Big speakers in small room at moderate volume levels
My office is 11’W x 10’L x 9’H and is where I can listen to music for the next few years. I have a toddler and, for now, he has commanded the big spaces in the rest of the house. I have auditioned the Magico A3 and wanted to buy it but that was before I was relegated to the smallish office (I was expecting to move to a bigger room). I have removed the closet doors in this office room. The removal of the closet door gives me another 4 feet of depth to this room, though for only 1/2 width of the room. I can sit unobstructed 8 feet away from the speakers before I hit the area where the closet ends (so near field listening).
I currently I have KEF LS50 with Peachtree Nova 150. It is good and I can listen for the whole day without fatigue. I listen to FM, digital files on ROON, and my Sony SCD-1 SACD player. I want a bigger sound so I am looking at bigger speakers. I also do not want to use a sub since I am not a fan. I will also upgrade the NOVA 150 to the NOVA 500 in Spring 2019 and use with the LS50’s in a bedroom.
I came to the conclusion that my tastes would be best served by one of KEF Reference 1 or Magico A3. I was thinking that I would use the Lyngdorf 3400 in this room but I am having seconds thoughts on this now (some A’gon comments that it maybe a little dry). I am interested in solid state AB units like the Hegel H590 and Mark Levinson 585 to drive the speakers. I have heard the ML 585 and it is a fatigue free sounding unit that was a joy to listen to. I have not heard the Hegel H590 yet (but have heard other Hegels with KEF) and I am in the process of getting an audition of the H590. I have also discounted the class AB Micromega M-One 150 (with MARS room correction) because I do not want a cooling fan blowing in the room.
I must mention that I do not listen that loud when I am working and when I am working very late at night the volume is very low. The Mark Levinson and A3 combo was very good at low volumes during my demo but that was in the dealers perfect large room.
1) Am I making a mistake foregoing room correction with the 2 integrateds I am considering? Should I go with the Lyngdorf and A3 or KEF Ref 1, though I have never heard the Lyngdorf?
2) Will the Magico A3 work in this small room at moderate volumes WITHOUT room correction or will I subject myself to headaches and fatigue?
I am going to ask the dealer selling the A3’s this question when I am ready to buy but i wanted to ask on A’gon first to get some feedback. I doubt I could get the A3’s into my room for a trial but I have not asked the dealer yet.
I think (not 100% sure) the KEF Reference 1 with a non room correcting amp should work in my office space but I would prefer to buy the Magico A3 for the office. I have plans to buy another KEF model once my kid is a bit older and I can kick him out of the big room.
I would say this popular thread benefits from your extensive writing on the learning / personal journey of discovery while you solve some unique issues with demanding requirements- people are investing in helping you and learning themselves...
to that end i had another reason to read the Lyndorf 3400 manual
it has extensive filters for high Pass as well as frequency response smoothing DSP
you should be able to set a first order filter at 40 HZ or so and fix some room gain issues
I made a change to the furniture in the room. I got rid of the desk facing the speakers. I can get by with out it. I am also going to remove the ugly 30 year old side table I have near the right speaker. The cable modem and other wires will go to the ground.
Listening to Muddy Waters "Hard Again" sounds much improved now. It sounds like a big desk has been removed from in front of the speakers. A brilliant move on my part.
I must say that at the moment the LS50’s are sounding alight. It would be interesting to try it with better amplification but I am not going to diverge from my plans to do that. I will get the Harbeth SHL5+ for a home demo in 3-4 weeks with my Pearchtree Nova 150. This will show me the character of the Harbeth and also show how a bigger speaker sounds in the acoustically treated room.
I will post photos soon when I install the acoustic treatments that should be in transit to my home.
@James63 I demoed the A3 at Brooks Berdan in Los Angeles area. The room may have been 3/4 your size. That room sounded great with A3 and Mark Levinson gear.
It may have been said in earlier posts but Lyngdorf 3400 in addition to automatic correction and eq curves also has manual dsp correction. So you are actually able to get whatever sound you like. If you want subs to do the low parts the crossover facility in Lyngdorf amps is very good. A much cheaper but powerful alternative would be the new XTZ edge amp paired with an Antimode 2.0. No crossovers though.
I wrote an update to this thread but I seem to have suffered the posting gremlins in the new A'Gon catcha selections. Let me test this post and then try again (condensed version).
I made some changes to my room last night. I removed my small desk facing the speakers and the side table near the right speaker. This morning I started to test out the room again with my most fatiguing disks, such as The Smashing Pumpkins, etc... The new room sound is a revelation. These hard sounding disks no longer have that fatiguing hardness to them. My ears and head are feeling nothing bad. I removed the second office desk based on the ideas that were presented on the links @James63 posted. It made sense to remove the desk after watching those videos.
