Bi-wires links for speakers ?
One very easy thing to try - then determine if you hear a difference Connect your Speaker wires to the Upper set of terminals letting the jumpers feed the bottom ones - then reverse it attach speaker wires to lower terminals letting the jumpers feed the upper ones. Make sure you tighten the cables properly each time (this DOES make a difference) If you hear no difference the jumpers do not matter Good Listening Peter |
"No worries about jumpers... manufacturers would not compromise their signature sound by not having the metal links replaced by a 3" wire if it could make a difference." Total BS, I have some very expensive speakers [$12000 and up] and none of them used anything but basic material] I have tried many jumpers [Cardas etc] and none are as good as silver wire, single strand. Anyone who cannot hear the difference between ICs speaker cables and yes PCs is not listening! |
"No worries about jumpers... manufacturers would not compromise their signature sound by not having the metal links replaced by a 3" wire if it could make a difference." Total BS, I have some very expensive speakers [$12000 and up] and none of them used anything but basic material] I have tried many jumpers [Cardas etc] and none are as good as silver wire, single strand. Anyone who cannot hear the difference between ICs speaker cables and yes PCs is not listening! |
Since this post is fresh I now have just finished my ability to listen to jumpers made of the same cable and running single wires to the speakers. Here is the catch....the bass terminals I am trying a cheaper run made by the same manufacture and the more expensive to the midrange/tweeter terminals. FYI the cable is Stage lll Mantikor to the midrange and Stage lll Magnus Prime to the bass. Both use silver/palladium ribbon conductors with a slightly different layout. My Jadis monoblocks have 4 output terminals giving you a hint from France. Knghifi was spot on above in my case. What I am hearing is a much better timed speaker with a bigger soundstage and separation of the passage. Bass is better integrated and there is no smearing as in the jumpers. You might not note the smearing until you discover it without. As good as the jumpers were and made with the same conductors my Gamut RS7i like the direct power from the amp. via wire in two single runs. I wished I could try two Mantikors but funds don't allow it. I will be switching the cheaper cable to the midrange terminals and seeing the results also. This hobby is really about experimentation and being crazy over it. This is my findings as YMMV. |
Wires, Wires, Wires! Something so small that creates such a conundrum... Reading Stereophile back when Sam Tellig was still on staff. He made the (obviously jokingly) remark about speaker wires: "Look inside your speakers and use the same wire. If it's good enough for the inside, it's good enough for the outside!" Hahaha!!! Fwiw, I use two runs, bi-wired, from my Krell to my Vandersteens, and IMO bi-wiring does sound better than single wiring. Ymmv. |
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My dealer was suprise too from this huge impact I really didn’t execpt it at all neither do him but that’s what happened.maybe the jumpers supplied with the speakers are very poor quality, or maybe because all my cables now are from the same brand and the same series this allowing better signal transmission from the amplification to the speakers . I really don’t know what happened. |
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1. Throw away immediately the biwiring standard terminals supply with the speakers and get descent Bi-wire cables links. I don't know that I would recommend this. Someday you may want to sell those speakers. @OP-It seems like you have your mind made up. Why bother posting this thread? How do you figure? He started a thread asking if anyone had heard a difference by replacing the stock jumpers that come with the speakers with quality aftermarket jumpers. He got a couple responses to his original question. Granted, he got more responses touting bi-wiring, which is NOT what he was asking about. I understand that is how things go on these forums. Folks come here asking about their amplifier, and others will recommend that they get new speakers instead. That doesn't mean that his original question was worthless, or went unanswered. He asked a direct question, filtered out all of the off-topic answers, then tried on his own, and he is happy with the change in sound in his system. That would seem to be what the forums are for. |
Yes it’s really amazing I never would believe if I didn’t try it myself. My 2 lessons here : 1. Throw away immediately the biwiring standard terminals supply with the speakers and get descent Bi-wire cables links. 2. It is very important to have synergy between cables the most easy way to achieve it is by using the same brand and level/series for all the cables in your system including the bi-wire links should be at least match quality of speaker cable. |
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Most of the high end amplifiers do not have bi-wiring option and that’s saying something about the questionable reliability of bi-wiring method,Ever heard of spades + bananas? Basically doubling the number of conductors so I don’t understand how it increases reliability issues? So using heavier gauge cables will cause reliability issues? Personally I think it’s not more than a voodoo thing.Yep, that’s your discretion! |
