I tested the waters of Better Records and bought one of the lower priced offerings and was not really blown away but it does sound quite good.
A fair assessment. The least expensive Hot Stampers (A+) are quite good. Probably better than most records you ever heard but I could easily imagine having ones in the collection that are every bit as good. Super Hot (A++) are quite a bit better than that. The ones I have are all head and shoulders above what I had before. The ones that really shine though are White Hot (A+++) these cost a small fortune and sometimes depending on the original source recording frankly may not be worth it. What something is worth depends entirely on your love for the music and the sound quality. What I mean is no matter how good the pressing you can only get to where the master tape was, and that will be that, and they are not all created equal. Where it really gets mind blowing is when it all comes together. Like Tom Petty Souther Accents, one I really liked the music but never really thought the recording quality was that great. Until I get a White Hot and oh my God this is one of the best records, EVER!!! Had no idea. None whatsoever. Shelley Youkas or whatever his name was, the recording engineer, man he got it dynamic, punchy, extended, and beyond spread out wide and deep this is a total tour de force demo disk! Or Nilsson Schmilsson, Coconut, holy crap! I defy anyone to bring me their copy of either of these and put them up against my White Hot Stampers and not be confessing, apologizing, and back-pedaling big time. We got so much snow here in Redmond UPS is not delivering and so I have to make do with writing about it. Arrgh! |
"Digitizing vinyl? Ugh...it defeats the whole purpose of buying vinyl." Many (most) people are not buying vinyl anymore. They are digitizing collections that they already have, often only records that are not commercially available in digital format. They want them digitized for all of the conveniences that mapman has mentioned. It is nice to have your whole collection of music on one little SD card in the car. If you listen to the music in the car, that is. Take it all with you on the plane, while jogging, leave a copy at work. And sound difference is much less than one would be led to believe. |
|
oregonpapa- I’ve heard plenty of Better Records’ "White Hot Stampers." As MC says, they are simply amazing. When played back on a highly resolving system, there is nothing like them. These recordings go back a long way, back into the early 1940s mono era, to the great modern stereo recordings that we are all familiar with. Once you hear them, especially on a highly resolving system, you will be on the hunt for them yourself.
Frank That’s what happened with Mike when he came up from Portland the first time. Played his favorite tracks from Fleetwood Mac Rumours first on the 45 and then my White Hot Stamper. He was seriously impressed with the 45. "That’s gonna be hard to beat," he said. Before this I had been telling him how the Better-records.com experience has changed my point of view. I used to think the smart thing to do was put all the emphasis on making the system sound great, because then everything sounds better. Which is true. But listen to a few White Hot Stampers, it is a game changer. Now the question becomes, Why put all this time and effort into a great system only to play mediocre recordings? Why indeed. Now I feel like, why would I want to waste my time on crap when I can be listening to treasure? Of course it is one thing to talk, quite another to actually experience. After hearing his same two tracks on my White Hot Stamper he said, "Well, you were right. Definitely worth the money." It’s not just a better record. It’s a better system. More to the point, it’s a better musical experience. The one I got from your friend, Steve Miller Book of Dreams, it was supposed to be Hot Stamper quality level. I’m not complaining, it is a little better than my other random Steve Miller pressing. Once I cleaned it up real good. Put it in a proper sleeve. Then with a better cover it would be pretty close to Hot Stamper level. Like I said, not complaining. I didn’t pay Hot Stamper price either. Just giving a fair Assessment. Because until you hear one it is pretty much impossible to explain. Here we have a guy who lives for this kind of thing, has even sold some to Tom, so for sure he knows quality. Yet still there is a big gap between what he thinks is a Hot Stamper and what you actually get with the real deal. Besides off the charts sound quality they are also impeccably clean, in a new high end sleeve, with a cover that is at least mint (one of them was still in the original shrink wrap!) and the whole thing in a heavy vinyl sleeve, along with their business card with the A+++ ratings on it. For each side. That is another thing that blew my mind. I never dreamed the album covers would be so minty perfect! But of course as you said, a highly resolving system helps. As we both know, thanks to Krissy neither of us has any problem there! 😉😍 |
@millercarbon;
Not all preowned copies are 'used'. Just recently I sold a Kinks LP that I purchased used because when I removed the disc from the sleeve it was still sealed in a clear perforated plastic inner sleeve (thought it may have been a contracted Columbia pressing). The plastic inner sleeve (bad idea BTW) full size @ top perforation with a rounded bottom. Many of the items in my collection have only been played once (so many records, so little time). Clean all new vinyl regardless if it looks clean or not. The disc release debris is present. However at times I do play them right out of the jacket to drag the grooves (if you call 1.4g dragging) and then clean stylus and disc. In summary, there are thousands of gradients for a 'used' record, they must be played! |
@millercarbon & audioguy85;
Couldn't agree more. Why bother acquiring a AAA recording only to convert it to AAD (please see 'loaf of bread' analogy)?? Sure, streaming is convenient but not for "listening to music". For background noise at a party or driving or jogging yes.