My current LS50 and Peachtree are sounding rather impressive now in this room even without treatments, though I keep the entrance door opened. I have posted some photos of the new room furnishings on my virtual system.
Last night, while most were partying, I went over some emails I had with a Lyngdorf dealer in New Mexico a few months back. He had actually provided me with the same answers that my personal online research ended up with. However, when he said it, I had some doubts but my research is also leading me to believe that the Lyngdorf will sound very good. The fact that my Class D Peachtree Nova is sounding so good now (though with moderate to high volume) also makes me feel good about the Lyngdorf Class D. Not all Class D are the same but I believe the Lyngdorf will be much better than the Nova. I can always try different amps with the Lyngdorf, such as the ones l mentioned in a previous post.
I am going to forego demoing the Lyngdrof at a local dealer and just buy it from the remote dealer. He seems like an expert on the unit and he is a huge advocate for it, that knowledge is worth a lot to me. One important thing he said was that in my room any speaker with a small profile will work, such as the Magico A3, KEF Ref 1, KEF Ref 3, I also assume the even narrower Vandersteen Treo CT will work. He also said that placing the speaker closer to the front wall (not against) is better for the Lyngdorf. With the Magico A3 and the Vandersteen Treo CT this is not a problem at all.
So I have the following things to do:
1) Wait for the room treatments and party with those in place for a while
2) Save some pennies to buy the Lyngdorf 3400. That can occur anytime this week to the end of March.
3) Demo the Harbeth at home, demo the Magico A3 at home after I get the Lyngdorf. Compare them to the Vandersteen Treo CT. My feeling is that the Treo CT will fit sound wise in between the Harbeth and Magico A3 sound. The Harbeth is not narrow but it is not a bass master like the other 2. This has to be a speaker for very long hours of play every day.
To make things interesting, and the Lyngdorf is the reason for this new thought, I have another speaker that I have been very interested in for years now. This is my thread from some time back, https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/yamaha-ns-5000
This is not available in the USA but it is now in Canada, at a dealer just a few miles from my mom and dad’s home. It would cost me about the price of the TAD ME1 to have it shipped to me in California. It is a stand-mount but it has deep bass and it does NOT have a narrow profile. I am going to keep an eye on this one while I become an expert with the Lyngdorf.
I am listening to The Smiths self-title disc now and it is sounding so good. I have owned the LS50s since 2012 and used them in many bad rooms. I think this room is now the best room I have ever had the LS50’s. I don’t recall them sounding this good. I have had better electronics on the LS50’s but the room improvements I made last night are a bigger factor than the change of amps and DAC. Nice way to start the New Year.
With the buy decision made on the Lyngdorf and my room now sounding good even without treatments, another speaker that I think I can add back into the picture is the Vivid Kaya line. I went to hear this speaker the same day as the Magico A3 | Vandersteen Treo CT | Vivid Kaya 90. I thought the Kaya 90 was the best of the bunch but it was rather rich for my pocket book and also too big in sound. My listening time with the Vivid Kaya 90 was real short but what I heard sounded somewhat like the KEF Blade.
Prior to the Lyngdorf, I thought the Kaya would not fit in my space. However, it does have some things that would work real well with the Lyngdorf. It can be placed very close to the back wall. I got this info from the dealer I visited and also heard this from an email with one of the principals at Vivid Audio in South Africa. He described the placement they sometimes had to use in small hotel room demos. The Kaya also has a Lyngdorf approved narrow front profile (facing the listener).
This link above has a photo of the middle item in the current Kaya lineup. It has less bass than the Kaya 90 that I heard (a good thing for my room). It is also cheaper. Finances are also fluid and I maybe able to raise some pennies for the Kaya 45.
I just need to live with the Lyngdorf for a few months and really understand what it’s limits are. In other words I am not going to jump in on a speaker purchase. Today, it seems to me that I have a lot more options in getting good sound in this room.
My wife is on board with this office audio upgrade of mine and looking forward to getting the KEF LS50 and Peachtree Nova into her loft office space in the house. She listens to music via the iPhone and the Peachtree has some enhancements to facilitate that in a semi-decent manner. Her loft space is actually rather amazing acoustically.
@yyzsantabarbara . I have never heard of the Kaya until now. Thanks for posting that, now I have something else to try listening to in addition to MBL and German Physics. Bob
@gdnrbob That Kaya line is rather impressive, at least the Kaya 90 that I heard.
