Went Big into Vinyl last 2 years, then re-discovered my many CD’s, mixing it up plenty now.
I continue to try and find a CD Player with better sound than my existing cheapo Sony Changer that surprisingly keeps on keeping on.
I am hoping recent upgrades to the system will more readily reveal differences:
99.9999 copper speaker wires and interconnects, locking rca connectors, mx110z tube tuner/preamp overhaul by Audio Classics; cayin a88t bias by VAS; 16 ohm L-Pads replacing 8 ohm pots; and finally a I bought a sound meter to balance/refine the speaker’s L-Pads (it ain’t easy) for the best sound ever. .....................................
CD Quest So Far:
I want dual processors, go used to keep cost down, even consider older vintage.
1. my Onkyo Grand Integra (DX-7500 I think), fixed the damn drawer opening problem several times.
2. This cheapo Sony Changer given to me, eh, use if for parties, why not. surprisingly sounded as good as the Onkyo to me and friends, gave the annoying Onkyo away.
3. tried used Oppo 83 Video Player for it’s audio
Laser was weak, ’no disc’, found it is a common problem with heavily used lasers. Back it went
4. lightly used Oppo 105. Everything worked, but didn’t sound better than the Sony. Oppo is big, single, expensive, not sellers fault, so I sold it myself rather than return it, lost $205. on that attempt.
5. ’new original stock’ KLH (made by?). played a few discs, then the discs started mis-tracking on discs I know are ok.
found small black bits clinging to the surface in the area of the problems (cds play from the inside out, just guess how far out). Turned out, the belt(s) were dried out, thus when put into motion after years of storage (where?), they shed bits of rubber. Back it went, full refund including return shipping. never compared it to the Sony’s sound
6. Resolved: if vintage, make sure belts are available, get a low price, open it up when it arrives, watch it move ... use, replace belts, return as last choice.
7. Just Bought Two, in transit, One Single; One 6 Disc Changer. (both with oem remotes and power cords, most for sale are missing).
@in_shore , I received my Pro-Ject CD BOX RS2 transport today. I'll get right to the point, how could you return this unit for sake of mere convenience? It's simply stunning! Utterly musical, completely emotionally engaging music reproduction and simultaneously 'highly ' resolved and nuanced.
It was comments from you, @wig, @bigkidz and others that caught my attention. As good (Very good) as my trusted P.S. Audio PWT sounds, the RS2 is a class above. Simply thoroughly organic, dynamic and absolutely involving. The crew at Stream Unlimited who developed this new CD Pro-8 CD drive are truly experts. Redbook CD is fantastic with high quality transport and DAC.
With the latest CD drive mechanism I expected heighten resolution/detail. The fluidity, superb harmonics and tonality, musical flow and organic character are the big surprise. One last observation, the presentation is exceptionally three-dimensional and very open. In_shore how could you?😊 Charles
@tvad, My DAC is the Yamamoto YDA -01a , High Fidelity CT-1 Ultimate digital cable (RCA) coaxial input. I added Duelund CAST Copper foil output coupling capacitors about 7 years ago(Thanks for that recommendation back then Bill (@grannyring). I still appreciate that to this day👍.
@grannyring, A keeper for certain . Straight out of the shipping box (BTW very well double boxed with dense high quality foam inserts) into the audio system. You could hear it steadily improve within the first 30-45 minutes. Bill, you would love and really appreciate the Pro-Ject.
Supremely organic with such ease and liquidity. The tonality of acoustic instruments is on the bullseye. Charles
@grannyring, I bought mine (Silver color) from Underwood Hifi/Walter. It was a very smooth and professional experience with him. He has 3 units left(Black only). Then no more he said until February 2022. Charles
Integra CDC-3.4 6 disc changer arrived, like new, perfect, and, despite my ’doubtful’ expectation bias:
FINALLY one that sounds preferable to my Sony. I highly recommend the sound of this with it’s dual Wolfson processors and all of Onkyo/Integra’s tricks applied.
How to describe the difference: Like my AT33PTG/II cartridge, compared to any cartridge with less tight channel balance, EVERYTHING is a speck more distinct. Not bright, not sharp, a very thin veil removed allowing refined clarity. Imaging is the same width, but within that, main vocal, backup singers, specific musicians, simultaneously more precise.
A small improvement to EVERYTHING, is a LOT!!! .................................................
