Better Records White Hot Stampers: Now the Story Can Be Told!

puppyt:

I have two questions for @millercarbon:

1. How do you clean your records and what equipment do you use?

I use the Walker Enzyme 4step -
1. Normal detergent type wash.
2. Walker Enzyme wash.
3-4. Rinse, rinse.

This was recommended to me by Tom Port. This is what he uses on all his records. Main difference being he uses a very expensive RCM while mine are by hand. I do use a VPI 16.5 but only to suck off the final 2 rinses. The process I use does include a rinse between the washes but it isn’t really a true rinse just tap water so I don’t count that. Also wipe partially dry with a clean towel after each of the first two steps.

Before this I used Disc Doctor. Walker is quite a bit better and if I am honest probably accounts for a fair amount of the difference between a Hot Stamper and any normal audiophiles good clean record. Nowhere near to what some have claimed, that this is all it is, but it is there.

The Walker system is expensive if you buy the full kit. Refills are much cheaper. So I bought the refills, use my own brushes, use my own distilled water, and get virtually all the same results as the kit for a fraction of the price. I am way more frugal than anyone would ever expect of a guy willing to spend $400 on a record. I will spend- but only when I have to, and only when it’s worth it.

2. You’ve mentioned Raven Audio and I am very intrigued by that company. I have a Prima Luna Dialogue HP Premium integrated that I have really enjoyed. Recognizing that Prima Luna is Chinese made while Raven is U.S. made, what are some of the other differences between comparable models from each company? I would prefer to buy U.S. made but that factor alone is not enough for me to switch. Would love to hear your thoughts and those of others.

Without hearing them side by side it is hard to say exactly how they differ. I can tell you though I do not prefer Raven simply because they are made in Texas!

There is a tendency when looking at tube amps to focus on the tubes. Everyone does it. Until you mod a few and then gradually over time determine what really sets them apart is the transformers. The one thing nobody can do anything about and yet it is the beating heart of a tube amp. I don’t know for sure about PL but would bet you a bundle theirs are made in China. The Raven on the other hand are built here in the USA and if you watch the video you can see the look on Dave Thomas’s face when he talks about how this was the one thing he knew they had to do was use those transformers.

So that’s one. Here by the way is the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gcd76DZmbdY I will summarize a few of the high points.

Next to transformers we have connections. Amps made in China are hand soldered. Hand soldering is a skill. It looks simple but it takes great skill to perform a quality solder connection. There’s a point, if not this video then another, where Dave talks about the different levels of quality and what it costs at each level. The really high quality work is more expensive even in China.

Then there is the solder used. People prefer silver solder because of the sound. But consider what this means- even solder has a sound! Use the same solder everywhere and this sound imparts to the component. So Raven uses silver solder, but different types, not all the same solder throughout the amp.

Same for resistors. They use all the same top brands as everyone including PL. Very good high quality resistors. That each impart their own sonic signature. Dave has found by listening that using the same brand resistor three times in a circuit begins to color the sound. So he mixes them up.

At this point I have to ask, have you ever even heard a manufacturer of anything talk about their obsession with sound quality and going into such detail? I know from talking to Keith Herron and some others that it is done. Not saying Dave Thompson is the only one on planet Earth doing this. Which one of the haters will leap at in an instant. Not saying that at all. Just pointing this out as something I consider highly relevant in deciding what to buy.

We’re talking tube amps here so we have to talk tubes. Dave Thompson has socked away a huge collection of very high quality NOS tubes. He is the tube equivalent of a vintner with the finest wines from all over the world stashed down in his cellar. Listen to the part of the video where he talks about how they thought it would be one tube but listening tests led them to select another. Compare to PL where they treat tubes as totally interchangeable.

That right there is a key difference. I’m no amp designer but I know enough to understand there are tradeoffs in everything. You build an amp to allow plugging in any tube any condition anywhere you pretty much automatically build an amp that is not optimized for any tube any condition any time. Raven does make the Osprey for people who want to try tube rolling - and with Dave’s extensive selection you will not be shooting in the dark but with his sage guidance. The Osprey can be user-modified to run a lot of different tubes, something Dave can help you do over the phone.

What else? Powder coating. Hard to tell on video but those who have seen them in person are impressed.

Maybe one of the biggest reasons I would go with Raven is I know who I’m dealing with: Dave Thompson. No it is not exactly a one man show but basically it is Dave Thompson. Who is PL? Does anyone even know? Are they Belgian? Chinese? Kevin Deal? Face it, PL is a multi-national corporation with so many layers you never will know.

So like I said before, I do an awful lot of research and due diligence before putting my hard earned dollars on the line.