I am going to demo another speaker his Friday that I heard demoed by the same store reps a few years ago in a really bad (small) hotel room. This time the demo will be at their shop. It is the Paradigm Persona 5F driven by Simaudio. I am really only interested in the Persona 3F because I think it should fit my room and also comparable to the 2 other speakers I have under consideration and already heard, the Magico A3 and Vandersteen Treo CT. They only have the 5F for demo. It could be more coherent than the Magico A3 since the materials in the mid and tweeter are the same on the Persona line.
Should be interesting since this is such a polarizing speaker on this forum and with some reviewers. I was reading an online review on the Persona B and the reviewer stopped it half way and said I hate it no need to continue. Never seen that before. When I heard it in the bad room a few years ago I thought it had a lot of potential and I should listen to it again.
@justsntherhifiguy Congrats, is this going to be your arrangement, but with the gr12?
"enter the coherent line of speakers. he is local and i have had an opportunity to hear his speakers. they are very nice sounding. i am probably going to purchase a pair of his gr10 speakers. they will be placed on my wall that measures 9.5 feet wide and I will try to get them placed as far apart as I can, most likely 6 feet apart with 1.5 feet from side walls and 4 feet away from front wall. i will sit 6 feet away and 4 feet into the room. this will be a nearfield positioning for sure."
How about posting a photo of your system on the virtual systems section and giving some feedback. I find the systems in the small rooms are the most interesting for me to read about because you have so many issues to deal with. It is interesting to see how folks solve these issues.
BTW - are you in Stoney Creek, Ontario? I went to McMaster University.
I added some more photos as requested by A’gon member.
Today, I did some more exploring in Canada for the Yamaha NS5000. Canadian dealer will find out if there are any legal reasons why this speaker cannot be imported into the USA. Dealer has no issue getting me the speaker to my home. He will take care of all the paperwork.
GIK Treatments were delayed shipping last week and were only shipped today. So sometime next week will be when I should have them.
List of speakers that I think will now work with acoustic treatments and DSP.
1) Vandersteen Treo CT (heard it but need 1 on 1 demo this time)
2) Vivid Kaya 90 (heard it but only Kaya 45 or Kaya 25 will work in my room. Not really interested in the 25, need 1 on 1 demo this time)
3) Magico A3 (Heard it and liked it)
4) Harbeth SHL5+ (Have not heard it but will call local dealer in 2 weeks)
5) Paradigm Persona 5F (Will hear it again tomorrow with DSP though the Persona 3F is what I would want for the room)
" I am surprised at how effectively you are able to tune the NS-5000’s bass response with the bungs—Yamaha has obviously put some very serious design effort into ensuring these alignments are truly effective in adjusting the low-frequency response."
6) KEF Reference 1, TAD ME1 (Will work in my room but lack of enthusiasm for them)
My understanding of the sound characteristics of my list from musical-to-detailed sound (left to right): Harbeth, Vandersteen, Yamaha, TAD, Magico, KEF, Paradigm. Some rounding error likely present.
@tobaccoleafpie Are u referring to ALL of the floor standers on my list or just a specific one?
One way to alleviate the frustration of not being able to drive the office speaker to the max ability is to have an equal or better system downstairs in the rather large space which is a playroom at the moment. That will take some lottery ticket luck and also a bit more time for my toddler to get a bit older. I need to share his playroom with my big rig.
@yyzsantabarbara . If you do get the Treo's, I don't think you will be 'frustrated' by their performance in your office. The best part is when they can be moved to the larger room, you can get the Vandy subs and be as close to a Quatro at a fraction of the cost(buying used, that is). Bob
This afternoon I skipped work and went to audition the Paradigm Persona 5F. I was going to listen with Simaudio gear but they also had the Lyngdorf 2170 and I decided to have a demo of that unit instead of buying it blind from my remote dealer.
Room was about 2x the size of my office (likely even bigger). They did not have the smaller Persona 3F which is what I would want for my room. They hooked up the Lyngdorf to the Persona 5F instead and we had a listen. The sales guy never had demoed the Lyngdorf and Persona line together. They usually use Mac and sometimes Simaudio. We played 1 song from Vanessa Fernandez and I looked at the sales guy and asked is this the way the Persona should sound. I wanted to run out of the room, it was way too bright. He said something is wrong. It turned out that the Lyngdorfs sub connection was turned on and we were missing the low end. I have recently started to listen to this singer on my KEF LS50 system and have a general understanding how she should sound.
