Best vintage DD turntables from the 70's and 80's?
Howdy folks-
We’ll I’ve got the vinyl bug for sure. 6 months ago, I bought my first TT, a nice Technics 1200 GR along with some killer vintage MM carts like Audio-Technica, Stanton and a few Grace. I love my GR! I love that little silver bastard A LOT as a matter of fact. A couple weeks ago, my second table arrived, a minty fresh Luxman PD-444 from Japan. This is a Micro Seiki built TT and was the "tits" in the mid 70’s. I can mount 2 arms on the Luxman. I’ve got a nice Victor 7045 arm coming soon along with a Victor X-1IIe MM cart which work quite well together.
I’d like to add another Vintage TT from the 70’s or 80’s and probably phase out the GR. I like the look of the old Pioneer, Denon and Victor tables. I’d like to get a vintage table that can be serviced if needed, something I can add a sweet vintage arm too. 3 arms are better than two!
I’d like to hear suggestions and comments on some fantastic, cool as crap, vintage turntables that you think should sit next to the Luxman.
When I worked for RSL in the 1970s we were a Luxman dealer. As I recall, the Luxman repair tech that would come by the stores occasionally told me that the PD-441 and PD-444 motors were designed for Luxman and manufactured by Teac.
When I worked for RSL in the 1970s we were a Luxman dealer. As I recall, the Luxman repair tech that would come by the stores occasionally told me that the PD-441 and PD-444 motors were designed for Luxman and manufactured by Teac.
bimasta, Biggest difference between M-S DDX1000 and DQX1000, in addition to all the other differences you point out, is that the latter has a quartz-referenced speed control, whereas the DDX does not. A very important difference.
You ask or looking for a vintage TT where you can mount 3 arms and that DD vintage is the MS DDX-1000.
I have Micro's successor model, DQX-1000. Many improvements, e.g. higher torque motor, and heavier platter, though thinner, and low center of gravity. I like the looks of both, kind of "retro high-tech". I also have the Denon DP80. I can't praise it enough. It has all the virtues of the Garrard 301 and Thorens 124 I used to own, with none of their drawbacks.
I'm happy to see someone here recognized the excellence of the Denon DP80 as against the Technics backbone of this thread. Enjoy! I think it's a Best Buy, if you can find a nice one. I agree with Downunder on the relationship between the Pioneer Exclusive P3 and P10. The P3 is thought to be superior by a wide margin. JP alluded to the difference between the P3 and P3a. Yes, the P3a is said to have a better S/N ratio, but there was a change in the method for measuring S/N associated with the introduction of the P3a (1979, I think) that might account for the better number associated with the P3a. There may be other small physical differences between the two, but I never found any testimony to support the notion that P3a was superior to P3, and market values are the same for both models. High. Sadly, I have no personal experience with either.
haha, definitely without arms :)) but only to look at, i've never tried in action as i don't have tonearm pod, but i think it must be pretty good if the owner will have one or two tonearm pods and those special preumatic footers. With tonearm pods everyone could swap the arm quickly, but the platrorm under the turntable/pods must be nice too.
You’d better ask jpjones about new vs. old Technics.
In my opinion square chassis of SP-10mkIII is not good for two tonearms, the plinth must be huge for two arms and the arms must be "12 inch ideally. Stock Obsidian plinth is not designed for two tonearms, not even for "12 inch tonearm. My teak wood custom plinth was big even for one tonearm, imagine how big it must be for two tonearms. Normally plinth makers asking for a plinth more than we paid for turntable.
Here is a pic of my old Technics with several tonearms: 1) Schick "12 inch + SPU 2) EPA-100 "10.5 + ZYX Airy III EPA-100 3) Reed 3P "12 + Glanz 61 4) Without arms and plinth on Audio-Technica pneumatic footers.
Anyway each time i think about custom plinth it’s a P.I.T.A., because someone have to make them and it’s too complicated if you don’t have the right person to deal with.
This is the reason i love my pair of Luxman PD-444, i can forget about that plinth problem, i can use any tonearms i want, i can install them quickly and swap them quickly.
Thank you @rauliruegas for your suggestions. With all the suggestions I've gotten on this thread and the research I've done, I can't say that I can do any better than the Luxman.
1. First of all, it's super hard to find some of these suggested vintage tables, IF you can find them.
2. IF you do find one, it's gonna cost a lot and it might need some work done still. The build quality of the Luxman is top notch. I wouldn't want anything less.