Not asking anyone to switch. I myself have a Melody, same deal, designed in Australia, made in China. Bought 15 years ago, before the narrative was totally discredited. Now fortunately there’s ample reasons of pure sound and build quality to choose Raven. Being made right here in the USA is just the icing on the cake.

I discovered this thread several days ago and have been reading it slowly throughout the week. Awesome thread and I have thoroughly enjoyed it, even the 3rd grade nitpicking in certain segments. FWIW, I have purchased a couple of albums from Better Records and have been very pleased. In fact I have a copy of Jackson Browne’s “The Pretender” in transit after digging into this topic. So basically reading this thread cost me $300!! It also made me search for the copy of “Year of the Cat” I received as a Christmas present when the album was originally released. I can’t find it! Probably misfiled somewhere.  Anyway, great fun reading all of this. 
I have two questions for @millercarbon:

1. How do you clean your records and what equipment do you use?
2. You’ve mentioned Raven Audio and I am very intrigued by that company.  I have a Prima Luna Dialogue HP Premium integrated that I have really enjoyed. Recognizing that Prima Luna is Chinese made while Raven is U.S. made, what are some of the other differences between comparable models from each company? I would prefer to buy U.S. made but that factor alone is not enough for me to switch. Would love to hear your thoughts and those of others.

Thanks

Make a digital copy first!

People,

you are making me blush.

Now, this was just two guys and one sleeping dog spending evening doing something actually not that important. Your results may be completely different as our sample of this completely statistically insignificant experiment was so small and methods were what they could reasonably be without us feeling silly for taking it too seriously.

Having said that, if there is anyone interested, we can repeat it and double the number of study subjects. If there is anyone who already owns an Emotional Rescue album by the Rolling Stones and is, hopefully, familiar with it beyond "I have heard it before", along with having interest to try for her/himself, let me know.

You know who you are. You bought a record when it came out, danced to some songs in your local disco, do not have to check what the next song will be, etc.

If there is anyone like that who is interested in comparing so, as the OP said, the story can be told, let me know how to mail you this record. You mail it back once you are done.

Anyone up to making millercarbon fret for a couple of weeks? I do not mind if your results are different from ours.

@glupson you were the bright light in this thread. Well done. 

let me offer my condolences, and compliments, having to go to all that trouble only to wind up corroborating every single thing I have been saying. Sometimes darn near word for word.

I cut my lawn yesterday.
Want to take credit for that, too?

au_lait ...

Are you still in Thousand Oaks??

I grew up in Thousand Oaks. Do you mean to tell me the goldmine of digging was under my nose? 10,000 or so records later? That’s much easier than digging through rat poop and mold in old basements around the globe.

Well...almost...🤷‍♂️

"Who’d a thunk this would ever have such a happy ending?"

Hold on. No matter how much you have enjoyed these interactions, we are not providing such endings here.

Who’d a thunk this would ever have such a happy ending? It’s a new day dawning!

Well,

Thanks guys. I did not expect my little experiment would be followed and gather some praises. I appreciate them.

milercarbon,

I apologize for stealing your thread. It was not intentional. Yo still da man.

Nice review, glupson. 

millercarbon,

Thanks for your condolences.

The difference between your and mine approach in reviewing anything is that I comment on things only after I have had some experience with them while you sing accolades before ever laying your eyes, much less ears, on them. It makes my posts tiny little bit more believable despite inevitably being subjective to some extent.

If you paid attention to my posts, you could learn things between the lines. It is even for free.

glupson, nice to read a review without all of the pretentious bull_ _ _ _

mapman,

I take very good care of my things and most of the things are quite clean. I try not to give them a chance to get dirty. I did deeper cleaning this time because thecarpathian and you asked for it. I probably would not have done it otherwise. At the same time, you may be underestimating my attention to detail.

None of the three records used for comparison had been played in forever. My friend had even forgotten he has one in his rack, but I did remember. Get your Emotional Rescue record out and tell us how it seems to you.

tomcy6,

"glupson, would you go out and pick up another 20 copies to test that theorem?"

Well, stern and resolute...NO!!!

German pressing is mine from way back when. It had many many chances to become anything but Hot Stamper. It somehow survived.

I vaguely remember reading that Keith Richards named Emotional Rescue as his least favorite Rolling Stones album. At least at the moment of that interview which was a long time ago.

What does he know...

Broke protocol and read a post and so let me offer my condolences, and compliments, having to go to all that trouble only to wind up corroborating every single thing I have been saying. Sometimes darn near word for word. Way to go, guppy. 

Yes, it does make you a bad audiophile, but you shouldn't give a damn about it.

No. It makes you honest.