That was fixed and we listened again with all the Lyngdorf DSP turned off. The room was rather good so I wanted to hear the system without Room Perfect to see how the amp sounded. That was one of the issues I was concerned about in my original topic posting. The Lyngdorf was not calibrated for Room Perfect in that room with the Persona 5F, so today, it was not possible to hear RP even if I wanted too.
The sound was not that "rewarding" for a lack of better audiophile terminology, it just was not that great. So I asked the sales guy again is this what the Persona can do and he said it is not the best he has heard it. He thought maybe the Lyngdorf was under powered for the 5F. Before we called it a day we had one more configuration to go. That was to use the RCA pre-amp out of the Lyngdorf to the XLR input of a Simaudio 860A amp. Now we were in business with sound quality.
The sound of the Persona 5F was stunning with the Simaudio. The harshness was gone, the sound we incredible to listen to. Layered, spooky holographic, and large sound-stage. One disk I thought that would highlight the holographic sound I was witnessing was Emmylou Harris’s WREAKING BALL. I not sure if this is a real good recording but it has some severe atmospheric effects to the sound. We played the second cut and I was drawn into the sound so much that I began to visual Emmylou singing in a moving car. The Daniel Lanois studio effects on that track gave me that totally unexpected sensation of movement. I have heard this disk for years but not to this level of involvement. The other tracks I heard also had some great coherent sound quality to it.
I get it why they say the Persona line has a spooky holographic sound. I am a believer. I was interested in hearing this speaker because I thought it (or the 3F) as a direct competitor to the Magico A3. I thought that the BE tweeter and mid of the Persona may give it an edge in coherence. That is exactly what I heard. I played the same tracks as on the Magico A3 and I liked the sound appreciably better on the Persona 5F. So the Magico is now dropped off my list for consideration. That is just me, others may have a different take on these 2. However, I am not sure if I could listen to the Persona for 8 to 10 hours a day. I need a DSP configured demo in my home to know for sure.
I am not too enamored by the amplification on the Lyngdorf 2170 (maybe the Lyngdorf 3400 is much better). However, I am not willing to pay the price for the 3400 to find out. So I am now looking at alternatives.
1) There is a Macintosh DSP unit that only does DSP and is supposed to be the exact same licensed technology as in the Lyngdorf. The Simaudio 390 network player would be connected to the Mac and then a separate amp would also be used. I am not sure about the order of connections. I will demo this if my research leads me in this direction. I would not be wasting money on amplification with the Simaudio 390 since it does not have any.
2) Buy the 2170 to use just for the DSP and the preamp functionality (which worked beautifully with the Simaudio amp). Add a separate amp. Wasteful solution because I am throwing away the amplification of the Lyngdorf.
3) Investigate the recommended DSP network player from the dealer.
I have never heard of the DSP features on the Linn. It sounds rather interesting. They even have a separate unit in this system to make speaker drivers operate in PHASE. This is supported for a couple of speakers on my list (maybe not important, do not know yet):
Vivid Kaya 45 Harbeth SHL5+
I imagine the Persona 3F and the Yamaha NS5000 would be eventually supported. They already support other Paradigm and Yamaha speakers.
The dealer had the top of the line Linn DSP system with the active stand mount monitors and it sounded rather good. I liked the Persona 5F better but the issue here was the DSP capabilities and not comparing the speakers.
One thing for certain is that I will NOT get a stand mount speaker, that ship has sailed. Today’s demo sealed the deal for me. So the KEF Reference 1 and TAD ME1 are both out.
This Persona demo has made me even more interested in the Yamaha NS5000 which has all 3 drivers, tweeter, mid, and bass all made from the same material that is marketed as better than the Persona’s BE material. It is also supposed to be a very sweet sounding speaker good for very long hours of play. Similar in that characteristic to the Harbeth and Vandersteen. I will hear the Harbeth but now likely only after I have selected my DSP engine.
I will ask for a home demo of the Lyngdorf or whatever DSP engine I buy.
A different way to do DSP from the Lyngdorf approach.
Why does Space Optimisation not use a microphone measurement?The aim of Space Optimisation is to remove the effects of your room, in order to uncover the unique acoustic characteristics of your speakers; after all, this is what you fell in love with when buying your speakers. In order to do this, Space Optimisation needs to understand both the interactions between your speakers and room and the unique acoustic characteristics of your speakers; the unique acoustic characteristics of your speakers are then subtracted from the interactions between your speakers and room, leaving only the effects of your room.
