Sorry, please move to "Misc Audio". I saw other questions on fuses here in tech talk, that's why I thought this was the right forum. Any mods out there?
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What is your entire set of equipment, including cables? Basically, two options. Choose the Isoclean if you want a nice but little warmer sound. Choose Furutech if you want high resolution and deep tight bass. Careful on the Furutech as it is very revealing... sometimes to the point of revealing problems in your system (such as bad interconnects or power cords). |
See link for Cable Company Master List of Audiophile Fuses. I count 9 fuses under $70. https://www.thecableco.com/Catalog/Fuses cheers, GK |
Interrupting ratings: 200,000 amps rms symmetrical Time delay optional: Minimum of 12 seconds at 200% current rating. DescriptionThe CCMR series is ideal for space saving protection of motors up to 40 hp*. It was designed specifically to withstand sustained starting currents of small motors. The CCMR 60 fuse is the smallest 60 A fuse available rated at 600 V. Compared to other UL Listed fuses, Class CC fuses are the most current-limiting, rating for rating.Features/Benefits• POWR-PRO® Performance• Extremely current-limiting• Ratings up to 60 Amps• 300 kA Interrupting Rating (self-certified)Applications• Motor and motor branch circuit protection the best non pricey fuses are the ones with the highest ’interrupt’ peak ratings. Ie, time delay with very high peak currents, at the same time they blow at low sustained currents. Littlefuse, cooper/bussman, schurter, SOC (one of the originals, that’s why they are in what is approaching.. 40 years worth of almost all Japanese amplifiers), and others. One must be careful though, as they can mess with their warranty and more, ie, house insurance, and more...if they start playing with fuses that are not meant for the application they are being used for/in. That’s why the fusing info always says "replace with same TYPE fuse ONLY". http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/electrical/datasheets/fuses/industrial-and-ul-fuses/littelfuse_fus... |
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analogluvr330 posts08-09-2017 9:41pm I buy a package of six Bussman's for under $10. Only fools spend more! Only bigger fools think that directionality makes a difference. Bigger fool's yet sell bags of rocks. The biggest fools of all buy them +1. Only the gullible get drawn into this, with expectation bias. Cheers George |
georgehifi analogluvr330 posts08-09-2017 9:41pm I buy a package of six Bussman’s for under $10. Only fools spend more! Only bigger fools think that directionality makes a difference. Bigger fool’s yet sell bags of rocks. The biggest fools of all buy them +1. Only the gullible get drawn into this, with expectation bias. Cheers George You don’t even know what expectation bias is, do you, George? Another example of backwards marching anti audiophiles trying to come up some silly reason why everyone else is marching forward. Let’s not turn yet another fuse thread into yet another flaming pile of anti audiophile diatribes and frothing personal attacks. 🚶 🚶 🚶 🚶 |
I buy a package of six Bussman's for under $10.robertsong These are all you need to buy, don't get sucked into the fuse b/s. It's started by non technical dreamers, trying to be "audio gurus". Cheers George |
I am actually frustrated reading these posts. Please do not insult others because they think different. You may believe that fuses make absolutely no difference. You are welcome to write that opinion, but dropping down to calling people names because they think a certain way is just negative and it makes me feel bad and others feel bad. Telling people they are wrong to think a certain way in an area that is so subjective to personal taste and opinion just creates an environment that discourages people from exploring and participating in this hobby. It is always relative. There are people who believe that Bose speakers are just as good as $$$$ Wilsons or Focal, etc. However, there are many people who can definitely tell the difference. Both are able to reproduce the same frequencies (in the general range). I'm sure many people can tell differences between speaker cable or even power cords. The fuse is just another element in the power cord line. This is where metallurgy does come into play. Different fuses are made from different materials and can affect the voltage signature in different ways, even if we may not be able to measure this using precision equipment. I personally can hear the effect of just putting in a silver-plated fuse holder (which technically has less influence that an actual fuse). This was another attribute that tells me that silver is not right for my own preferences. Other people may give the opinion that a fuse or a silver-plated fuse holder will make no difference and they may not hear any difference. That is perfectly fine. Let's keep it real and positive. |
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I was just wondering why circuit breakers aren't considered too. I am a non-believer in the fuse thing, but if there is an influence with the fuse you use, a CB would take that out of the equation. I assume it's due to the additional cost for the manufacturer, but I also wondered if there was a sonic reason they aren't utilized or modded into the amps. |