A dandy of an assessment with the testing!

Personally, I have yet to shell out $30 bucks for any new vinyl release. So I’m not likely to shell out even more for an old one. But that is just me. I wish all my records could be magically and instantly converted to CD res FLAC and streamed. I’d still keep the records but perhaps never play one again.

Does that make me a bad audiophile?

It may be that the German pressing is also a Hot Stamper and that the two records glupson ruled out immediately are what everyone else is listening to.

glupson, would you go out and pick up another 20 copies to test that theorem?

Thanks Glupson for that nice, detailed, balanced review.

That is about as close as I’ve ever heard Glupson gush about anything hifi! So that record must have been totally awesome!

HE even cleaned the old copies for God’s sake. Well done!

Seriously though, I have ER CD and record. Haven’t spun the record in ages. THE CD is ripped to my library. A favorite track of mine is "She’s So Cold" which frankly sounds great for a recording of its kind and to me is just the Stone’s at their purest rocking/disco-y best! Awesome!

Take note SIr Glupson. This is how to gush on a high end audio site properly! Proper restraint and fairness may get you nowhere.

Also worth noting that mixes can be different on different releases of an album. CD or vinyl. So comparing two copies from two different releases, say one domestic and one foreign, may not necessarily be apples/apples in terms of comparing merely the physical quality of the record as opposed to the mastering that went into the recorded source material.

IS ER available on new vinyl? Probably digitally remastered if so. That versus a "white hot stamper" would be an interesting comparison. I’d wager old geezers would prefer the old copy and young whippersnappers the new one.

I think if it’s being sold as a Hot Stamper A+++ then it should deliver what Better Records is advertising, and it may do that for people who are regular buyers of Hot Stampers. For those who don’t think it does, it can be returned for a refund. If you loaned it to mc, he would probably report that it kept him glued to his seat and that it sounded so good he played it four times over.

I agree with your point that most of the Stones’ recordings are not known for their audiophile quality sound. So again it’s a matter of personal taste.

On another forum, some people dream of a crisp, clear sounding Exile On Main Street while others say that would ruin the record, that the low-fi sound is the artists’ intent.

I think we just need to allow everyone their personal preference and not try to impose ours on others. Stating our preference is fine. We can’t debate much without doing that, but showing a little respect for other opinions doesn’t hurt.

tomcy6,

I realized, my mistake.

I thought that the person who would buy Some Girls might also have Emotional Rescue laying somewhere around. Emotional Rescue was the actual White Hot Stamper in question here. I know, not your usual "audiophile dream material", which I hope makes it even more relevant for real world situation.

I haven't posted about those two albums in this thread, but I do have Some Girls on CD.

tomcy6,

I found it, it was tomic601 with Some Girls.

You guys, or you some girls, are confusing me with your names.

tomcy6,

You are partially correct.

I hear well enough to get through the day, stereo, except for cartridges, was my friend's (we discarded his Ortofon 2M Red), and there is hardly any question about me being a lowlife. As long as there is "life" in that, I guess it is still fine.

The question for a normal audiophile will come down to if the difference is worth the money. Provided the person already has a reasonably good copy of a certain record. That is impossible to decide for others. I just wanted to check if there is a difference between White Hot Stamper and other random copies available. In this case, there was.

Remind me, was it you who has Some Girls? Do you have Emotional Rescue, too?

Well glupson, It is obvious you can’t hear, your stereo is crap, and you are a lowlife in general! Just kidding, just kidding!

Seriously, thanks for doing this comparison and writing up the results for us. I find doing this type of comparison tedious myself.

There does seem to be variation in the way that different audiophiles react to differences in sound. To some, every difference is very significant and every change in sound is better or worse. To others, many changes in sound are just different, not necessarily better or worse, or at least not better or worse enough to get excited about.

We all like those big improvements in sound where one item being compared is clearly better than another, but as changes get smaller or more unclear as to whether what we’re hearing is actually an improvement, many of us decide that the change is not worth the money or effort involved to get that change.

Of course there is no right or wrong in either of these approaches and people should pursue whatever audiophile path brings them enjoyment while leaving them financially solvent.

Thanks again!

Thanks very interesting review and no you are wrong not boring.... 😊

As luck will have it, my friend has a Mobile Fidelity record cleaning solution and brush. I doubt he has ever used it before, though. Maybe I had bought it for him at some point in life.

We, eventually, settled on Soundsmith Othello and Technics EPC-207 as the best of the cartridge bunch we had available. No clear winner between those two. I am sorry if that disappoints anyone. We tried all the cartridges with a few other records to decide what to leave for our experiment.