An acoustic measurement of the interactions between your speakers and room can have many sources of error which may affect the accuracy and repeat-ability of the measurement, including: the choice of measurement stimulus, such as MLS or a log chirp; external noise, such as traffic noise and vibration; quality and calibration of the microphone, which can introduce distortion; and the microphone location, which can be sensitive to within a few centimetres. The use of acoustic modelling removes these sources of error: the model can apply an ideal impulse as stimulus; the modelling domain is free from noise; the model can use an ideal microphone; and the listening location is well-defined. It can thus be seen that acoustic modelling has a clear advantage over acoustic measurement in understanding the interactions between your speaker and room.
The unique acoustic characteristics of your speakers depend on many factors, including: the shape and size of the drive units and ports; the constructive and destructive interference between the drive units, ports and any cabinet-edge diffraction sources; and the angle between the listening location and your speakers. Therefore, a simple on-axis anechoic measurement of your speakers is insufficient information; what is actually required is an anechoic measurement with your speakers in the exact same configuration as you have them in your home. While some manufacturers do publish anechoic measurements of their speakers, both on- and off-axis, it is extremely unlikely that they will have performed an anechoic measurement of your speakers in the exact same configuration as you have them in your home. The acoustic modelling of such a scenario is, however, straightforward; the model can simply turn your room into an anechoic chamber to obtain the unique acoustic characteristics of your speakers in the exact same configuration as you have them in your home. It can thus be seen that acoustic modelling once again has a clear advantage over acoustic measurement in understanding the unique acoustic characteristics of your speakers.
From the above, it is clear that acoustic modelling is the best approach to Space Optimisation.
The original version of this software debuted in 2015, but this latest version is an intriguing and more complex alternative to the kind of mic-operated auto equalisation systems we’re used to seeing on modern AV amplifiers. While some users could get decent results, it needs training and experience.
The new version can work with any shape of room, no matter how uneven. It will accommodate the effects of windows and doors, and even the changes in air pressure due to temperature fluctuations.
Space Optimisation also takes into account the behaviour of your speakers. Linn has built-up a large database with the detailed measured results of a wide range of speakers, including their electrical characteristics as well as physical aspects such as the distance of the drive units from the ground. This information, plus all the data of the room’s walls and construction, is crunched and the DSM’s output tailored accordingly to deliver what Linn feels is the optimum sound. Clever stuff.
There is also a RP-1 Lyngdorf unit, which is a preamp with DSP, EQ curves and crossover. No amp. No DA. I use it a lot. You may find one used for a little more than 1K. No manual dsp setting though. Or have a look at the more expensive DEQX. I also believe ARC2 is great.
Vanessa Fernandez gives an ok listening all in all. But her voice is not sweet at all on most of her recordings. Rather sharp and forced when she gets louder. No Roberta Flack there :-) Maybe just bad mics... If you found it sweet then the system was, in my opinion, colouring it.
@yyzsantabarbara , The whole DSP/DEQX stuff seems to me a bit much. Though I can understand the concept, I just don't see why you have to go through hoops to get 'perfect' sound. Just my opinion... I also wonder why, considering that you can tailor the sound to the room, that you can't take any speaker and tune it to the sound you like? Like make a Magico sound like a Persona, or at least closer? Bob
@gdnrbob It’s not about that at all. It would be quite impossible. It’s about giving the speakers a chance to present their best, mostly in the bass and low-mid were the room interacts the most. I mean - they were not exactly build to play music in your listening room at precisely your listening spot. It’s a simple way to more fairly compare the true sound of different speakers.
It’s a real relief when the muddy and freq. wise uneven sound from all room interactions, resonances and standing waves is reduced with a professional correction system. Some also are supposed to work with the phase issue. Naturally, you should try to treat your room and work with your speakers placement as much possible before you use any dsp.
The Anti-Mode 2.0 may be the cheapest and most practical way to experience this. Gives you the opportunity to set the upper freq. for dsp. 500 Hz is standard.
Note though that the resulting correction is rather depending of where you put the mic. So you may not like the first try.
@gosta You are correct about Vanessa Fernandez and her recordings, the dealer mentioned the same thing to me about the recording I selected. The recording sounded bad with the Lyngdorf amp (bright), then with the Simaudio amp, the brightness was gone. I am not sure if I would call it sweet sounding either. I was easily able to determine this by the physical reaction inside my ears. With the Lyngdorf amplification my ears were feeling some pressure or irritant with the Simaudio the music was pain free and fun to listen, I would not say it was sweet.
I do think the Lyngdorf preamp stage has tremendous potential for me. It sounded really good direct to the Simaudio. The Linn SELEKT that I researched last night is a direct competitor to the Lyngdrof. In both price and features. It does the DSP in a different way (see my post above).
