Went Big into Vinyl last 2 years, then re-discovered my many CD’s, mixing it up plenty now.
I continue to try and find a CD Player with better sound than my existing cheapo Sony Changer that surprisingly keeps on keeping on.
I am hoping recent upgrades to the system will more readily reveal differences:
99.9999 copper speaker wires and interconnects, locking rca connectors, mx110z tube tuner/preamp overhaul by Audio Classics; cayin a88t bias by VAS; 16 ohm L-Pads replacing 8 ohm pots; and finally a I bought a sound meter to balance/refine the speaker’s L-Pads (it ain’t easy) for the best sound ever. .....................................
CD Quest So Far:
I want dual processors, go used to keep cost down, even consider older vintage.
1. my Onkyo Grand Integra (DX-7500 I think), fixed the damn drawer opening problem several times.
2. This cheapo Sony Changer given to me, eh, use if for parties, why not. surprisingly sounded as good as the Onkyo to me and friends, gave the annoying Onkyo away.
3. tried used Oppo 83 Video Player for it’s audio
Laser was weak, ’no disc’, found it is a common problem with heavily used lasers. Back it went
4. lightly used Oppo 105. Everything worked, but didn’t sound better than the Sony. Oppo is big, single, expensive, not sellers fault, so I sold it myself rather than return it, lost $205. on that attempt.
5. ’new original stock’ KLH (made by?). played a few discs, then the discs started mis-tracking on discs I know are ok.
found small black bits clinging to the surface in the area of the problems (cds play from the inside out, just guess how far out). Turned out, the belt(s) were dried out, thus when put into motion after years of storage (where?), they shed bits of rubber. Back it went, full refund including return shipping. never compared it to the Sony’s sound
6. Resolved: if vintage, make sure belts are available, get a low price, open it up when it arrives, watch it move ... use, replace belts, return as last choice.
7. Just Bought Two, in transit, One Single; One 6 Disc Changer. (both with oem remotes and power cords, most for sale are missing).
Absolutely LOVE this Sony SACD/CD Player SCD-xa5400ES
ALL CDs sound better, first 2 comparisons: equal to LP
SACD without intermediate PCM conversion: Awesome, now I know what some have been hearing.
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If someone you let go regrettably used you as a job reference, and you get a call, you respond "I cannot say enough good things about ..."
I truly cannot say enough good things about this Sony SCD-xa5400es.
Very familiar, very revealing content, ALL CDs, all SACDs: ALL OBVIOUSLY, SURPRISINGLY BETTER. Not Preferred, BETTER!
Andreas Vollenweider’s White Winds; sounds of the Eurythmics Underground Train; Distinction of ’No More Tears’ duet by Barbra Streisand and Donna Summer; Richard Burton and the Martian Death Rays in Jeff Wayne’s War of the Worlds; ah, there’s a second mandolin behind Kate Wolf’s guitar; the distinction of different string types of the 3 guitars on Friday Night in San Francisco; and finally, what SACD people who have been hearing that I never heard properly until now.
FUNDAMENTALS. I think there is a tighter, firmer, more solid, ... start to the fundamental of Each and Every Note. Improved overtones, volume and time decay all follow that BETTER start. I have never heard a CD sound so good anywhere.
The 3 guitars on Friday Night in San Francisco, my favorite music to refine my cartridge’s anti-skate. I am very very familiar, love this music. I could not imagine the added degree of genuine realism this player got out of a standard CD.
I am sooooo glad I kept going on the DSD/no pcm conversion search, the unexpected big win here is the redbook cd output from it’s 8x oversampling filter.
SACD. Among others I have a series of Oscar Peterson performances, ’exclusively for my friends’. my prior listening conclusion was ’lower noise floor’, eh, I’m not spending a lot more for that. OH holy crap, first one I tried, Mellow Mood SACD, just landed in the room.
You know how a visitor says, "sounds like they are right there" and you know your system, you know it’s great, but no, right there it is not. This seemed like Oscar was playing my Uncle Johnnie’s piano right there!