@mapman;
No, playing an LP only once for digital copying does not make you a bad audophile. You're preserving them for a future someone to get a NEAR MINT copy. 'Digital conversion' would come under bad audiophile description if that what you're using for "listening purposes". |
A lot of my early audiophile years were spent needlessly worrying about my oh so fragile vinyl. So all my records were dubbed to open reel tape. At 7.5ips my Pioneer RT-1011L was very good, but if you sat and listened in a quiet room it was still pretty impressive how much better the record sounded. Tape is good. Records? Spellbinding. Dubbing was nice. It allowed me to listen to more music with fewer interruptions, and kept my valuable records safe from harm at wild parties, of which there were quite a few back then. One guy shattered my turntable dust cover when he nearly passed out after a big bong hit. So it’s not like there’s no value in dubbing to tape. But, digital? To quote Brando https://youtu.be/VKcAYMb5uk4?t=8 Seriously though, all these people worrying about record wear, this is like not driving a new GT3 for fear of rock chips. Reality check: it was made to drive. Records are made to play. So play them. Over and over again. |
MC ...
You would love my promo copy of Brubeck’s "Jazz Impressions of The USA," and my "Best of America" LP. The Brubeck album, recorded in the early 50s, never came out in stereo. Paul Desmond’s alto sax just hangs in the air between the speakers in all of the glory that can only come from the soul of Paul Desmond. On the America album, the harmony on "Sandman" is uncanny. Both albums would be considered to be Hot Stampers by my estimation.
And speaking of Fleetwood Mac’s "Rumours," I may have sent you a "special" CD of it. If so, get out your old Oppo and compare it with your White Hot Stamper. You may be pleasantly surprised. :-)
Frank |
Hey glunson!
Thanks for the Muppet Show link.
What a wonderful laugh!
Did you know that the Lime in the Coconut song was Nilsson’s tribute to his cocaine addition? The lime and coconut referenced the method for refining coke!
Now Better Records...
Chuck, I listened to your raves about BRs. I tried 3 White Hot Stampers. Sent them all back. Yes, they were a step up in quality BUT, just like justifying a bit of powder and a bit of a cool high for $100, $200+ for 40 minutes of cool sound, to me, is not worth it.
I got an old Elvis and a Carly Simon and the voice was neat but the accompaniment was the same as regular. And, as I upgrade my front end I enjoy almost all of my previously “bad recordings”. Now it is rare that I find a bad one. Sure, it has taken $60k in TT, arm, cartridge and preamp. But that money is invested in stuff that lasts for years not minutes.