The dealer that I went to see yesterday is also a Yamaha dealer and he is a little bummed that the NS5000 is not being distributed in the USA. The Canadian dealer is also a Persona and Yamaha dealer so I am going to pick his brain on the differences between the 2 units.
The USA dealer I went to see yesterday has the Arc2, Room Perfect, and SPACE optimization DSP engines. He also has the non-DSP Simaudio 390 Network player along with the Macintosh DSP unit that has licensed the Lyngdorf Room Perfect DSP. He will be my pre-amp dealer because I am almost certain I will need DSP since I am 100% going for a floor stander, being true to the title of this tread. No stand mounts for the office.
This search has now become a little more interesting because a few amps that I want to try now become viable or needed (an integrated is out). These include the following:
- Benchmark AHB2 (should sound great with the Yamaha, Harbeth, and Vandersteen) - KRELL XD 125 - CODA (I was looking at getting more Class A for my $$) - Pass Labs (spoke with the guys at Reno Hifi and prices are doable) - Mark Levinson (a little expensive but agreeable sound) - Simaudio (maybe, if I go with the 390 network player + the Macintosh DSP)
Amps are a little bit more fun and easier to evaluate. Less complications, the DSP stuff is not for the faint of heart.
BTW - is the RP-1 Lyngdorf using the latest and greatest DSP tech from Lyngdorf or is it older Lyngdorf tech? The key to this question I believe is the Texas instruments chip and the software algorithms.
I also searched on the dealer music system to find a Lou Rawls song. I have recently started listening to his deep catalog and I love that guys baritone voice. Unfortunately, I could not find that song and I need to take my glasses next time. I think he is at the level of Roberta Flack.
@gdnrbob The Lyngdorf cannot make one speaker sound like another. It retains a speakers signature sound and tailors it to the acoustical space that it is placed in. I am a laymen with regards to the latest DSP tech but this is as how I understand it.
while I absolutely adore Wrecking Ball, I would use Wayfaring Stranger from Roses in the Snow...and then transition right into Mean Eyed Cat from Mr. Cash on Unchained....crank that one up...
btw apparent stage depth on Wayfaring should be like 20’ using the TREO CT....yowsa...
@yyzsantabarbara , Yes, thanks for clarifying things. I know that everyone's room isn't the 'perfect' room by a long shot, but I think a good speaker manufacturer takes this into consideration and produces a product that should sound good in as many rooms as possible. Hence, my love of the Vandy's. DSP and all the other stuff is icing on the cake. IMHO.
@tomic601 Thanks for the demoing tunes. I am not too good on remembering audiophile demo music but I do have a few standards that test the kid enjoyment factor in me, such as Rush - YYZ | Tom Sawyer and Rolling Stones - Slave. If the those tunes don't sound good or make me happy then there is no point in continuing. I should really keep a list of speaker test tunes like the ones you mentioned.
I am thinking over the pros and cons of the DSP stuff I heard and even though I hated the amp section of the Lyngdorf I am inclined to buy the even more expensive Lyngdorf 3400 just for the DSP preamp and the XLR analogue out to the external amps. That part sounded extremely good to me during the demo. I will work with the dealer to figure this out, but it is good to have a solution in the back pocket. Lyngdorf seems to have discontinued some of the DSP products that do not have the amplification built-in. The dealer seems to prefer the Linn SELEKT DSM system. I will see if he can convince me why that maybe better. The Linn has the perfect configuration for the digital preamp options I need. The Anthem ARC2 should also be discussed with the dealer.
As much as I loved the Persona 5F I am thinking it is may not be a long hours office type of speaker. I was a little under the weather yesterday so I need to do another demo of the Persona. I will listen to this again with DSP on at the dealer maybe in a smaller room. It did not help to mess up my head in the beginning with those bad sound issues. I also need to eat a meal before I demo, not the best way to do this eating chocolates.
So down to 5 speakers:
Harbeth HLS5+ (not a small stand mount) Vandersteen Treo CT Paradigm Persona 3F (does not sound like KEF to me) Vivid Kaya 45 (Sounds a bit like KEF to me) Yamaha NS5000 (not a small stand mount)
Very curious of what you end up with. Please keep on posting. Would give a lot to hear those speakers. They're a bit different I suppose. Not sure why you got such a bad impression of the Lyngdorf. Find their amps (I have the 2400 model) very neutral with the capacity to drive problematic speakers without any stress. The xover functionality is very important for me since I use big ATCs as mains but also a lot of other speakers which I pair with the ATC 15 inch woofers. Recently though I have begun to use the new and very cheap XTZ Edge d class amp to drive some speakers with very good result (which means I don't think of the amp at all - it's just a wire with gain).