LUXMAN engineers selected a pair of Texas Instruments 32-bit PCM1795 digital-to-analog converters to process digital signals with remarkable precision. Separating left and right channel conversion helps reveal the subtlest micro-dynamics.
Conversion of the digital data stored on the discs or in the digital music stream into an analog signal for playback is performed by a quad balanced, 8-channel, 32-bit/192kHz Digital-to-Analog Converter (DAC). Four DAC channels are dedicated to the left audio channel, and four to the right audio channel to ensure truly exceptional stereo sound reproduction.
I found/think, after the DAC(s) it really is the combo of an OEM's bag-o-tricks (over ... up.... re-..., anti... ) you 'prefer', why I finally found something I prefer to prior Sony which I preferred over many.
Still thinking about SACD DSD out the RCA jackswithout conversion to PCM.
I have been reading about some older SACD players. It's the aging of the lasers, belts, motors, dried lube that concerns me, but some tempting finds:
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Sony SCD-XA5400ES, 2009
SACD DSD out the RCA jacks, no conversion to PCM. Upscales CDs 8x to SACD numbers, then out same as SACD.
I’m following this thread closely. I’m not into streaming as of yet and have close to 2k CD’s. So far the best sounding setup I have push’s aside the Oppo and a few other players for an older Sony CDP-2700 feeding into a Denafrips Pontus ll dac.
The Sony was for industrial use and still works great, but it never came with a remote. So my old bones are looking for something that sounds as good or better and has a remote.
"The DVD-C961 has four two-channel Burr Brown 192kHz/24-bit DACs for the stereo and 5.1-channel output sections to provide absolute sonic transparency."
It sounds terrific, as good as the former winner, Integra CDC-3.4 mark II which I will now sell. Different Processors, Different OEM Bag-O-Tricks whatever they are.
I’m keeping the Yamaha as it plays the few SACDs I own, Integra is CDs Only. It’s a bit smaller, awkwardly has the drawer at the top, so it blocks the buttons when open, 5 discs, Integra has 6. Like Oppo’s the Yamaha has Audio Direct which avoids all video circuitry. Also, like the Oppo, I don’t hear any difference, but ...
It has 3 identical currently available rubber belts. Case off, Open the tray, in full view, no tools, simply replace them, couldn’t be easier.
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It has Digital Outs, so if you tried one, didn’t think it was great, you could always use it as a spinner and go to an outboard DAC. Does it send SACD out as DSD via the Optical Outs? I presume it converts DSD to PCM for the RCA out, but you still get the recording benefits of SACD.
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Answer to the former question: do I think I can get a great sounding CD player for not much money? Quite Happily, Hell Yes, I found Two!
WINNER, Yamaha, $133. including tax and delivery. Add $14. for two OEM belts for the future.
RUNNER UP, Integra CDC-3.4 Mark II, nearly new, $284. incl. tax and delivery. CD only, Never heard Mark I, I highly recommend the Mark II, (newer, remote RC778, serial # suffix M).
LOSER: Denon 2910, total loss -$54. I didn't like it's sound, too bright, then I lost a critical spring needed to try and replace the laser to read SACDs (I had it reading CD's). I was going to give it to somebody, now the recycler, oh well, I learned something.
1. I had the Denon finding CD’s, but not SACD. Returned/Received Replacement Laser. Successfully de-soldered two anti-static solder lumps on the laser, grabbed my little bag of parts to reassemble, 1 of 3 springs missing! F.....d without it. In the trash.
Humiliated.
2. Yamaha DVD-C961 arrived. As described: works, finds and plays SACD, CD, DVDs. Opens, loads. Problem: need to MANUALLY close the drawer. Sure enough, problem is a worn/stretched belt. Real easy fix, cover off: complete access to it’s 3 belts when the tray is extended, just put it on.
Remember? Mr. Fixit pre-ordered a mixed bag of belts and put them in a ’LOGICAL’ location.