I’ve been refining my speaker’s L-Pads with a tripod/sound meter the last 2 weeks, listening to and actively aware of dozens of favorite and revealing CD’s. Getting the L to match the R, and juicing the mid horn and tweeter horn up/dn for +/- db working together is not easy but a great tool to adjust for their current listening position. Refined my toe-in also with the meter.
The improvements clearly heard via the existing Sony right up to comparison yesterday. Copies of CD’s, pre-adjust volume match, remote switching of inputs made comparison nearly instant.
....................................
Kate Wolf, Give Yourself to Love, volume 2, track 8: Pacheco/Redtail Hawk. They get going, then 3 strings l/c/r. (something like mandolin/guitar/fiddle). The more distinct center is the first thing you notice right away, then the more distinct imaging (same location) of l & r instruments.
Casandra Wilson, Blue Light Till Dawn, her version of Tupelo Honey, any track, she has wonderful musicians.
Eurythmics; Blue Nile; Friday Night in San Francisco 3 guitarists; Melody Gardot; Sade; Eva Cassidy; Nora Jones, Amos Lee; Lyle Lovett; Buddy Guy; Oscar Peterson, Rising Appalachia’ Larkin Poe; Melissa Etheridge, Abby Lincoln .....
Next: compare something unfamiliar. Tierney Sutton. I have and love a couple of her CD’s, just bought this one: The Sting Variations.
Ever notice, some bands, like Bad Company are masters of reducing the musician’s volume when Paul Rodgers is singing, right back up, down again, one of the reasons his amazing voice and their songs are so well understood.
Tierney: her musicians do not lower their volume when she sings. Clarity of her voice within the music is a speck easier to understand than with the Sony.
I could go on. .........................................
Soooo: at this point, with all the improvements and refinements: would I have heard difference/preference from the Oppo 105? Possibly. .......................................
Features/Light on the Tray when Loading/smaller remote, quieter mechanism ..........................................
Next: compare the sets of matching LPs to CD’s, I bet the difference narrows.
The search is over! Came up with this one just the other night! Remove CD from jewel case. Holding the CD in both hands, firmly press both thumbs into the center hole. Now this is the most important part- QUICKLY press and pull sharp as you can until the CD breaks. The sound you hear right at the moment it snaps in two is the best sound you will ever get from CD. So real, so lifelike, you won't believe.
I cannot find the magic adjustment of the 2 allen screws that raise/lower/align the laser to get it to read SACD discs. I'm going to write the seller this am with questions.
Both my Sony's, because they are DVD/Blu-Ray players, also play SACD. But the Integra sounds better, so what's the point?
I never went big into SACD. I tried some purposely, didn't like having to concentrate to hear the difference, and found, when concentrating, some like Oscar Peterson piano have an un-naturally dead-quiet background. So out of nearly 5k CDs, less than a dozen specifically purchased as SACD, others simply came as hybrids.
But still, to lose to a machine? I hate that. If I get it working, SACDs are the best!!!!
I had the seller refund me the cost of the new laser, so it was: Fix it or Toss it.
just found this on diyaudio.com, from moderator
anatech
"To all,
If you can’t afford to fix something, sell it so someone else can get it repaired properly. There is not point in wrecking something so no one can have it. It’s a real shame seeing nice equipment destroyed by the owner, or a friend "who knows something about electronics". TV and Computer shops are fairly notorious for destroying audio equipment too. Then there is my favorite. "I don’t want to spend much because I have already spent $xxx.xx on it so far"! Then sell it! Exactly what does the next poor tech have to do with the history of your machine ... and he has to clean up after someone else who erased all the clues and created new faults in the process. I’m working on a Pioneer SX-1280 like that now. Repaired the negative HV regulator, repaired the traces in the FM section and removed an incorrect chip. Replaced a bunch of missing parts and now need to replace a PA1001-A / KB4437 (missing) MPX decoder and find a PA1002-A / KB4438. The PA1002-A is the actual fault, plus it needs an alignment. The rest was "struck by technician" faults.
-Chris"
I never thought about this point of view, at this point I suppose my trust that I could blindly fix it could be seen as arrogant by someone who knows what they are doing.
Past successes encourage me, you don’t learn if you don’t try, and so many ’for parts’ units are out there.
In September 2007, the Audio Engineering Society published the results of a year-long trial, in which a range of subjects including professional recording engineers were asked to discern the difference between high-resolution audio sources (including SACD and DVD-Audio) and a compact disc audio (44.1 kHz/16 bit) conversion of the same source material under double-blind test conditions. Out of 554 trials, there were 276 correct answers, a 49.8% success rate corresponding almost exactly to the 50% that would have been expected by chance guessing alone.[38] When the level of the signal was elevated by 14 dB or more, the test subjects were able to detect the higher noise floor of the CD-quality loop easily."