HOWEVER, now that I hear so many fellow ‘philes raving, I am moved to try BRs again. Try another line of audio coke. |
Yeah, like I said, no pressing can be any better than the master tape. Elvis and Carly Simon are probably like the Beatles and Elton John, they can sound pretty darn good but never really amazing because the recordings themselves were never really amazing. That is why I have avoided buying Springsteen and the Stones, it is just too well known that their recording values suck. Although to be honest I have almost bought Darkness on the Edge of Town, it was mastered at The Mastering Lab in LA and while I am not certain it was by the famous Doug Sax just the electronics alone at that place count for a lot. This raises another reason why I am so keen on Tom Port and Better-Records.com I had already started noticing many years ago that certain recording and mastering engineers had superior sound. Even as far back as Styx Equinox, which was one of the first where I really liked the sound way back in the 70's. Years later when I started making the connection, looking at the album sure enough there is Mastering Lab in the credits. Tom Port has noticed this same thing and has a bunch of mentions of this peppered all over his site. Most of us know Alan Parsons but it wasn't until Tom that I was aware he had mastered Year of the Cat. Tom discovers new stuff too, as mentioned before Shelley Youkas work on Southern Accents. This kind of knowledge deepens appreciation and also the connections help improve your odds of finding a really good recording. I am not into Elvis enough to know for sure, but most all these artists be they Elvis, Sinatra, Torme or whoever, they all made many different records and not all with the same engineer. Unfortunately while his site has a wealth of information the articles are pretty well scattered around, with a lot of the comments "buried" in particular record reviews. What worked for me, spent a lot of time browsing, reading comments, reading suggested articles, just kind of wandering around. It's not the best site to go for an impulse purchase. But it is a great site to use the other way- study, take your time, think about every aspect of what you are buying. With Rumours for example, I knew that was one I had since it came out, timeless tunes, awesome quality, already spent $$ on three copies, always worth the improvement. So I knew the quality was there on the master and that made it easy. Nobody knows quite what qualities you are looking for but you. The trick is to take what you know, study what Tom has on the site, and only buy when all the stars align. It is not, repeat not, for everyone. Even when it is, not every record is. Kind of like the Porsche 911, even though it is the best car in the history of cars, not for everyone. And even when it is, then they still have to agonize - C4S? GT3? Turbo S? Horses for courses.
And speaking of Fleetwood Mac’s "Rumours," I may have sent you a
"special" CD of it. If so, get out your old Oppo and compare it with
your White Hot Stamper. You may be pleasantly surprised. :-) Yes you did Frank, and I tried it, and it was an interesting experience. Because on the one hand I could tell the source was indeed something special. But while special, it was still the Oppo. How to explain? Let's see. Imagine you sent me Jennifer Warnes. No not some really good recording. Jennifer Warnes, herself. Wow, how great is that!?! So we go into my listening room and I sit down and just as she is about to sing from out of her pocket comes a garden hose. WTF? Oh, didn't he say? I can only sing through this garden hose. Unless you have a blanket or pillow? Then I can go in the other room and sing with that over my face. But no actual in-person singing. Of course I would keep her around for the company- and thanks a lot for that! But I would listen to the record. |
Wow mc, think of all the great music you don’t have or listen to because you perceive the sonics to be less than 5 star. |
"On side two, a group of marks make 20 moderate to light pops on Track 1" This is probably what "with issues" designation means on "mint minus minus" record. Understanding that these records are hard to find as it is, how many are not bothered by knowing the record will come with pops? The one I referred to is $99.99 and may be forgiven by most. At the same time, $649.99 will buy you... On side two, a light mark makes 10 moderately light intermittent pops, followed by 5 light ticks at the end of Track 1, Have a Cigar.
It has been a long time since whenever it was made so some blemishes are understandable, another copy is not just around the corner so this may be as good as it gets. $40 per pop and tick, though. |
"Of course I would keep her around for the company- and thanks a lot for that! But I would listen to the record." And this would be the record... Warnes, Jennifer - Famous Blue Raincoat - White Hot Stamper (Quiet Vin – Better Records (better-records.com) Credit card out and the post becomes a reality. "You’ll have a living, breathing Jennifer Warnes singing her heart out right between your speakers." Still, Better-records’ description may be slightly misleading... "What the Best Sides of Famous Blue Raincoat Have to Offer Is Not Hard to Hear... - The most Tubey Magic, without which you have almost nothing. CDs give you clean and clear. Only the best vintage vinyl pressings offer the kind of Tubey Magic that was on the tapes even as late as 1986"
Except that for this particular album "Tubey Magic that was on the tapes" was really " Tubey Magic that was on the digital tapes". At least that is what the rumor is. millercarbon, if you do not already have it, try this one, actually these three, they are quite good...