3. As @chakster states, the "Classics" are in a league of their own. Like a classic car, but you still have to find one and fix it if needed.
4. I need flexibility to be able to change arms too and I'm seeing most of these vintage tables have fixed arms. That's why the Luxman is so good for this reason. Easy peasy to swap out arms.
Now, what I'm beginning to think of is entertaining the thought of selling the Technics GR at some time and getting a bad ass NEW table that has the ability for 2 arms. Something really cool. Direct drive the way to go? Not interested in having to fidget with belts etc unless it's not a problem.
I'm going to research some of the new tables and see what I come up with.
Some people just don't understand that classic high-end only increased its value over the years on the used marked, while the new high-end only decreased in value once it leave the shop. New Technics turntables will be availabe for the next 20 years and the price will be lower on the used market (except for the limited edition model). Some of the best vintage DD turntables getting rare and highly collectible. Some of them are incredibly good compared to the most new turntables. Like a classic cars they have charming design compared to the ugly turntables of today.
I've had a few DD tables over the years, but recently picked up a Denon DP-80. It really is marvelous. I have it mounted in a custom two-armed plinth and while I will continue to run other decks I think it really is for me the "end game" table. It just does everything right, does no ill and is incredibly quick and easy to use. What more can one ask for?
There are two versions of P3, the best one is P3-A - right ?
They are the same table except for the tonearm which has some different specs to be more compatible with lighter more modern lower compliance carts as I was told once. I have had no issues with modern cart’s at all, so perhaps more to have a new model when the Technics SP10mk3 was released.
According to the vintageknob the signal-to-noise ratio went from 78dB on the P3 to 95dB on the P3A, so I suppose it is correct to assume it is (much) better.
as JP mentioned, that is incorrect. If you read the footnote, all that happened was a different way to measure signal to noise ratio. The P3 and P3a are the same table and both measure the same.
I love my JVC QL-Y7F. Unbelievably quiet and detailed. I love the electronic arm (this coming from someone who just sold a Triplanar) and the auto and cueing features. My backup is a Technics SP10 Mk2 which has been refurbished. As good as the SP10 is, the JVC always sounded better to me. The SP10 sounds a little "edgy" in comparison, i.e the JVC is more smooth and relaxed. I A/B'ed the tables using a Lyra Delos.
I also had a number of belt driven tables before trying DDs. Invariably I stopped listening to classical piano records on these tables (think Beethoven sonatas, or Ivan Moravec playing Chopin) because of the wow/flutter that is non-existent on DDs. If you are sensitive to this distortion, a lot of belt drives (or more likely just the slipping belts) don't cut it.
And how many times have I forgotten to lift the arm at the end of the record so that it spun for hours in the lead-out grove. The JVC has a great auto-return and shutoff mechanism.
According to the vintageknob the signal-to-noise ratio went from 78dB on the P3 to 95dB on the P3A, so I suppose it is correct to assume it is (much) better.
According to the vintageknob the signal-to-noise ratio went from 78dB on the P3 to 95dB on the P3A, so I suppose it is correct to assume it is (much) better. The P10 was also high up on the list of that Japanese turntable shoot-out in Stereo Sound magazine in 1980, but the P3 was the clear winner.
The Exclusive P10 is reportedly very close sonically to the P3 and should give you more leeway financially.
I own the P3 and have owned two P10's. the P10 is a very nice table, however the P3 is in another universe as far as as sound quality goes.
Outside of the parts of the tonearm - its very cool being able to swap arm wands between both tables, everything else on the P3 is built exclusively for the P3 and is the best table Pioneer knew how to make and it sounds amazing.
The tonearm of the PL-70L II is very similar to the one on the P3 and P10, but not identical. The most obvious difference is that the P3/P10 arm is dynamically balanced, whereas the PL-70L II arm is statically balanced. The P3/P10 armlift also has its own lever on the armbase (instead of a push button on the plateau rim, like on the 70L). It may have been available as a separate product, but I don't remember ever seeing it for sale. So it must have been quite rare, which would then go a long way to explain a $4k asking price.
The Exclusive P10 is reportedly very close sonically to the P3 and should give you more leeway financially. But for some reason it is much rarer on the used market than the P3.
There's one for sale on Canuck Audio Mart ... but deal with it before it disappears quickly.
Dear @knollbrent : You ask or looking for a vintage TT where you can mount 3 arms and that DD vintage is the MS DDX-1000.
But for your budget range between 5K-10K you don't have to go with vintage DD TTs.
Today you can get extremly good BD TTs that accepts 3 tonearms as the Acoustic Signature that are really good. I like DD but exist very good BD and when you buy a today TT you don't have to woorry to re-furbished or in case of a problem where will be fixed.
edgeware made a good point, and so did Chakster: The PL70 has an edge on its competition at its price point, by virtue of its included tonearm, which seems to be the same as the one on the P3. I've seen that tonearm for sale separately at prices in excess of $4,000.
My research also indicates that the lesser Yamaha's, below the GT2000, are not to be taken as seriously as the GT2000. (We are talking about ultimate products here. Surely the GT1000 and 750 will "work" and play LPs ok.) Moreover, keep in mind that the GT2000X is really the one to die for.
If you have max. $5k to spend - not including a cartridge - you might be able to put your mind on the Exclusive P3. HifiDo generally offers it for a little under $5k. But you have to add shipping cost, which will not be cheap. And you will need to move fast.
The Exclusive P10 is reportedly very close sonically to the P3 and should give you more leeway financially. But for some reason it is much rarer on the used market than the P3. The P10 has been on my radar for several years as a possible upgrade to the PL-70L II, but it almost never comes on offer.
Oeps, I just realize I’m creating my own competition here for acquiring a P10, but I reckon this honest recommendation will be good for karma....... ;-).
I’d like to hear suggestions and comments on some fantastic, cool as crap, vintage turntables that you think should sit next to the Luxman.
It all depends on your spending budget; going from some hundred dollars of a Technics Sp 15 to a some tens of thousands of dollars of a Denon DP 100 or an Onkyo PX100M there are an infinite number of goods turntables.
First reveal the budget then you can indicate something between the great and excellent.
I owned a Micro Seiki DDX-1000, awesome table with room for 3 arms, they also made a DQX-1000 that was a quartz oscillator locked model. I used 2 arms, a Micro Seiki MA-505 and an Infinity carbon fiber Black Widow, both worked very well. I don't know off the top of my head any other tables with 3 arm capability in this price range, though I'm sure there must be some others out there. Good luck in your endeavors and enjoy.
My dedicated mono deck is a Technics SP15 , AT1503 MKiii arm, and Ortofon CG25 DI MK2 cartridge. I have tried several stereo MM cartridges in the combo- V15III HE / Empire 4000Z and 4000T / Empire EDR .9 The EDR was the best followed by the V15III. For mono its the bees knees- strong and stable with considerable "drive" and verve. Solo piano (and other solo instruments) sound real in a corporeal sense. In stereo it also sounds great, but different than my LP12 ITOKK LVII Denon 103D (SS ruby rebuild). The SP15 has better bass and solidity to the presentation, but overall is just not as engaging to me. That said, the SP15 is a damn fine deck !
I'm sure you guys know this, but HiFido in Japan is a great source for these and related vintage DD tables and other gear. Their prices are considerably below eBay level and therefore you need to move quickly. And they have waiting lists for sought after items. For instance, the Exclusive P3 - which comes around at a regular basis - is always sold immediately on the same day it is listed.
BTW judging from their listings the Yamaha GT series (the 750, 1000 and even the 2000) seem to be less rare than those Pioneer PL-xxL II series.
During that time, I bought the only DD turntable I ever owned, a Goldmund Studio. I still use it fairly frequently and it has never broken, although I do treat it and the later T3F arm like fragile old ladies in order to increase their life.
I'm not sure I'd call it the "best", but when I was looking for a turntable with auto shut off, I found a Realistic Lab 440. It's a very nice table and fully automatic. It was a little fussy when I first got it, but the shop I bought it from went back through it and it has performed flawlessly since. I have better turntables, but this one is good enough that it spent some time in my main system and was very enjoyable.
I agree, the PL-70II or P-10, i wish i could find one. They are so nice compared to modern Pioneer’s crapy turntables, the best ever MM cartridge designed for this Pioneer tonearm is PC-1000 mkII (Beryllium cantilever). Here is PC-1000 mkII MM on Pioneer P-3 turntable with removed wooden plinth, look what’s inside. Lewm’s favorite P-3 with coreless motor is amazing, read more about it.
PL-70-II is much cheaper alternative, but i would give them my prize for design.
I have owned the Exclusive P3 for almost 10 years of perfect fault free performance. One of the best tables ever made. The Technic s EPC100 EPC mk4 is an amazing cart as well, although the suspension is fragile.
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