Most of the high end amplifiers do not have bi-wiring option and that’s saying something about the questionable reliability of bi-wiring method, Personally I think it’s not more than a voodoo thing. The best is bi-amplifying with completely separate set of amps and cables unfortunately this method is expensive. |
The only thing better is two single runs of speaker cable from the amp. end to the speaker terminals. My amp. will accommodate two runs with 4 terminals on the amp. end. I have yet to try it due to the cost of the cable but I do intend to try it someday.I tried 2 single runs on 2 different speakers (Eggleston Andra II and TAD E1) and it's NO contest. Most obvious improvement is separation between passages eliminating congestion. I will NEVER go back to jumpers or bi-wire cables. |
I will attest to the post of fossda and ithak1969. I have a single run of expensive good sounding wire to my Gamut RS7i speakers. I ran the cheap links sent with the speakers and they severely degraded the sound. I ended up with custom made jumpers from the speaker cable manufacturer with the same layout/conductors as the cable itself. Sonic bliss and total seamlessness. The only thing better is two single runs of speaker cable from the amp. end to the speaker terminals. My amp. will accommodate two runs with 4 terminals on the amp. end. I have yet to try it due to the cost of the cable but I do intend to try it someday. gwalt |
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Hi I borrowed the Tellurium Ultra Black bi-wire links cables from my dealer took out the standard metal strip jumpers which came with the speakers and I couldn't believe my ears : the soundstage suddenly became huge the speakers completely disappeared ! There is a substantial boost in the bass much more massive, deaper and tight. The little bit brightness I had gone completely all is more natural and calm, Further more my system became more detailed and accurate. I really don't know what this company is doing with its cables but it's superb. This links are certainly not going back to my dealer ! |
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Before we go crazy over 4 inches of wire, try pulling the plate off the speaker. You may be surprised at the rather pedestrian wire that runs from the terminal to the speaker elements. Several feet in larger speakers. And in the crossover circuits there are caps and resistors that have tin leads that are an inch long on either side of the component. And coils that are who knows how many feet of plain copper wire rolled up. And in some the signal path runs through circuit board traces. So, how is replacing 4 inches of wire on the outside going to improve anything? if you hear a difference it could only be subtractive, because there is no way to overcome these internal shortcomings. It may sound different, but not better. And that Gentlemen is My humble opinion. |
Personally I DO NOT believe that bi-wiring can make any difference if someone really wants to improve the sound he should bi-amplifying ; more power=more control or just upgrading the ampflication (single wiring),But I do suspect that the standard stock jumpers provided with the speakers might degrade the sound so replacing them Should at least match quality of speaker cable.Is your BELIEVE based on theory or personal experience? From my experience, best result is using 2 separate runs for TRUE bi-wiring. Doubled the cost but well worth it to my ear. |
Personally I DO NOT believe that bi-wiring can make any difference if someone really wants to improve the sound he should bi-amplifying ; more power=more control or just upgrading the ampflication (single wiring),But I do suspect that the standard stock jumpers provided with the speakers might degrade the sound so replacing them Should at least match quality of speaker cable. |
@gdnrbob, I'm curious, if you feel that wire is wire, and it all sounds the same, then wire would bi-wiring help? I am not suggesting that Vandersteen's opinion should not be heard or tried. I have bi-wired before myself. I AM saying that Richard Vandersteen is not god, and his word is not the final solution for all. His word is an idea, that is worth trying. How much weight Richard Vandersteens word will have on any one individual would probably go hand in hand with how much one values his speakers. For me, if RV was the audio god that you seem to think he is, his speakers would sound better than they do to me. RV is certainly entitled to his opinion, as are you and I. You agree with RV, I do not. That is the way of the world on these forums. There is NO CORRECT opinion, only opinions. |
@jmcgrogan2 Most people cannot afford own $8K worth of speaker cable. And, none that do should admit it. The question, in the real world, where budget comes into play, is what sounds better? Two lesser cables, or one superior cable with jumper?You quote implies that only the costliest/best/most transparent/(insert your adjective) wire is going to provide decent sound production and doing anything less not worth doing. If so, I disagree. Given the OP's $3K speakers and McIntosh gear, the cost of true biwiring should not be an issue. How much difference he will notice in biwiring is something only he can determine. My point in directing him to Vandersteen's website is that Richard has been making speakers for 40 years and that if he can hear a difference, then those who ask for guidance should give his opinion weight. B |