Jennifer Warnes - Famous Blue Raincoat (The Songs Of Leonard Cohen): 3xLP, Ltd, Num, RE, RM For Sale | Discogs
|
You dub at 15 ips to Studer then compare. Records do wear, I use Last record preservative and don’t think much about it. |
Wow mc, think of all the great music you don’t have or listen to because you perceive the sonics to be less than 5 star. Read Robert Harley’s The Complete Guide to High End Audio. There, among many other great things, you will find his description of music. It is an interesting form of communication. With language, the information in the printed words is fully conveyed no matter the shape (font) of the characters, or how clearly they are printed, or in what color, or even how fast you read them. Hec you can eve leav ou a lo of letrs and stil get the message across. With music the meaning depends entirely on all these things. And more. Music lives and breathes in the details. Supple vibrato and tremolo is the mark of a talented musician. Exquisite control of pitch and dynamics, the choice of whether to pick a note sharply or softly, every tiny little nuance, this is music. There really is no way to separate the music from the medium. Live is live, recorded is recorded, and recorded and played back poorly is just not great music. |
Elvis, The Rolling Stones, Elton John and even The Beatles all had some very good recordings. |
MC-
I could not agree more re Bruce. Darkness is the best sounding album--- but most just Godawful--especially "Magic". However, I like him enough to withstand the poor sound quality. His voice almost always overtakes the mix. I find it hard to follow the individual instruments throughout most of his recordings, drums and bass often sound like weak replicas of the real thing and Bittan often sounds like he is playing on a toy piano. It always amazes me how much better the band could sound if the were recorded properly. His vinyl usually sounds better than the cd which is not saying much.
As for the Stones, Let It Bleed is mostly a good recording but most of the 60s recordings are not so good. Some late 70s early 80s recordings are actually very good. Again, have to listen anyway. |
Love Springsteen songs. One of the very best live acts ever. Well in his prime anyway. Still great for background, in the car, etc. Ghost of Tom Joad on vinyl is pretty good. I will probably go for Darkness some time when Tom has a good one and I've saved up enough for another White Hot.
Which speaking of, a little birdie tells me there are some outstanding quality Rolling Stones albums, and Led Zeppelin. So I stand corrected on that. But not Bruce. Springsteen remains the King of Great Song, Bad Recording. |
MC. We are not talking about poor recordings. Bad is bad. You are suggesting if it isn’t a Tom’s better record, it is bad and you aren’t interested. Silly and self limiting. I’m off now to listen to nm classical imports I picked up at a thrift shop for $.25 each. You continue to type. |
I’ve been collecting records since my high school days. My LP collection probably exceeds 5000 records at this point. They range from early mono pressings of classical, jazz, and early big band singers, to stereo recordings from "The Golden Age."
On the older recordings, so many are not great sounding, but I look at them as a time machine, a history lesson, and a vehicle to revisit my long-ago youth. I still get out my crappy-sounding Earl Bostic and Joe Houston records to remind me of how I got so heavily into jazz. And then the abysmal Charlie Parker recordings to remind me of where it led.
Personally, I think if one only has pristine-sounding audiophile recordings in their collections, they are missing a lot of what the hobby offers. There were great performers and performances from yesteryear that can and should be enjoyed today. Just think about all of the great blues players from the past. The recordings weren’t that great ... but the music and the soul certainly were. Big Bill Broonzy, anyone??
Frank |
There was a story some years ago in Stereophile, anecdote really, guy who made turntables was doing a demo at a show. Some people bring their own records to play. One time a nice old man asked to please play his special record. One of these very old ones from back before RIAA was standardized, different records required different EQ. Which this guy knew, and had brought his to their room because they had the flexibility to pay it right.
So he sets it up and puts it on and it is some strange whatever he never heard, certainly not the greatest demo disk that's for sure. The old gent is sitting dead center rapt with emotion tears streaming down his face.
So, yeah. What it's all about. |
Hey Chuck,
What are your recommendations for WHSs?
How many do you have?
Are all those WH pressings also great masters?