There are some out there. Some Bryston amps use a switched circuit breaker instead of fuse (not the same as power switch). The Emotiva Gen 3 amplifier uses a push-button circuit breaker.. Oppomod actually adds a 2A circuit breaker instead of a fuse on their "Ultimate MOD". I have not tested differences between fuse and circuit breaker. |
Yes, Tube Research Labs designer never used fuses in his big dollar tube amps and preamps. He used very high quality circuit breakers as an on/off switch instead. Best sounding tube gear I have ever heard due to many design reasons, but the absence of fuses helped for sure. He used Heinemann breakers. |
Don't know if these are the same 2A Heinemann beakers with the correct trip curve or not, but $12 is less than a high-end fuse, for sure. https://www.amazon.com/EATON-HEINEMANN-CIRCUIT-BREAKER-THERMAL/dp/B01GBY5NBE?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSH... |
The comments that say "no fuse is the best fuse" is actually correct. Hardwiring A/C straight into the power supply allows full current capability without the restriction of the fuse. However, this is a safety issue and there is no potential protection to your circuit if it gets overloaded. To substantiate, I have temporarily tested high capacity 10A fuses in a DAC that normally used a 1A fuse. This somewhat simulates the idea of a "no fuse" situation because the conductor wire in the 10A fuse is significantly larger than the 1A fuse. The type/brand of the fuse in this situation has much less influence. However, the metallurgy of the fuse still has a little influence over the sonic signature (I can hear this). Circuit breaker is probably the best solution for this. I'm not sure that the cheap thermal circuit breakers will perform as good (as bullit posted above). Looking at a circuit breaker design: http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/circuit-breaker2.htm You can see that the contact is extremely firm and the internal wiring/metal is very large. "Increasing current boosts the electromagnet's magnetic force, and decreasing current lowers the magnetism. When the current jumps to unsafe levels, the electromagnet is strong enough to pull down a metal lever connected to the switch linkage. The entire linkage shifts, tilting the moving contact away from the stationary contact to break the circuit." The electromagnetic circuit breakers are better in my opinion. However, there is a hydraulic delay as the electromagnet charges enough to "move" the contact away. It operates more like a slo-blow fuse, which is fine for most components. This shows a list of 1A electromagnetic circuit breakers. The price ranges and not all of them are as expensive as a audiophile fuse. The challenge is fitting them into your device and mounting/cutting a hole. |
Actually, looking over that list, the Sensata SNAPAK model is really the best choice. It is the only one that does not require a special DIN mount. You can solder or use clip quick connect terminals to attach wire. All you really need to do is drill a couple holes in the device back panel (or wherever). One large hole for the main part and a tine hole for the locking pin. |
I just assembled some fuzes with genuine horse crap impregnated which allows current to flow faster and cleaner and will sell them for 75$ each. It's a steal at this price as nothing else conducts like crap! Or you could save your money for a Reel to Reel tape deck and get some acoustic sounds or International Phonograph Inc master tapes and really hear what your system will do.... |
I would be VERY careful with the Furutech fuses. Let me first say that all of my wall outlets are Furutechs: I had the GTX -D Rhodiums, and, until the NCF came out, I completely missed how bland they were and how much color that was a part of the music they bleached out. It took the NCFs for me to realize why my system sounded less than "sweet" (not euphonic sweetness: I mean the way it sounds in Boston Symphony Hall. Real people. Real orchestra. Real music). The Furutech fuses are similar in that respect. Lean-sounding (unless they have a new line out), Unfortunately, I found a fuse I had put away years ago and could never find it again: The Audio Horizon. I put it in the PS Audio P-300, after removing a Synergistic Red fuse, and zowie! I don’t recall it sounding that way 5 years ago. Maybe it mellowed, like fine wine. That said, fuses have a sonic signature. I know that one other poster and I both had PS Audio P300s, and I discovered, in here, no less, that he had reached the same conclusion as I did: the best fuse for the P300 was the Synergistic Red fuse. I have the Black fuses, too, but I wouldn’t put it in the P300. I’m not sure who makes a top quality fuse under $50, but wanted to warn you away from the Furutechs. They are lying around this room somewhere...I just don’t CARE where they are. |