FWIW, gdnrbob is a dealer, though he doesn't like to disclose that information, as it may show his bias. So obviously he will think that if you bi-wire you will spend twice as much on cables as you were planning to.So what! Everybody has a bias and if purchasing decision is based on a free open forum post, get what they deserve. |
@gdnrbob, I see that you seem to be a big fan of Richard Vandersteen. His speakers have never really moved me personally. I realize that he has many fans though. That said, I think the key 4 words in Richard’s quote are "GIVEN SIMILAR WIRE QUALITY". That is where my experiences have changed. I do not disagree that bi-wiring is superior if using the same cables for single wire and bi-wire. The question, in the real world, where budget comes into play, is what sounds better? Two lesser cables, or one superior cable with jumper? I will use my current cables as an example. I am running JPS Labs Aluminata speaker cables ($7799 per 6 foot pair) with Aluminata jumpers ($860). I CANNOT afford to run the Aluminata in bi-wire configuration. I CAN afford to run JPS Labs Superconductor 3 ($3099 per 6 foot pair) in bi-wire configuration. I have heard both ways, and in my system, the Aluminata sound better single wired with jumper than the bi-wired Superconductor 3. I have noted this to be true with other brands as well. Obviously YMMV. So my point does NOT really vary from RV’s, because he is assuming that all wires are of equal quality. This is a theoretical (fantasy?) world view. My view is more of a real world view, where cost IS a factor. I think if cost were not a factor, we would all be bi-amping and bi-wiring with the top of the line amps and cables. |
@jmcgrogan2 : FWIW, gdnrbob is a dealer, though he doesn't like to disclose that information, as it may show his bias. So obviously he will think that if you bi-wire you will spend twice as much on cables as you were planning to.I don't know where you get your information, but allow me to disabuse you of the notion that I am a dealer. As a matter of fact, my 'bias' is confirmed by the observations of Richard Vandersteen who has clearly remarked, many times, of the benefits of bi wiring. In fact, you can read it for yourself on his webpage. @itzhak-From Vandersteen Q and A: Don (3/07/07): Richard, Are quality jumpers with a good quality cable superior to internally bi-wire cables? What about running two sets of separate cables from amp to speakers? I really enjoy my 2CE Signatures. Thanks, Answer: HELLO DON, THIS HAS BEEN BEATEN TO DEATH ON THIS FORUM SO HERE WE GO. JUMPERS WITH MONO WIRE OF EQUAL QUALITY WILL ALWAYS SOUND BETTER THAN INTERNAL BI-WIRE. TWO SEPARATE WIRES FROM AMP TO SPEAKER IS TRUE BI-WIRE AND GIVEN SIMILAR WIRE QUALITY WILL BE SUPERIOR. You can read his rationale in the Treo Manual:http://vandersteen.com//media/files/Manuals/treo_manual.pdf Though you have different speakers, the same concept applies. Bob |
I am always surprised (yet again) by those who insist "it doesn't make a difference" . when it does. Either they have a crap system that not much makes a difference or they have cloth ears. or probably both. After trying various Nordost up to the Frey, I ended up with the always reliable Chord Signature jumpers. In my travels in this area I seem also to remember an odd fact I think Proac mentioned, that it made no difference if you jumped up or down (so to speak). |
I have found best option is to get rid of cheap jumpers supplied with speakers. Upgrade will be well worth it. Should at least match quality of speaker cable. Nordost has done testing and believes a single quality run with matching jumpers to other speaker terminal improves sound over big wire option. I have recently moved from big wire Nordost to single run Valhalla with matching jumper. |
For the same dollar amount, you can buy a set of single wires and some short jumpers made from the same wire, or a double set of wires one or two steps lower down the product line of a given manufacturer. So unless there's something very special going on with the amp or the speaker, I conclude it's better to go with single wiring. I went with Wireworld, that offers those short links in matching wire. |
Highs - sounded more extended. First time I installed them in Paradigm Studio/60 v2 speakers that came with stock bent plate jumpers. Now I have them with Hyperion HPS-938 that came with long insulated wire jumpers. These speakers are three way with separate posts for the tweeter, midrange and woofer. I use Acoustic Zen Satori shotgun biwire to woofer and the tweeter with midrange extended from the tweeter with 4" AQ jumpers. I believe that shorter connection without insulation is better and I think it sounded better. My upper shotgun biwire comes to tweeter, and not to midrange, because in many posts it was recommended that way (I cannot hear the difference). From the technical standpoint certain things might affect sound of the speaker cable like the length, insulation material, purity of the cable, geometry of the cable etc. In case of straight 4" jumpers, there are short, without insulation (the best), made of very pure copper and connected almost in straight line. The only thing that I’m not sure is plating. I bought gold plated version (for practicality) but purists believe, that silver (that might oxidize) plating is better. Silver is much better conductor, but plating is so thin, that it should not make any difference. Interesting to read: http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf |
