite side of the platter inline with the spindle but not actually working but with a belt on it, listening. This was very interesting indeed, taking pressure of the bearing and only being pulled to one side. |
TW tables are okay but that's it, all I can say is choose your poison. I don't miss mine.
Where are these TW tables actually manufactured "facility" because when I was heading off to Germany to Mercedes Benz facilities for a tour I also inquired one of the TW manufacturing facilities but was told such was not available which really seemed very odd.
Has anyone been to it.
Ebm, oh no you are the one who knows everything, all one needs to do is read your posts over the past years which offer nothing. :-)
The usual one liners "fan boy" replies or sarcasm with snide remarks towards other members as you have clearly demonstrated numerous times above in this thread.
Do enjoy! |
Hi Andrew
I have the AC-3, so 3 motors.
Never had an issue to align the belt in the middle of each motor pulley. Just adjust the feet slightly and after some slight changes the belt aligns perfectly. My VPI HRX belt always vibrated all over the place, so the TW a lot better:-)
Are you sure the 33 drifts slightly to the left? KAB says left is faster.
BTW, what mat do you use, or are you direct to the copper plate. I have tried the millenium, Boston and no mat. I found the Living Voice is quite a bit better than all of these. Dgad recommended it a while back.
Cheers |
Hello Downunder
In my case, with one motor, the speed slows down ( as observed by the 33 mark moving to the left of the strobe disk) when the needle is in the groove. Are you using more than one motor?
Andrew |
tdaudio, I completely agree with you about recording process and all the behind the scene work. DG certainly made it well known that they are not there to capture the performance as is but edit and manipulate the recording session in such way that they think is the best way to listen through 2 channel systems. Whether you agree with their philosophy or not is up to personal preference. I have not made much point about that since I was really concentrate more on timing/speed issue with Timeline.
Actually I am a bit disappointed as there is not much of a comment regarding Brinkmann which is a turntable that I am actually curious about. All I recall regarding TW vs Brinkmann is that there were some old threads back when TW was still relatively new, it seemed that quite a few people made a migration from Brinkmann to TW.Whether that is still an accurate sentiment to the current Brinkmann and TW, I have no idea. |
Hi Andrew
I just tried your playing a LP under the KAB disc. The speed was exactly the same as no lp playing. 33 and stable :-)
Can't say I have ever subscribed to the notion that stylus drag effects the speed on any decent turntable.
I have the OEM tw stilpoint ultras. They are designed to have a gap between bottom and top of still point. Funny, I tried Still point Ultra SS and I preferred the sound of the OEM aluminium's.
Cheers |
I own a TW Acustic Raven AC-1 and would like to make a few comments:
1) The table needs to have its speed set with the needle in the grove. I believe this has to do with the fact that it uses a DC motor. My understanding is that the speed is related to the torque. With surface friction applied by stylus drag, the table needs more torque to achieve the desired speed. If the speed is set without the needle in the grove, it is using insufficient torque to be at the correct speed. I set speed by placing a record underneath my KAB strobe disk and put the needle in the grove to set the speed. Since you don't have a lot of space you need to make adjustments quickly.
2) As others have said, being at the absolute speed is secondary and being slightly fast or slow doesn't affect the sonic quality of the TT at all. As such, the Timeline has very limited benefit in comparing TT's.
3) As others have said, what is more important is speed stability. That is how much the speed varies over short times (flutter) or over slightly longer periods (wow). This is perceived by the ear down to a certain level. I suggest going to Wikipedia for the wow/flutter definition to understand the impacts on sonic quality. I think that comparing wow/flutter values is better than using the Timeline to compare TT's. The Feikert Adjust+ software is what more of us should be using. Not sure how DGad uses his spectrum analyzer, but this will definitely give him the raw data to evaluate speed stability. Also, the higher the sampling rate the better resolution you will get.
4) As someone said earlier, the resonance characteristics of one TT vs. another has a lot to do with the sonic differences between TT's. Graham Tricker used the phrase "rotating resonance machines" to describe TT's. That is a great phrase. I agree with DGad who says isolation is important and Raul who says that TT mats and armboard materials/shapes can have a large impact on sound quality.
5) I have also found that using the supplied feet can create a less than stable and wobbly platform. I have the original Stillpoints on mine. I used to keep those tight and rotate the SS bases to adjust level. But recently I keep both the SS base and the stillpoints tight and secure. I level the table by placing small sections of business cards to adjust the level. I found this makes a big improvement. I would like others to experiment with this to see if they see similar results.
6) Lastly, I think the AC-1 is an excellent sounding TT and probably more neutral than you might think. When I got the TT I continued to use the TT with the cartridge set at the same VTF as I was using on my previous table. Years later, on a fluke, I ended up trying a much lower VTF (~1.88g vs 1.97g) on my Transfiguration Orpheus and the difference was profound. Much much better than before. Initially I complained of muddy, unimpactful bass and limited dynamics. That is not the case any longer!! Please also note I tried this lower VTF setting with my old table early on and it didn't sound optimal. Maybe this has something to due with cartridge age, maybe with the different resonance characteristics of the tables, or maybe the TW is so neutral that it allowed it to achieve a better level of performance from the cartridge.
Anyway, in my experience, the TW AC-1 is a great sounding TT and better than many out there. At the original asking price it is very competitive with much costlier units...I believe it still is.
Andrew |
Microseiki must be the best ill get on for a second table ASAP!! |
Dgad, I know I stuck my neck out the moment I took names and tried to talk straight without using sugar coated disclaimer in every sentence. Believe me I never intended to abuse anyone or sound condescending. Some times straight talk can drive a point home which typical forum speak cannot. I have some very clear thoughts on the PRAT subject which I wanted to bring out. For that my lingo had to change a bit. I do not own any of the UK turntables I mentioned in my previous post so there is no user bias here, just some clean thoughts. I apologize if I have hurt anyone.
I will write more in a while. |
Dev and Syntax sorry you guys are audio gods.HO HO HO!! |
Dev you are clueless on TW setup mine was set up by Jeff i have NO problems only great sound.Good luck with your new table. |
Dev, I had problem with belt moving up and down on the pulley of my AC1. However that was easily fixed once I adjust the height oh the motor and turntable properly.
I also have Timeline which I used on tw VPI and microseiki . It is not a big issue for me that I could not dial in tw to exactly spot on like my micro seiki.
By my calculation, may be someone want to verify this, a 20 minutes piece of music playing at 33.3333 vs 33.30 , the difference is 1.2s or 2.4s at 33.4 rpm. Now I don't think tw error is even this high. I doubt any musician can play 20 minutes and kept precision to +- 2s in 20 minutes. We all know that studio recordings are all spliced from multiple takes. Even live recordings are sometimes taken from a few performances and edited together. Orchestras can be pitched at A440 A 441. A442 even a445. And some performances are pitched at A420 and they all sound just fine as long as they are pitched equally. If 33.3333 is a significant different from 33.320 33.34 or whatever, that's beyond my hearing ability. If a person's pitch is that precise, I doubt that person would be incapable of enjoying any piano pieces that have any sharp or flat due to compromise in equal temperament tuning either. Timeline is fun to play with but in the end, it is really overly sensitive, I think .
Back in the 50s and 60s, all those with wonderful bluenote, decca, mercury lps, are recording equipments, Lp producing equipments calibrated to such precision level as Timeline offer? If not, timeline may make people worry much about nothing. |
Darren,
Dancing with your 3 year old is what music is all about.
Time does fly.
Let me know when your next trip to L.I. is planned.
Music and lunch/dinner is on me.
I just happen to be a brunette and vanilla guy too.
All the best
ed |
PRAT comes from the musicians, not equipment. As if UK gears has some monopoly on PRAT ( certainly marketing lol! ).............yeah right. |
Goldeneraguy,
Sorry, but I really find brunettes more beautiful. I do find a few blondes beautiful, but mostly brunettes.
I love Vanilla ice cream over chocolate.
I guess we all have our biases.
Enjoy Chico. |
Panni,
I was hoping to amuse you. Do some research on what people feel about PRAT. Does digital have PRAT. Most music recorded these days is done digital. Does R2R have PRAT? Does music have PRAT.
And to make it clear, should PRAT ever be the defining feature of music, our system, a turntable.
I just listen to music. Sometimes I get up & dance with my 3 year old, sometimes by myself. I just enjoy it. Even in my car I can enjoy it, my biggest problem with my stereo are the phone call interruptions.
So back to you Panni. Stop with the condescending tone. No need for it. If you want to join others here in that manner I can certainly take you on, but I am not out to insult or bash anyone unless they don't let up.
As Raul would say, enjoy the music.
As I would elaborate, enjoy the music, not the dissection of it into...... |
I hate headers that use vs.
This is a hobby not a football or basketball game(although some use these forums for a great debate)
Whats next,Vanilla vs.Chocolate?
Blondes vs.Brunettes?
In this hobby everything is subjective.Therefore how can anyone reply with an absolute ?
We dont know the sound of the op's complete system.
In fact we dont know what he or anyone else hears.
So how can we argue what we dont know.Is this Mock Court?
I use a TW GT table.Is it the best? I really dont know but it thrills me every time I listen and thats all that matters.
Again guys this is a hobby,stop turning it into self promotion and arrogance.
My rant for the day.And now Chico Hamilton is waiting.
|
Dev,
The latest battery PS holds charge for about 20 hours. Also, it can lock on 33.33 exactly. And it is audible. I have compared Tito the earlier version,and have owned several version softie motor controllers. It is a significant leap forward.
As for the bass, until my table was completely isolated I would agree that the bass was boomy. But my isolation platform once tuned correctly,(which needed to be changed between the AC & BN) elevates the tables to another level. I am fairly dismissive of most of what people say when it comes to bass until the table is fully isolated. And that applies to all tables. Isolation needs tuning or else it will backfire. You need to have it calculated for the weight of the turntable. Using weight ballasts etc help.
I find the difference between a good turntable and a great oneis the isolation. I can knock on my table gently and it won't be heard. Also I can play music very loud and nothing. Just music. Prior to the isolation it was a different story. Every one has their own rooms to consider.
As for the belt & pulley comments, Dev I just don't see it. We traded mails but if I saw what you are going on aboutI would agree. To me the superiority of the BN is how quiet it is. I know you purchased some isolation platform but maybe it wasn't set up correctly. Mine is dead silent. Home made but it works. I know vibraplanes that don't do as good a job. Mind you a few good friends won't listen to their turntables (non TW) if their vibraplanes aren't working - they each had a flat at one time. |
Thr posting from Dev will be ignored as usual. In the next Raven Thread all the Fanboys will be back again with their "recommendations".
I think, some have absolutely no idea about turntable design and blubber something without knowing anything... rpm 33.333334 or 33.333333 when the Timeline drifts the difference is MUCH higher... lousy Pulleys...none of you seems to have an idea what that means ... internal damping ..also no idea from all of you except Dev ... belt quality...and so on and on and on.... I listened to a Dealer Demo with a very expensive TW table (BN or something I forgot), the TW Arm, the TW electronics and very expensive Cessaro Horns, I asked for Belafonte at Carnegie, Matilda
I was amazed that a lot of the higher tones, frequencies, echoes, roominformation was reduced and pale. And different from timing...Far away from what is possible based on that recording. But the owners told me how great it is....I accepted that and never looked back. But probably I will buy such a Turntable for my mother. She is 80+ and needs something for her 20 records, the unit is heavy enough to stay stable onto a table ... |
Pani, another thing about music and music reproduction is the sense that the sound source is something vibrating/resonating. A real thing. For example on an acoustic guitar after being struck the strings vibrate and the body of the guitar resonates along with the strings.
The thing about listening to vinyl that I love is that on decent to excellent recordings there is always that sense something is vibrating/resonating - musical instruments. And on good recordings it is instruments in space.
In contrast, red book CD does not give me that some sense.
That is not to minimize prat in any way. The goal for me is to have as much of everything that I can get and just enjoy the music that is there. |
Yes i'm sure you hear a pretty sound from your TW AC however my extended experience with my TW-AC2 was not a happy one.
Responding to a similar question a few years ago caused an exchange of private messages from happy TW owner that started out civil though ended with these happy TW members calling me names. Oh well, not so unusual I guess with "certain types".
My experience with this $17,000.00 table showed problems more so with play back of select vintage Lps.
I'm sure all is fine with Classic Rock, Pop and some of the modern re-issues of today, however.
My memory of the AC, play back was everything under glass, a lack of interplay , rhythmically compressed, no pulse and so on.
Like a cook that follows a recipe exactly though really has no feel or real passion to pull the dish off , it always turns out bland.
Why ?,,,, a table only supports the platter and tone arm with a motor to spin the record, how can this have so much influence on what I hear?
There are said many stated happy TW owners,as it turned out it reallly tells me nothing about the product itself, like movie box office receipts it says nothing of the movie itself.
For the price and level of performance I say no. |
Dgad, as always, I am amused by questions like "does
live music have PRAT ?" !! The fundamental building
block of music is PRAT and dynamics. An instrument doesnt
create music, it only creates sounds. When those sounds are
played in certain "time" intervals, in a certain
"pattern" at a certain "speed" we call
it music. This is what people refer to as PRAT, is it so
complicated to make sense ? And you ask me whether Live
music has PRAT ? Live or Reproduced, music is made out of
PRAT and dynamics. Inaccuracy or inability to preserve any
of these is seriously detrimental to the realization of the
actual art that is embedded in the music one is listening.
You say some people love it, some like it and some
"outgrow" it!! To me, people who outgrow it are
basically people who have very less understanding of the art
of music and are mostly concerned about "sound".
They are typical audiophiles who care about the audiophile
aspects of sound and are in hifi only to experience that,
they are always after soundstage, which itself is an
artificial phenomenon which doesnt have any reference. I
agree that dynamics cannot be fully preserved because of
extreme limitations starting from the microphones, recording
tape and all the subsequent equipments in the recording
chain. But PRAT is a lot easier to preserve and most lo-fi
equipments actually preserve PRAT very well. Why do we start
losing it once we enter hifi is something to think about.
Regarding UK turntables, Linn, Rega, Roksan, Avid, SME,
combined sales of these turntables comprise of more than 85%
of "made in uk" TT sales around the world. All of
them keep the timing and pace very well. How big a
soundstage they create is trivial IMO. |
The TW Ac-1 in my system either with solid state (Rowland) or tubes (ARC) gives me meaty, beefy images with good air and soundstaging. The images are so solid, it gives me the illusion of reality. Super quiet noisefloor. Bass is full and impactful yet it has bloom too. PRAT is not high on my list of desires. Did my former table (VPI Aries 3) have more PRAT? Probably.....but I prefer the TW table leaps and bounds more. |