You don't necessarily need the CB to be inside the chassis. You could wire it into the power cord externally and either bypass the existing fuse holder or put a very high amperage fuse in the existing fuse holder. Maybe all these uber expensive power cord manufactures should put a CB in them. Or even the fancy power receptacle manufactures could include a current limiting device similar to what they do with the GFI circuits. A current limiting device will protect everything past it. So that would actually add protection to the power cable too. Not really necessary, but still an advantage. |
Welcome to Audiogon, robzz. gbmcleod, your post above is an excellent example of the kind of post that has been long awaited on the topic of fuses vs the usual banal debates. Recognition that fuses can and often do made audible differences, that there are individual sonic differences between and within brands, that it is key is to find the one that best suits a given piece of gear and listener preferences and, most importantly, going further to provide specific observations/recommendations to another on different fuses in a specific component based on your actual first-hand experience is, well, Wunderbar. Hat off to you. Dave |
My stereo amp uses 7 fuses ! Replacing the original glass fuses with ceramic fuses made a positive improvement , I then purchased an expensive fuse for the main power and while I did hear an improvement over an off the shelf fuse I can't say it was big enough to justify the many times the price I paid . I did discover that you should purchase a name brand fuse , I had used generic fuses from my local electronics supplier and discovered the difference in sonics after one blew and I replaced the 6 on the board with Bussman fuses. Wow what a positive difference. I went further and replaced the 6 sets of fuse holders on the baord with Littlefuse solid copper silver plated holders and I replaced the 20 amp main fuse holder with a military spec 30 amp holder. AND NO YOU ARE NOT A FOOL AS analogluvr WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE. IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT AND YOU HEAR AN IMPROVEMENT GO FOR IT . Being an audiophile is fun, it's personal and it's expensive . |
@gbmcleod i bought one of the those furutech outlets from you. After over a year in my system I don't disagree with you. But, after having installed the gold hifi tuning fuses the something is off little niggle I couldn't put my finger on is now replaced by a wonderful balance. I lost an SR20 fuse right about the time PartsConnexion had 50% off the HiFi fuses. So with this bit of serendipity or just dumb luck whatever you want to call it the sound that was leaning lean for me is replaced with a more natural fullness along with no loss in detail. Oh and the bass is sounding more like a bass as well. So excited to have purchased something that really is not subtle or is of questionable value to performance ratio. Now I'm sure I'll be thinking about those NCF outlets but for now things are definitely Bueno. |
Finally, a sane discussion on the differences with fuses. I've been so tempted, as of late, to get some SR Black fuses to replace my HiFi Tuning Sliver Stars but lately, from what I've read here and on other threads, the Blacks may be too much of a good thing and lean things out. It took me about two years to just try reversing the HiFi fuses in my Marantz SACD player (I was very hesitant) and the improvement shocked me. It just sounds so right as of now. Can anyone chime in who has been in my particular neck of the woods on any noticeable improvement by going up to a Red or Black fuse over a HiFi Tuning Silver Star? It would be most appreciated. All the best, Nonoise |
@gbmcleod - in my initial posting, I also said to be careful with Furutech fuses. They are very revealing and VERY TRANSPARENT. This means that it will reveal problems or inadequacies in areas of your system that other fuses may compensate for or mask thereof. An example would be a preamp with a somewhat undersized power supply. The Furutech fuse being fast and transparent can cause the preamp to sound lean in the bass/midbass area because the power supply does not truly have enough capacitance to keep constant voltage on the large waveforms (and even the midrange waveforms that can become shouty/forward). A fuse that will slow down the charge/discharge and make this preamp sound warmer and fill in the bass/midrange area. As I have said, the Furutech is very revealing of problems and it may not be the path that everyone want to start. You may end up working to fix every other problem/characteristic in your system. However, if you choose this path, the end result will be the very best (in my opinion). @fourwnds - I have also had similar experiences with SR20 fuse. The SR20 is very fast and very clean. It is so clean that it almost becomes artificial to me (almost similar to a silver fuse) and I lose emotional contact with the music. I have also experienced where the bass is definitely lean with this fuse. Trying a Hi-Fi Tuning gold (discontinued)fuse was an improvement and the sound was a lot warmer. However, over time I determined that the Gold has somewhat of a metallic edge to the sound and it wasn’t the fastest fuse. The HI-Fi Tuning Supreme (silver) was nice, but it had that push in the upper mids (silver) that caused it to be less natural sounding to me and more artificial. This may be a good mating with tube equipment or very slow/laid back stuff. I encourage all to re-read a history thread: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/direction-of-aftermarket-fuses-only-for-believers A lot has been discussed here on fuses, and it’s not a 4,000 post thread like the "RED thread". |