@tomic601 You are mocking my audio demoing skills. The chocolate was good though. BTW - I sent the following chocolates to a few friends and family last week. They are incredible (from Japan). Bring these home next time you buy some speakers and you are OK,
@gosta It was not just me that found the amp lacking on the Lyngdorf. Both the dealer and I thought it sounded rather poor. We actually both cheered when we heard the same song on the Simaudio.
Some awesome news by the dealer I went to see in Woodland Hill, CA Shelley's Stereo
REGARDING THE LINN/LYNGDORF A/B DEMO
After you left the store I was actually thinking that I should get the SELEKT, TDAI, and even the Anthem STR amps all into the same space, calibrate them and then have you listen to each one on and off. So I definitely want to do that, and I think your idea of having them in our “conference room” for this is probably best since it is a tough room.
Their conference room has 2 large banks of glass walls and is a bit bigger than my office. If the DSP can tame that room then DSP works. This will be an incredible demo. Not sure when I will schedule this.
Absolutely never mock a fellow audiophile who provides an ironclad excuse !!!!
truth be told, starving 5 hours into auditioning power amps at Audio Alternative ( now Hi-Fi Buys ) we made a desperation run to Varsity for chili dogs...
If someone is saying Treo's are boomy, they haven't heard them. It's that simple. Spoke with someone this week with the Lyngdorf and Treo CT and he loves them together.
If you are looking at a stand mounted speaker, I"m shocked you aren't looking at the Proac line. They too hit every box you are looking at.
@ctsooner All of the speakers I have focused on I have heard, except for the Harbeth and the Yamaha. Of the ones I have heard I think the Persona is my favorite. I could easily live with any of the others in my office. I am not too worried about the speakers. I am also not worried about the separate external amplification or network player. All of these are of high quality that I am looking at. Almost any permutation of the speakers, amps, Network players I have identified would make for a good system (in a big room).
I am only concerned about 1 thing now and that is making a big speaker fit into the small room in a manner so that I can enjoy a good deal of the systems capability. To that end I have done a few things such as cleaning up the room of furniture and getting acoustic treatments. The last thing I am doing, which is to explore DSP, is something that the DSP guys are saying will make my goal a reality.
If I stay in my room lane and get an appropriate sized speaker (small stand mount) I may not need DSP. However, I am trying to do fit an inappropriate sized speaker into this room. The DSP demo I have scheduled will tell me if I have solved the problem.
With regards to the Treo CT I have only heard them with Bryston Cubed stack. The Lyngdorf issue I described was the amplification stage driving the Persona 5F, it was not good. However, the Lyngdorf preamp section impressed the heck out of me and is my leading contender for those duties. The dealer did mention to me that the combo we discovered, Lyngdorf preamp+Simaudio amp was the best he has heard the Persona 5F.
That Persona demo so impressed me that I am now questioning the purchase of the Blade for the downstairs. A large Persona speaker, such as the 9H, is heavier and hard from my kid to move. The Blades are rather easier to dislodge. The front facing woofers on the Persona maybe easier to place compared to the side firing Blade drivers. I still like the Blade more but from a practicality standpoint the Persona is compelling for my downstairs. This is a digression from this thread.
+ Wavelet. Now, this is interesting. Didn't know of.
@yyzsantabarbara
No love for Legacy speakers?
When testing the Lyngdorf room correction I would advice you to try the different built-in eq curves. I mostly listen to the one named "Open" which decrease the lower register 2db from 200Hz and down. I often find the "Normal" setting a little too bass heavy. Taking away information from lower mid. That's why I'd like the 3400 model with added manual settings possibility.
@jackd I heard the Legacy top of the line speakers in what I thought looked like a very good hotel room a few years ago. They had the DSP setup but it was not too my tastes, the bass was way too heavy. Now what that means is that the guy setting up the system had different preferences from me.Given the accolades to the Legacy speakers I doubt that was a good setup. However, I have never considered Legacy ever since that demo.
The best part about that demo was meeting the son of PS Audio founder. He started telling me about ROON and to not buy anything until I heard it. It was 6 months prior to release of ROON. I bought a lifetime membership just from that guys recommendation on the first week of release and I am very happy I did.
The Linn SELEKT DSM that I mentioned above is a direct competitor to the Lyngdorf. It is more modular in design with more ambition, they have the something called the EXACT system and also some speaker matching system (including 3rd party speakers). Somewhat like the Devialet SAM concept (SAM is not DSP). The Linn DSP implementation is not with a microphone, but uses detailed room measurements Lyngdorf says they are a 3-D microphone setup. It will be interesting to see which, if any, sounds better.