We (actually I) cleaned old records to the best of our ability. We did not touch the White Hot Stamper. Manually. Made it wet, waited, distilled water, whole eight and a half yards. How good it was may be debatable, but it was the best we could do. All the records looked clean afterwards. German one still looked almost mint while Italian and U.S.A. ones looked clean but obviously used. No real scratches of any kind, just did not look as good as the German one.

Quick screening of those three old records was simple. German copy did sound better. Do not ask me for poetry in explanation. Basically, other two seemed to have narrower range, much less details. Almost like, although not to such a dramatic extent, like having a ball of dust on the stylus. No, stylus was clean. We discarded those two from further comparison as the whole thing needed getting up, playing, getting up, changing, etc. Life is too short for that. The one clearly the best out of three was enough.

White Hot Stamper, looking pristine, was still surprising. There were still, not that loud, crackles between the songs. Not noticeable during the music playing, but they were there. I guess it is inherent to the medium. Going back to how well our records were cleaned under our imperfect conditions, all three of them had about the same level of those crackles as the White Hot Stamper. I guess that cleaning did work somehow and that I take better care of my records than one would expect. Again, with similar level of this minor crackling, German record was much better.

We played the German record first and in its entirety. It was good, you should not ask for much more than that, I think. In particular because this was the Rolling Stones from the pop/disco era. It was not a chamber orchestra. As I had mentioned earlier, it was about real life, real circumstances, real music, real everything. It was not to be a laboratory grade experiment. For that, I recommend Mike Lavigne’s recommendation Dameronia with strings.

Being perfectly satisfied with the old German record from early eighties that had been played in its time quite a bit, we switched to the star of the show.

White Hot Stamper was from the beginning really more of sounds, more of impact, more of bass, more details. Not more of a singer’s voice, but that is how it was recorded/mixed and it probably has nothing to do with the record itself. I cannot say it was night and day and the other record could be called garbage, but comparatively this one was better. Better as in "yes, this one is more" sort of thing. Without direct comparison, one after another, the difference would have probably not been that noticeable. Partly because of the recorded material, I believe. Having a task to compare them so close, White Hot Stamper was overall more impactful.

As a bonus, we compared it to an early CD and we definitely preferred the sound of the record, either of them, to CD. Which is not to say that CD would have not worked in any other scenario. As I said, we preferred. I am not going into which one was supposedly and semi-objectively better.

Both of us had similar objection, though, and it is more about psychology than about objectiveness. We felt that White Hot Stamper crossed from our usual expectation of that particular record into a sharper image that felt unusual. It was better in every sense of that word, we thought, but it did not align with our long memory of how (imperfect) we have learned that record to be. We did listen to it a few more times since then and it started sinking in. Not there yet, but it is getting there so I am considering digitizing it and having that digital copy for a regular use.

As a conclusion, if I were a vinyl fan and I found some dear album at better-records.com, I would give it a shot again. Had there not been pops and clicks advertised, I would have already picked another one there. Of course, my sample has so far been so small that it may be close to irrelevant as a recommendation, but I am saying what I would do. Others have already reported variations in quality of Stampers so one may need to risk and learn.

As far as "is it worth it" goes, in this particular case, I cannot say that the difference was so phenomenal that I would want to replace everything I have with White Hot Stampers. As I said, based on this experience, I would easily add a few more favorite records to the list. Double that if I were a real vinyl junkie. However, I am not a die-hard vinyl fan. Keep in mind, for an average person, prices can add up so one may need to rationalize a bit. That part is impossible to elaborate on.

Another White Hot Stamper detail unrelated to the better-records.com purchase was happily amusing. After the tested record, I put a recent acquisition of The Boomtown Rats Diamond Smiles single on. Now, that must be some Scorching White Hot Stamper. I guess I just got lucky. No crackling, sounded richer than I have ever dreamed it would, beyond perfect. In my friend’s words (he did not know what I was putting on and was not expecting anything): "Wow, now this is something." It cost maybe $5-10 on discogs.com and it came from half the world away. If you have time, will, interest, etc., you could obviously find White Hot Stampers by yourself. For added hundred, two, or three, if not more, Better Records does it for you, it seems. It depends how you like to play your hobby.

After writing all this boring recap, I cannot resist mentioning that comparing records, and even listening to them properly, is a bit of a chore. Server/streamer is way more convenient. I doubt I will put a record on a turntable any time soon again. However, if it makes you feel good, you definitely should.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, but this tested White Hot Stamper appears to be Made in U.S.A.

Again, talking about really good recordings, here’s another one from the Golden Age of MONO:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8cX-nYcF5U&ab_channel=MegaAlexandroid

Pressed on heavy vinyl from the early 50s.