"I don’t know what happens to the Bryston BCD-3 now that its chip manufacturer has burned down, but I can vouch that the player is superlative and at a slip under four grand a worthy value".
I wanted to buy one and Audo Advisor said Bryston has informed them they cannot say when the player will be available, again. Disappointing, to say the least.
This implies the majority of the benefits, the DSD recording stage is what counts
"I know a lot of people are wary about DSD to PCM conversion, but as big a fan of DSD as I am, I’m beginning to think that the benefits come from doing the digital <=> analogue conversions with DSD. Once in the digital domain, I don’t think DSD <=> PCM conversion is nearly so significant."
Right On! Never heard the 777ESD, but did enjoy the SCD-1. Could not afford it in the 2000's. I did own the 520ES for 25 years. Those early Japanese spinners were built to last for a long time. I wish I could have experienced the Kyocera back then.
The last Sony I had, used as a transport was the 777ESD. While full sounding, it also was very dark, lacked ambiance and detail. Great remote too and full featured! Used as a CDP, yuk! Could be the old caps and the power cord (but the Kyocera uses only A/C lamp cord yet sounds great). I had at least half dozen earlier Sonys 520, 620, etc.
Thank You for the follow up. I missed Kyocera back in the 80's. Back then I was a Sony ES fan/owner. Audiophiles still talk about the Kyocera brand. Some pieces of Audio gear are relevant in 2021.
@jafant The Kyocera 310. I've owned/heard over 50+ CDPs from the 80's 90's and 2000's (Denon 1500 was okay). I also owned a Cal Audio Tercet III and Muse Signature 9. The were vastly inferior with the Muse sounding awful replaced by a Marantz 63 prior to the EAR.
I haven't had as much bad experience with analog, keeping my 32 year old SME IV (modified) arm, Benz Ruby 3, VPI TNT V1, phono stage, pre-amp (both custom subminiature tube designs by Grover Huffman). With the Kyocera, I get at least an analog sound with ample tight bass, neutral mids, ample ambiance, smooth highs and most important the coherent sound like analog recordings. I have not heard in my system, high end CDPs such as Luxman, MSB, Meitner, Meridian, Esoteric, DCS, etc. They should be better but I'm trying to build a system using a separate DAC and transport. The Kyocera is very long in the tooth and may fail any day now to age (caps, laser, etc).
I will be very surprised if you are not thrilled with the new P.S.Audio CD/SACD transport and do not find it an improvement of your trusty older CD player.
If the new P.S.Audio CD/SACD is a sonic improvement of the PWT that's quite an accomplishment. The last generation PWT (I owned over 9 years) is really a good transport. Not sure I understand the Guttenberg Pro-Ject CD BOX RS2T comments.
He's right about the sound quality which in my opinion is simply splendid. It is very straightforward and simple to use. In regard to built quality it is definitely compact but very dense feeling with solid/rigid aluminum construction. Very well done. So curious as to what Guttenberg is specifically referring to. It's an excellent choice for someone interested in very upper tier well executed transport playback sound quality of Redbook CD.
@charles1dad My friend/neighbor has a high end system. He has 3,000 CDs and only plays them after ripping them using EAC to a thumbdrive. Then it goes to a Berkeley, then a Meridian UltraDAC, then an Audio Research SP28, then the amp/speaker. He controls everything from an large laptop 17" computer and volume from an ancillary mouse. However, he has many other gadgets in the way. Through his YG Sonja 2.3s, the sound is quite analog-like. It’s just too much work for me.
I just ordered the PS Audio PW Transport in October (they are backed up due to lack of boards) to go with my COS Engineering D1v DAC. Hopefully, that will sound as good as my 1987 CD player (the only one that sounds as good as analog to me until recent expensive CDPs above $10K. I tried the Cambridge CXC-thin, hard, forward and lacking in bass. The Denon 3910 was the best of a dozen DVDs and better than my EAR Acute as a transport but had a bright sound even with warm sounding digital cabling (Harmonic Tech from 10 years ago). I also saw Guttenberg’s comparison of the Jay’s Audio to the Project transport, the latter which he preferred. However, he also noted that the former appeared better conceived and built than the Project. Well, another month from now, hopefully I will know if the PS Audio is "good enough."
Looking at the threads comments, I realize it is hard for most modern people to think 'CD redbook only', thus the strong recommendation for separate DAC. My record producer friend had to burn discs to bring his music, his whole world is streaming, and high rez. He burnt and tossed all his CDs years ago.
correction: he likes Peter Gabriel's 'Sledgehammer', not Steamroller, that is James Taylor.
I listened quite a bit yesterday to music I am quite familiar, and Sledgehammer, after we had boosted the tweeters the night before. I realized, keeping the tweeters down a bit was not just limiting highs, it is a form of compression. It suppresses the volume, thus the proper time of decay of the overtones of the upper mids, as well as fundamental highs.
It is remarkable how easy it was for him to hear it and so fortunate we were able to correct my mistake with the L-Pads. Like anything else, a small improvement gets applied to everything, thus a huge improvement.
My mistake was I confused what the meter was hearing to what I 'would' hear. I simply assumed my ability to hear highs is naturally age reduced at 73. Thus, IF I heard 16k, it must be too high for others. Surprisingly I could hear 16k, but I didn't realize, the meter was hearing it in relation to everything else, like someone with young ears, i.e. not too strong, thus I set the highs 'not strong enough'. I heard 16K, but at what SPL?
Previously my audio consultant friend would bring his pro meter and I would adjust the original L-Pads as he directed. Replacing the L-Pads and buying/using a SPL meter on my own has be a learning and re-learning experience.
I got solid confirmation regarding 'look no further' after listening for 4 hours last night with my friend/neighbor/music producer. If not streaming higher resolution content, just playing CDs, the DAC(s)/Additives of some CD Players do a great job.
he brought music he just mixed, music he won a grammy for, and we played lots of my music, LP's and CD versions via the Integra CDC-3.4.
He likes Peter Gabriel, Steamroller as a quick revealing test. I have favorites I find revealing. 1st round darn good, but ....then we tweaked the tweeters a bit higher with their L-Pads, then he pronounced the system sound, imaging, depth excellent. You can imagine how happy I was to hear that.
I had been over-cautious with the tweeters, I got +/- 1.5db up to10k, then let the highs drop slowly from there. He heard that, I twirled the controls a speck at a time L & R, he listened and thinks we got it just right. He's interested to know what the meter says we did. Of course I will get L/R equal if they are not.
I'm lucky to know him, a great guy, brought some good beer, told me some funny stories ....
I only paid $28. for this Denon (big dented top) (plus shipping and tax = $52 total). I never checked with Denon. After 2 days, it stopped finding discs, I got the seller to pay for this laser, refunded $28., so he ended up with nothing, and I ended up with a $52. risk I was willing to take to fix it.
If it does only CD's ok, if SACD also, even better. If SACD, then it probably will play video also.
I'm trying to fix it, but have no use for it. I'm keeping the Integra and will give the Denon to my son or sell it.
seller considered the hints that it read both types at first (probable that other stuff is not bad), then erratic, then stopped reading; then replacement read CD only was enough for the seller to simply be nice and offer a replacement.
He seemed to have confidence in my ability to remove the two anti-static blobs of solder successfully and adjust the allen screws/laser alignment enough, so a defective laser is a possibility, that never occured to me.
Hamlet, sitting beside his mother, asks her what she thinks about it and she replies: ‘The lady doth protest too much, methinks,’
You made a solid case for HiFi, which could be restated as: ONLY high cost gets you high quality. Of course I do occasionally wonder: what if this ... combined with .... that?
I could spend more, however, I definitely do not equate cost with results. I do equate what I hear to what I have heard.