I have not heard anyone talking about the Linn SELEKT on A'gon like they do for the Lyngdorf. The dealer prefers the Linn, Lyngdorf, and Arc2 in that order, but the also sell more elaborate Linn systems using SPACE Optimization as the basic framework. So that may have something to do with the preference.
@gosta I was listening to the Lyngdorf 2170. The dealer was wondering if it was under powered for the Persona 5F. I am thinking no, and we were playing Vanessa Rodriguez track which dud not have too much dynamics when I said this is not good sound. The 3400 is the unit I would consider, mainly for the XLR analog out. I also understand that there are more eq features but those features have a smaller effect than the base Room Perfect.
@tomic601 Since u like Emmylou Harris. How about listening to that second track on Wreaking Ball on the Treo CT and give a description of the sound you hear. It is not about soundstage or imaging on this track but the sound effects. I really had never heard it before in my Revel Salon 1, Thiel SCS4. I don't remember listening to it on my Audience 1+1 V3 .
All these speakers are sold.
I am listening to that track now on my LS50 and I do hear what I heard at the demo but it is not prominent in the LS50. If I did not know to listen for it I would not have noticed. What I am describing is an atmospheric effect. To me that effect gives me the visualization of some sort of movement or motion, like the singer in a moving car. Daniel Lanois was on a bit of a roll in those days, Emnylous Harris, Robbie Robertson, U2, Peter Gabriel.
BTW - this recording is giving me a bit of ear fatigue in my room with the LS50's. Need to check this CD out after the GIK treatments.
I’m interested to. There’s so many "effects" in that track. Can you say what time it starts? She harkles after 11 sec and prepares to sing after 19 sec and start singing after 40 sec. Is it somewhere there or is it later? The whole song?
That advice for Wayfaring Stranger with Emmylou was excellent. Really fine recording. Her voice was fantastic in those days. The Wrecking Ball cd is a recording that separates speakers/systems. But her voice is harder now, always interesting but a little tireing. I would say that the live cd Spy Boy, mostly based on Wrecking Ball, is one of the best live recordings for sound quality (and music). Sometimes terrifying music for the speakers at high volume (Deeper Well) but still no ear fatigue - they bleed instead.. :-) But you will need something else than LS50 for these cd’s (sorry - but I’m sure you are aware of that). Flat bass capacity extremely important. Fine test for your office room.
Have listened to Rebecka Flack cd "Quiet fire" today. What a gem. Voice, bass, piano, choir, orchestra and a very very deep soundstage. This is real music.
All I wanted to mention was that if you find the Lyngdorf room corrected bass a little to much, or would like a little more forward low-mid, don’t miss to ask your dealer to try the "Open 1" and/or "Open 2" eq curves.
@gosta I noticed it a little after the start and through out the song. I noticed the song iitle is "GOODBYE". I did not know that during the demo. The dealer skipped to that song after HE did not like the first one. So maybe there is something to the song title and the effect that I seem to have hallucinated.
probably semantics but I would not use term atmospheric for 2 nd track...I played it thru ROON off my NAS...I will listen again this eve or next on the 7’s also. I will say w my multitrack working headset on, the Treo allow a pretty easy discection of the layers...but I love and appreciate that in a musical non fatiguing speaker...my bias..
not to switch gears on ha..but give All my Tears a spin also..from wrecking ball. Then for drive and impact try Same cut from the great Julie Miller her version on Broken Things...
and yes, Spyboy is quite nice....
and while we are on the Daniel Lanois track....don’t forget his work with Neil Young - more of a fatigue test...ha.
but then dont miss his Daniels album Acadie
one last thought..try the group Wayfaring Strangers.....the album Wayfaring Stranger for atmospherics......stellare muscians and IMO a fantastic recording....
BTW - don't take my comment on the dealer skipping the track as a negative thing. It was a collaborative thing with he and I to get the sound correct with the Persona 5F. A real fun demo.
I am trying to convince my brother-in-law to go to the Canadian dealer and demo the Yamaha, he lives close by If he cannot my dad can once he arrives back from his winter retreat.
@tomic601 Thanks for the tune suggestions. Listening to Emmylou this morning segued me to some Linda Ronstadt. Have not listened to these ladies in a while.
Linda with Aaron one of my long-time favourites. Some tracks a little bright though (when you play high high volume). Aaron's "Warm your heart" is one of my references.
Came across the group Wayfaring Strangers also. Lots of recordings of that track. Liked, of course, Eva Cassidy's versions. The sound of the group was very big, a bit too much in my room, probably got some room nodes working. Will listen more.
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