Thanks
|
|
Hey Chuck,
What are your recommendations for WHSs? Already said- if you can find one you really love, and will enjoy hearing it sound like never before, enough to be worth it to you. In other words exact same as anything else. How many do you have? Don't know. Not like I keep a list or anything. Going from memory: Rumours, So, GBYBR, DSMIOTPP, Honky Chateau, Nilsson Schmilsson, Little Touch of Schmillson, Southern Accents, Damn the Torpedoes, Mel Torme Swings Schubert Alley, several Tchaikovsky, couple Mozart, Beatles Help, Neil Diamond Taproot Manuscript, maybe a couple more. Are all those WH pressings also great masters? Like I said, they are great pressings. Already said some like the Beatles are what they are. The recording chain from artist to listener is a long and winding road. Let me know if you need more help navigating. Thanks You're welcome. |
"Don't know. Not like I keep a list or anything. Going from memory..." That is about twenty. At a going rate of $350 a record (not adjusting for double albums) it is around $7000. Which is respectable sum for a few fews of records. In fact, it is almost as much as stock Tekton Moabs and Raven Blackhawk together. So, surprise, millercarbon is an audiophile music lover after all. He does put more into records than into his equipment. Hats off. |
Back to sound quality of Better Records records.
Could it be that superiority of Better Records compared to what one already owns is due to the comparison difficulties?
From what I understand, Better Records records are virtually new. Barely played, if at all. How many will compare such a record at home with an unplayed record from a different retailer source? Could it be that Better Records records really do sound significantly better than what one is used to at home due to, in part at least, that record at home being old and physically damaged to some extent over the years?
|
@glupson is a bit of a digital DB. |
skypunk,
I am actually familiar with DB. |
Many (most) people are not buying vinyl anymore. They are digitizing collections .
@gulpson you could not be more wrong. In 2020 vinyl out sold carbon discs. CD plants are being closed..... |
|
|
skypunk. "Many (most) people are not buying vinyl anymore. They are digitizing collections .
@gulpson you could not be more wrong. In 2020 vinyl out sold carbon discs. CD plants are being closed....." I am just guessing, but that guess would be that vinyl records are a subtype of carbon discs. Check with people on the street, ask how many are buying records. Even in "audophile" world records are probably not as strong as streaming and other digital formats. |
|
Check with people on the street, ask how many are buying records. Even in "audophile" world records are probably not as strong as streaming and other digital formats.
LOL very scientific your marketing analytics are...not.
Sales rule and digital is not “audiophile”
|
Currently at work, but just got notification UPS has finally delivered! About a week late. We did have a lot of snow here, but come on, man! Another one, Sinatra-Basie, is also on the way.
Listening last night to Taproot Manuscript, A++, what an experience! This is another one I have had a copy of for a very long time. But not a copy like this! Can't wait to get the system nice and warm and hear my White Hot Year of the Cat! Was just playing my old copy last night, so still fresh in my memory. Let's see how Tom does this time!
|
skypunk, "Carbon discs are CD,s you know in that horrible digital domain." Not to go into bigger discussion, but you may want to brush up on chemistry as it applies to the manufacturing process of carbon discs (records). Pay special attention to molecular structure of polyvinyl chloride. Only the facts Mam.
|
skypunk,
Check with people on the street, ask how many are buying records. Even in "audophile" world records are probably not as strong as streaming and other digital formats.
LOL very scientific your marketing analytics are...not.
I did check your (sort of) reliable marketing analytics reference and I do have to agree with it. Try with the second paragraph. "Most of us are streaming our music instead of buying it outright."
Record Roundup Volume 6: Vinyl Outsells CDs For The First Time Since The 1980s (forbes.com)
|
|
"Another one, Sinatra-Basie, is also on the way."
Great album. The 2nd collaboration is another to look out for-"It might as well be swing" Lots of good ol male chauvinist references in that period of popular music.
I have both the stereo/mono press of these albums. The mono press is the one to own. Excellent "Sinatra is in the room" sonics, even without a proper mono cart.
Looked at the Sinatra offerings......Yikes! Goodwill White Hots @$300!