Using my methods, compared to everything I have heard here and elsewhere, I finally successfully found a wonderful improvement, a new level of involvement for all my CD’s, thru my system, in this space.
No one who has listened here thinks it is MidFi. Ultimate HiFi, no way, but a mighty fine and involving music system and a lot of great content to enjoy. That's my goal!
Come listen, then pronounce what you hear (not what you presume) to be ……?
I do not doubt your impressions. You have a much later and further up the model line unit compared to mine (Thus my caveat in my prior post). My unit was so early generation it was referred to as TEAC-Esoteric. So I don't believe that it's an apple to aplle comparison.
Wow, pretty early model purchased new circa late 1990s-2000. Used it with the Timbre Technology TT-1DAC. It was good and rock solid reliable. I found it analytical relative to the PWT which had more fluidity naturaalness in presentation. Certainly subsequent generation Esoteric transports could have gotten better.
I do understand the convenience of ripping CDs and streaming. A friend of mine has ripped his CDs to file storage and loves controlling recordings via his IPad. Conversely I have my CDs arranged alphabetically in racks within my listening room. I have no issues with getting up and selecting CDs as desired. No doubt either choice can be gratifying.
It seems I think a bit more highly of the PWT than you 😊. I preferred it to an earlier generation Esoteric VDRS transport I had used previously. But yes the Pro-Ject is special.
@charles1dadThe improvements you're hearing with Pro-Ject vs PWT are exactly what I heard with my Mark Levinson No37 vs PWT. I could never get past lower resolution and transparency of PWT. The PWT lack of performance, even after my mods, motivated my conversion to streaming. I was looking at replacment transports at much higher price point than PWT. Couldn't justify the purchase as I presume cd's will be obsolete in coming years. Ripped all my cd's to NAS, not missing cd players or transports.
Having said that, the Pro-Ject sounds like a winner.
I want to be very clear. I used the PWT in my audio system for 9 years and enjoyed every moment of it. In my humble opinion it is an excellent CD transport. I could keep it another 9 years and continue to be happy with it. The Pro-Ject CD transport does not blow away the PWT nor does it make it sound broken. I just want to clear the air on that. The PWT has been a very highly regarded transport for a long time and justifiably so.
The Pro-Ject CD BOX RS2 is better sounding than the PWT is this regard. It is a higher resolution component. Clarity, transparency and openness are improved. There is more air and a capturing of venue ambience. Both macro and micro dynamics are an improvement. The sense/awareness of musical pace and flow are improved. It can really get your toes to tapping and your head nodding in beat to the music.
The Pro-Ject is more fluid with an ease and effortless vibe. Very similar to what a really high-quality analog base system can do (And not every analog front end system achieves this coveted characteristic). The PWT did this well and is natural and engages you emotionally. The Pro-Ject takes this to yet a higher level. It is thoroughly organic and superb with tone and timbre of instruments and vocals.
The PWT is in absolute terms "very " good. The Pro-Ject is superb. That’s the essential distinction for me. Each one of us is different and we have to make our own specific/individual assessment. I would be surprised if you found the move to the Pro-Ject merely sidewards.
I received my Pro-Ject CD BOX RS2 transport today @charles1dad
Hey charles1dad, have you possibly reinserted your old PWT into your system to "reconfirm" how much better thd new Pro-ject sounds?
I am interested in any new comparison details that you might have noticed.
I was very impressed when I inserted a PWT in my system and would hate to try the Pro-ject and end up deciding I hear a sideways move versus an improvement.
I purchased my Pro-Ject from Underwood Hifi and no returns unless a faulty/malfunctioning unit. I took my chances due to
1 universally positive comments from a multitude of credible and trusted Audiogon members.
2 Very competitive pricing and Underwood has a very good long term record as an audio retailer. So glad I purchased the Pro-Ject RS2 Transport. It’s truly marvelous sounding .@in_shore description is on the money! Bill I know that you understand the significant impact the CD transport has on sound quality.
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