Here's another one. It is available as a twofer reissue from the guys at Fantasy in Berkeley. The sound is spectacular.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__WVlwijls0&ab_channel=MiltJackson-Topic

Frank

Were you able to give the original albums a good cleaning?

"does the Dog get a sonic vote ?"

He is a dog. He gets an ultrasonic vote. By the way, his name is Bruno.

Well, he actually fell asleep in front of the speaker.

It is late so I am lazy to write more than one sentence now, but in short, yes White Hot Stamper does sound overall better than other three and holds its own against an early CD. In fact, if you like vinyl sound, it is much better. If you are not obsessed with vinyl, there are other threads to discuss that.

does the Dog get a sonic vote ?

Well? Well?

In progress. So far, so good.

In this shootout (is that what it is called?), we quickly discarded one Italian and one U.S.A. copy as they were obviously inferior. German near mint appearing and White Hot Stamper are in rotation.

We often lose compass and forget that matters discussed here are not life-or-death. In my view, it should be simple and unimportant fun, not anything more than that.

You are more than right....

But i am passionate being and i lost compass myself sometimes ....Then.... 😁

By the way you are talented storyteller ....

I am happy for the dog also...

My best to you and to all.... i will wait for your listening....

mahgister,

It is all silly, but around here we make an elephant out of the fly. We often lose compass and forget that matters discussed here are not life-or-death. In my view, it should be simple and unimportant fun, not anything more than that. So, with such a playful approach, why not try it out? I understand limitations of this approach, but I am not trying to change the world. At least not with this.

I am in good health for all I know. That test was for the dog, not for me.

It is like a suspense your test thread.... I read with interest.... thanks....😊



I hope you are well and in good health glupson....

"perhaps use Windex and the Coton de Tulear?"

That dog sheds like crazy. That is not to say he is not a bit crazy anyway. He does make his way into the sweet spot all the time, unless I am already there.

Unrelated trivia, I took a Coronavirus test yesterday only to make sure I do not infect the dog. I am dead (ok, still alive) serious. My friend would survive his own disease, but would not survive if the dog got sick.

mapman,

Short of Shaklee fluid, I could mimic that. In fact, for those records that clearly do sound dirty I do very similar procedure with some record cleaning fluid I bought some time ago from one of the vinyl-oriented websites (LPgear or something like that). I will try to do that before playing.

Poor man’s very effective manual record cleaning process:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/record-playing-rituals/post?highlight=Shaklee&postid=3046...

Any good quality record cleaning solution will do but must use distilled water and something along the line of a old fashioned dishwasher brush. 

mapman,

You are correct on all counts.

Still, to my defense, even if I cleaned old records to the best of my abilty with the best of the equipment I could buy tomorrow morning, there would still be a variable of "their cleaning process, solution, something else, is better than mine so that is where the difference hides". It becomes so many variables that it becomes practically unmanageable.

In reality, I am hoping to figure out if there is a major difference, one that hits you as soon as you start playing it, rather than some nuance. Some records on better-records.com are even described as having pops and clicks. I assume that overall sound must still be strikingly better when they cost in hundreds of dollars.

Well, as it is purely an entertainment, I am welcoming suggestions and revealing limitations. In the end, it is just innocent fun and nobody gets hurt. My results will be limited by laughably small sample, but it may be better than nothing.

perhaps use Windex and the Coton de Tulear?

It’s not going to be a fair comparison between a newly cleaned record in good shape and older ones that have never been cleaned? Maybe a record cleaning machine is a good investment before spending hundreds on another copy of the same record?  

Or it can be done manually quite well with just a few tools and the right process.

Or some may prefer to just replace rather than clean.   Whatever works best. 

"Don't forget to thoroughly clean the copies you already have, to put them on a level playing field."

Houston, we have a problem.

Not much in a way of cleaning machines/equipment. Luckily, my two copies are visually good, one looks near mint although not as good as this new one. As millercarbon mentioned, I thought mine looked like new, but this one looks newer.

I will have to pretend that we are comparing real life situations. Decently-maintained random copies with White Hot Stamper. Scenario that would be applicable to most. I will pretend that none of you have fancy cleaning equipment.

There was/is a business card (at least it looks and feels like that) and it says A+++, A+++. Does that qualify as a tagger?

Grooves look impressive. I can see the depth of the lows and edginess of the highs. However, that is only with a magnifying glass. Without it, they look like black ice.

For real, the record does look clean and neat. I am almost hesitant to play it not to spoil the magic of its looks.

Don't forget to thoroughly clean the copies you already have, to put them on a level playing field.

How do the grooves look compared to your other copies?