****** Integra CDC-3.4, Mark 2 ******** It’s BY FAR the WINNER!
Last night I realized: It’s like I was given more than 4K new CDs free with the unit. The distinctness I described above just adds up in so many ways. It’s taken me a few years to get here, I am so glad I didn’t give up.
I prowled the small clubs in NJ and NYC twice a week for live music for over 20 years. Yesterday I listened to many musicians/singers I have seen live and also many local musicians I know well. I couldn’t be happier.
A great example, final one last night, is Willie Nelson, Teatro Album. One of my favorites, surprisingly better. New respect for Daniel Lanois and all the performers.
Like the Integra it is more distinct than the Sony, however it’s salad of dual burr brown dacs and Denon’s mix of additives: over sampling, clock, jitter, .... produces a slight brightness compared to the Integra.
i.e. Emmylou Harris’s voice, Jose Feliciano strings, Melissa Etheridge, Tierney Sutton .... high frequency piano and violin notes, like many good individual things adding up, here that very slight aspect adds up.
Others may love it.
I have wide dispersion horn tweeters, just balanced via sound meter and new L-Pads, so, combined with the Denon’s excellent distinctness, these speakers reveal this slight brightness more than some speakers/systems/rooms might. It may sound terrific thru another system/speakers/space, the Integra could be a bit dull compared to the Denon in that situation.
................................................
I am done, and will keep my eye out for another Integra. MARK 2.
I never heard mark 1, so I can only say great things about my Mark 2. How to know: It uses remote control rc-778c, ’squarer’ outside corners, and has a suffix letter M after the serial #. Newer date made is shown on serial number tag is also a hint.
Original (unidentified as Mark 1) use remote rc-553c, same key layout, but rounded outside corners
customer service should be able to tell you from the serial #
@in_shore, so you kept your streamer? The Pro-Ject is over $3000 without the upgraded power supply. I would like to buy one, but that is outside my budget by $1000. Love to try one. I understand Underwood does not allow returns or trial? That is what his site says?
I purchased my Pro-Ject from Underwood Hifi and no returns unless a faulty/malfunctioning unit. I took my chances due to
1 universally positive comments from a multitude of credible and trusted Audiogon members.
2 Very competitive pricing and Underwood has a very good long term record as an audio retailer. So glad I purchased the Pro-Ject RS2 Transport. It’s truly marvelous sounding .@in_shore description is on the money! Bill I know that you understand the significant impact the CD transport has on sound quality.
I received my Pro-Ject CD BOX RS2 transport today @charles1dad
Hey charles1dad, have you possibly reinserted your old PWT into your system to "reconfirm" how much better thd new Pro-ject sounds?
I am interested in any new comparison details that you might have noticed.
I was very impressed when I inserted a PWT in my system and would hate to try the Pro-ject and end up deciding I hear a sideways move versus an improvement.
I want to be very clear. I used the PWT in my audio system for 9 years and enjoyed every moment of it. In my humble opinion it is an excellent CD transport. I could keep it another 9 years and continue to be happy with it. The Pro-Ject CD transport does not blow away the PWT nor does it make it sound broken. I just want to clear the air on that. The PWT has been a very highly regarded transport for a long time and justifiably so.
The Pro-Ject CD BOX RS2 is better sounding than the PWT is this regard. It is a higher resolution component. Clarity, transparency and openness are improved. There is more air and a capturing of venue ambience. Both macro and micro dynamics are an improvement. The sense/awareness of musical pace and flow are improved. It can really get your toes to tapping and your head nodding in beat to the music.
The Pro-Ject is more fluid with an ease and effortless vibe. Very similar to what a really high-quality analog base system can do (And not every analog front end system achieves this coveted characteristic). The PWT did this well and is natural and engages you emotionally. The Pro-Ject takes this to yet a higher level. It is thoroughly organic and superb with tone and timbre of instruments and vocals.
The PWT is in absolute terms "very " good. The Pro-Ject is superb. That’s the essential distinction for me. Each one of us is different and we have to make our own specific/individual assessment. I would be surprised if you found the move to the Pro-Ject merely sidewards.
@charles1dadThe improvements you're hearing with Pro-Ject vs PWT are exactly what I heard with my Mark Levinson No37 vs PWT. I could never get past lower resolution and transparency of PWT. The PWT lack of performance, even after my mods, motivated my conversion to streaming. I was looking at replacment transports at much higher price point than PWT. Couldn't justify the purchase as I presume cd's will be obsolete in coming years. Ripped all my cd's to NAS, not missing cd players or transports.
Having said that, the Pro-Ject sounds like a winner.
I do understand the convenience of ripping CDs and streaming. A friend of mine has ripped his CDs to file storage and loves controlling recordings via his IPad. Conversely I have my CDs arranged alphabetically in racks within my listening room. I have no issues with getting up and selecting CDs as desired. No doubt either choice can be gratifying.
It seems I think a bit more highly of the PWT than you 😊. I preferred it to an earlier generation Esoteric VDRS transport I had used previously. But yes the Pro-Ject is special.
Wow, pretty early model purchased new circa late 1990s-2000. Used it with the Timbre Technology TT-1DAC. It was good and rock solid reliable. I found it analytical relative to the PWT which had more fluidity naturaalness in presentation. Certainly subsequent generation Esoteric transports could have gotten better.
I do not doubt your impressions. You have a much later and further up the model line unit compared to mine (Thus my caveat in my prior post). My unit was so early generation it was referred to as TEAC-Esoteric. So I don't believe that it's an apple to aplle comparison.
Hamlet, sitting beside his mother, asks her what she thinks about it and she replies: ‘The lady doth protest too much, methinks,’
You made a solid case for HiFi, which could be restated as: ONLY high cost gets you high quality. Of course I do occasionally wonder: what if this ... combined with .... that?
I could spend more, however, I definitely do not equate cost with results. I do equate what I hear to what I have heard.
Using my methods, compared to everything I have heard here and elsewhere, I finally successfully found a wonderful improvement, a new level of involvement for all my CD’s, thru my system, in this space.
No one who has listened here thinks it is MidFi. Ultimate HiFi, no way, but a mighty fine and involving music system and a lot of great content to enjoy. That's my goal!
Come listen, then pronounce what you hear (not what you presume) to be ……?
seller considered the hints that it read both types at first (probable that other stuff is not bad), then erratic, then stopped reading; then replacement read CD only was enough for the seller to simply be nice and offer a replacement.
He seemed to have confidence in my ability to remove the two anti-static blobs of solder successfully and adjust the allen screws/laser alignment enough, so a defective laser is a possibility, that never occured to me.
I only paid $28. for this Denon (big dented top) (plus shipping and tax = $52 total). I never checked with Denon. After 2 days, it stopped finding discs, I got the seller to pay for this laser, refunded $28., so he ended up with nothing, and I ended up with a $52. risk I was willing to take to fix it.
If it does only CD's ok, if SACD also, even better. If SACD, then it probably will play video also.
I'm trying to fix it, but have no use for it. I'm keeping the Integra and will give the Denon to my son or sell it.
I got solid confirmation regarding 'look no further' after listening for 4 hours last night with my friend/neighbor/music producer. If not streaming higher resolution content, just playing CDs, the DAC(s)/Additives of some CD Players do a great job.
he brought music he just mixed, music he won a grammy for, and we played lots of my music, LP's and CD versions via the Integra CDC-3.4.
He likes Peter Gabriel, Steamroller as a quick revealing test. I have favorites I find revealing. 1st round darn good, but ....then we tweaked the tweeters a bit higher with their L-Pads, then he pronounced the system sound, imaging, depth excellent. You can imagine how happy I was to hear that.
I had been over-cautious with the tweeters, I got +/- 1.5db up to10k, then let the highs drop slowly from there. He heard that, I twirled the controls a speck at a time L & R, he listened and thinks we got it just right. He's interested to know what the meter says we did. Of course I will get L/R equal if they are not.
I'm lucky to know him, a great guy, brought some good beer, told me some funny stories ....
Looking at the threads comments, I realize it is hard for most modern people to think 'CD redbook only', thus the strong recommendation for separate DAC. My record producer friend had to burn discs to bring his music, his whole world is streaming, and high rez. He burnt and tossed all his CDs years ago.
correction: he likes Peter Gabriel's 'Sledgehammer', not Steamroller, that is James Taylor.
I listened quite a bit yesterday to music I am quite familiar, and Sledgehammer, after we had boosted the tweeters the night before. I realized, keeping the tweeters down a bit was not just limiting highs, it is a form of compression. It suppresses the volume, thus the proper time of decay of the overtones of the upper mids, as well as fundamental highs.
It is remarkable how easy it was for him to hear it and so fortunate we were able to correct my mistake with the L-Pads. Like anything else, a small improvement gets applied to everything, thus a huge improvement.
My mistake was I confused what the meter was hearing to what I 'would' hear. I simply assumed my ability to hear highs is naturally age reduced at 73. Thus, IF I heard 16k, it must be too high for others. Surprisingly I could hear 16k, but I didn't realize, the meter was hearing it in relation to everything else, like someone with young ears, i.e. not too strong, thus I set the highs 'not strong enough'. I heard 16K, but at what SPL?
Previously my audio consultant friend would bring his pro meter and I would adjust the original L-Pads as he directed. Replacing the L-Pads and buying/using a SPL meter on my own has be a learning and re-learning experience.
@charles1dad My friend/neighbor has a high end system. He has 3,000 CDs and only plays them after ripping them using EAC to a thumbdrive. Then it goes to a Berkeley, then a Meridian UltraDAC, then an Audio Research SP28, then the amp/speaker. He controls everything from an large laptop 17" computer and volume from an ancillary mouse. However, he has many other gadgets in the way. Through his YG Sonja 2.3s, the sound is quite analog-like. It’s just too much work for me.
I just ordered the PS Audio PW Transport in October (they are backed up due to lack of boards) to go with my COS Engineering D1v DAC. Hopefully, that will sound as good as my 1987 CD player (the only one that sounds as good as analog to me until recent expensive CDPs above $10K. I tried the Cambridge CXC-thin, hard, forward and lacking in bass. The Denon 3910 was the best of a dozen DVDs and better than my EAR Acute as a transport but had a bright sound even with warm sounding digital cabling (Harmonic Tech from 10 years ago). I also saw Guttenberg’s comparison of the Jay’s Audio to the Project transport, the latter which he preferred. However, he also noted that the former appeared better conceived and built than the Project. Well, another month from now, hopefully I will know if the PS Audio is "good enough."
If the new P.S.Audio CD/SACD is a sonic improvement of the PWT that's quite an accomplishment. The last generation PWT (I owned over 9 years) is really a good transport. Not sure I understand the Guttenberg Pro-Ject CD BOX RS2T comments.
He's right about the sound quality which in my opinion is simply splendid. It is very straightforward and simple to use. In regard to built quality it is definitely compact but very dense feeling with solid/rigid aluminum construction. Very well done. So curious as to what Guttenberg is specifically referring to. It's an excellent choice for someone interested in very upper tier well executed transport playback sound quality of Redbook CD.
I will be very surprised if you are not thrilled with the new P.S.Audio CD/SACD transport and do not find it an improvement of your trusty older CD player.
@jafant The Kyocera 310. I've owned/heard over 50+ CDPs from the 80's 90's and 2000's (Denon 1500 was okay). I also owned a Cal Audio Tercet III and Muse Signature 9. The were vastly inferior with the Muse sounding awful replaced by a Marantz 63 prior to the EAR.
I haven't had as much bad experience with analog, keeping my 32 year old SME IV (modified) arm, Benz Ruby 3, VPI TNT V1, phono stage, pre-amp (both custom subminiature tube designs by Grover Huffman). With the Kyocera, I get at least an analog sound with ample tight bass, neutral mids, ample ambiance, smooth highs and most important the coherent sound like analog recordings. I have not heard in my system, high end CDPs such as Luxman, MSB, Meitner, Meridian, Esoteric, DCS, etc. They should be better but I'm trying to build a system using a separate DAC and transport. The Kyocera is very long in the tooth and may fail any day now to age (caps, laser, etc).
Thank You for the follow up. I missed Kyocera back in the 80's. Back then I was a Sony ES fan/owner. Audiophiles still talk about the Kyocera brand. Some pieces of Audio gear are relevant in 2021.
The last Sony I had, used as a transport was the 777ESD. While full sounding, it also was very dark, lacked ambiance and detail. Great remote too and full featured! Used as a CDP, yuk! Could be the old caps and the power cord (but the Kyocera uses only A/C lamp cord yet sounds great). I had at least half dozen earlier Sonys 520, 620, etc.
Right On! Never heard the 777ESD, but did enjoy the SCD-1. Could not afford it in the 2000's. I did own the 520ES for 25 years. Those early Japanese spinners were built to last for a long time. I wish I could have experienced the Kyocera back then.
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