I will lay out that kind of dough for a real deal R&R stamper, but not my parents music! |
skypunk,
Thanks for the links, I am glad I inspired you to learn something. Now dig deeper into chemistry and the secret behind "carbon discs" will reveal itself to you. |
According to the RIAA, LP sales made up about 4% of music revenues for the first half of 2020. The remaining 96% is digital including CDs, SACDs, downloads and streaming. Mostly streaming. It is true that LP sold more in dollar amount in the first half of 2020 than CD, but in units sold CD still outsold LP 10.2 million units to 8.8 million units. LP unit sales will probably surpass CD soon though. Mid-Year-2020-RIAA-Revenue-Statistics.pdf They haven’t released full year 2020 figures probably due to some aspect of the Covid disaster. |
First impression, gotta say, the cover is mint. Like time machine mint. That thin shrink wrap plastic records used to come in? Really meticulous types would carefully cut along the opening with a razor blade so as to preserve that plastic? Even though, unless you were very careful, it would get torn just in the normal back and forth of playing? Well whoever had this was so careful it is still perfectly cut just along the opening.
Not the only one like this either. Rumours was like this, except that one the plastic had been torn just a little. Not all are like this. Most are just really impressively crisp and mint. This kind of gets pushed to the side in all the talk about sound quality. They also come complete with the original inner sleeve.
Tom packages these in a way that really helps preserve this crisp mint condition. The cover, record, and inner sleeve all come packaged in a large clear plastic sleeve. Your impeccably cleaned record is of course in a new high grade audiophile sleeve. This packaging makes it easy to remove and replace the record without touching the album cover. Sweet!
Back to sound quality. I'm writing this while eating dinner, warming up, and demagnetizing the system. The XLO demagnetizing tracks are on a CD burned just for this, the tracks repeating half a dozen times. Pretty much all CD is good for anyway, but it is good for that, might as well admit it, and use it.
Give it another 15 min and we will be ready for some warm-up sides. Wouldn't dream of putting a White Hot on a system that isn't ready for it. Couple three sides oughta do it. Then Zero-stat, run the Radio Shack Bulk Tape Eraser over all the cables, and the record, spray Static Guard, turn the damn CDP off, dim the lights, and get ready for the needle drop.
Someone was asking, when it comes to buying these things, what I recommend. Well here it is, short and not so sweet: If you think this kind of prep is over the top, or worse if you think it's nuts, or worst of all if you tried and can't hear any difference, then my recommendation is stick with your record store records. But if you are already doing these, or if you try a couple and appreciate the improvement, then my recommendation is, these are the records you are looking for. Go for it.
|
I just had a religious experience.
And putting it away I noticed it still has the original sticker: Sam Goody $2.99. |
- "I will lay out that kind of dough for a real deal R&R stamper, but not my parents' music!"
Hey! I represent that ...!!! :-) |
|
Success! Advertisement worked and I just ordered one White Hot Stamper, apparently without issues. I wonder how it will compare to a memory of the same record. |
Goodwill can be a goldmine for old very high quality recordings from the real golden age of vinyl in the late 50 and early 60 that nobody wants anymore except audiophiles because they were very high quality recordings.
hifi and stereo was a new thing back then. People cared about the promise of better sound back then in the beginning so the recording industry did too.
PS the Goodwill gold mine for "white hot stamper" recordings is OUR little secret......don't tell anyone!!!
|
I go to Goodwill and buy real Cool Black Stampers there. It is mostly classical music that I find perfectly preserved. Some are in unopened shrinkwrap. |
+1 for Mapman.
Here are some tips for the budding record bin divers ...
Philips Golden Imports = These are reissued Mercury Living Presence recordings, Great sounding reissues with better vinyl than the originals. Cheap too.
Westminister Stereo = Don't pass them up.
RCA Living Stereo = Gorgeous strings.
Mercury Living Presence = Dynamics.
London Stereo = Brass.
Contemporary = Some of the most well-recorded jazz records on the planet.
Savoy = Some of the mono recordings are to die for. Try the reissues put out by Fantasy in Berkeley ... especially the twofer of Milt Jackson (vibes).
There's plenty more. Perhaps others would like to chime in on this subject.
Frank |
Yup those + pretty much anything orchestral based made by any major label at the time.
Don’t say you never learned anything valuable on A’gon.....
I have a few CD quality flac files I’ve made of tracks off many now quite obscure recordings of that time if anyone interested. |