@nonoise - I experimented with the RED fuse several years ago when initial comparing fuses. The RED is probably the most forgiving fuse in the entire bunch that I have tried. It will generally sound good in any piece of equipment that you put it in. However, it is definitely not high-resolution. My feelings was that it made my preamp sound very mid-fi in sound quality. The Isoclean fuse was actually a little faster, better resolution, and a bit warmer at the same time. I think the RED would be like an Isoclean with a bit of resolution trimmed off the top. I never tried the BLACK fuse because it just seemed too expensive for me and I did not wade through the 4000 post RED thread. Same with Audio Magic fuses, as they are just too expensive for the number of fuses I have to incorporate into my entire system. |
@auxinput-thanks for the helpful feedback. Higher resolution and focus are paramount to me as I feel the rest of my system is up to par. I can always use a little more high end extension and air, decay, and ambience without the stridency or hash and have more resolution depth-wise, in the soundstage. Most is recording dependent but the additional benefits tell me that what can be extracted remains to be seen (heard). 😀 The HiFi Silver Stars (once reversed) showed me what's possible as the afore mentioned qualities appreciably improved in that direction. Like you, I don't want to spend so much for the Blacks and maybe the SR20 fuses would be what I'm looking for. I'll reread your linked thread as well. All the best, Nonoise |
@nonoise - if you believe the rest of your system is up to par, you could try a Furutech fuse in one component (such as your preamp), and then go from there. You may decide to convert to Furutech one component at a time. However, like I said, the Furutech is very much a DOUBLE EDGE SWORD. It can reveal every little problem in your system. It will reveal poor quality electrolytic capacitors that contain a lot of electrical resonance and all of a sudden your system sounds too bright and harsh. It can reveal speaker drivers that are ringing/break-up/blare because now your system is so strong that it has a rock hard muscle moving these speaker voicecoils. If you are ultimately after more resolution, air, extension, decay, deep bass resolution and punch, etc., the Furutech may be your end-game and I believe the work is worth the effort. However, it can be a lot of EFFORT!. The SR20 is very clean and I have seen it excel in tube electronics. Listening to it, I think there is somewhat of a roll-off in the very high frequencies, so you will probably not get as much "air" and "ambience" as the Furutech. The SR20 are 60% off at Parts Connexion right now (clearance sale), so it might be worth it for $23 a fuse to try them out. |
@auxinput-Thanks again for the feedback. I just came back from rereading your link and the one I linked to back to an audiophile in Singapore who tested all the fuses around before the SR Blacks came out and what he had to say as well. I then checked out his system page and he has more invested in his gear than some people have in their homes. And surprise, surprise, what he has in his system are the SR20 fuses for his Calyx Femto DAC and Telos QBT-18 fuses for his Conrad Johnson GAT and ART mono blocks. Costs are not a concern of his and he chose the SR20s. That, and what you just told me will have me checking them out as well as the Furutech brand, which I think are made by the same folk who make PADIS fuses, which I can get from Germany via eBay. By the way, I don't mind the wait that it takes for rhodium to burn in as I've replaced the spades for bananas on my Zu Event SCs and they are rhodium over copper and the jump in sound quality is most appreciated. Time to do some sleuthing. All the best, Nonoise |
PADIS. Wow, that’s so interesting that I had to go pull one of my own Furutech fuses. Surely enough, it does have the Padis "PFA" logo printed on the fuse in addition to the "Furutech" label. Interesting. Research indicates that Padis is a European distributor for Furutech. The Padis marketed fuses are cheaper. However, it’s unknown whether they are the same as the "Furutech" branded fuses. https://www.amazon.de/Padis-FUSE-Feinsicherung-Stromst%C3%A4rke-Ansprechverhalten/dp/B005LF1ZL2 A translation of the above PADIS listed on Amazon indicates a pure silver conductor (which is the same as the Furutech T13A fuse targeted for European usage). It is not the same as the standard Furutech TF series fuses. A couple of things that I could not find on a generic PADIS fuse: - special low induction copper alloy conductor (probably Phosphorous Bronze or Beryllium Copper). - ceramic body with special damping filler It’s unkown to me if the generic PADIS fuses have these two characteristics or if they are just non-filled fuses with silver conductors (which will cause it to sound much different than the Furutech branded fuses). The generic PADIS fuses are definitely cheaper than the "Furutech" branded fuses. |