beryllium vs diamond

kossk, cool it on reiterating how you built your amp and about your focal speakers. You are too repetitive about it and all of us who like reading your posts are well aware of it..

I find audiotroy’s post refreshing, and if I read between the subliminal advertising and weed them out, which is easy, so what.

This is not a dig on you. Top notch gear is really expensive, and anyone who has wasted enough money to know all about it is either really rich, without kids, foolish or a dealer, which Audiotroy is.

Kost the Persona series aren’t particularlly difficult to drive. In the case of the 9H you are powering only a midrange and tweeter, so they can’t be a difficult load at all.

Your understanding of audio is that is comes down to impedance guess what that is not the case.

We have done plently of demos where substituting one powerful solid state amplifier with another equilly powerful solid state amplifier on the same load, same everything else, and the sound was radically different.

Why don’t you answer our question, do you believe that two competantly designed amplifiers sound different?

Do you think that a Pass Labs, sounds the same a Solution amplifier, given the exact same load? Why do you think that would be?

The two amplifiers use different parts, different feedback, different classes of operation, so why would they sound the same and each one would not have a distintly different sound?

We don’t look at the electrical characteristics other than the load and the loudspeakers efficiency. We have tested many amplifiers as noted above and gotten very different effects.

When we were looking for amplifiers for the Polymers and the Personas we tested CJ ART, Chord, Electrcompaniet, Manley, Electrcompaniet, Devialet, Thrax and T+A guess what each amplifier sounded different.

You need to start to learn what audio is all about, your rally car analogy was dumb, and if you can’t understand our analogy of dropping just a Ferrari engine into a stock Toyota Camry and expecting that combination to drive like a stock Ferrari you clearly don’t understand automotive engineering.

If you could just place a 660hp Ferrari engine into a stock Toyota Camry and providing the drive train didn’t bust, the second you went into a turn at 90mph with the rest of the stock Toyotas tires, suspension system and brakes we would be peeling your crashed car off the guardrail.

A high performance car requires the entire vehicle to be built to the same standards braking system, suspension, etc.

So a great set of speakers on a crappy amplifier, with the rest of crappy system and cabling isn’t going to sound very good.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

I have the latest large floor standing Ushers with the DMD tweeters and they are so much better than their earlier BE tweeters. The BE tweeters were a large step up over their prior silk tweeters and the DMD are a large step up from the BE. The DMD can go up to 40+kHz and sounds more cleaner. 

This has become a fascinating thread.  I keep wanting to unfollow it but something has kept drawing me back and I think that the underlying argument is one of my biggest issues with the current state of audio.

We have a speaker (Paradigm) that has a bright character.  The dealer, correctly states, that with careful system matching and room treatment, the speaker can be spectacular.  I 100% agree with that.  

I also find that problematic and my issues are not technical.  My hunch is that not many consumers are walking into a store buying a speaker in that price range probably already have a system in place and the Paradigms will be replacing an existing speaker.  Unless that consumer has just the right equipment, they are going to be extremely disappointed when they get that speaker home unless they are revamping their whole system.  Reviewers do nothing to help this.  Have you ever read a bad review?  And, the brand fans advocate like hell for their brand in forums where you might get an honest opinion.  Badging is an amazing phenomenon.  

That being said, am sure audiotroy is highly consultative (you called me out for not being consultative in another thread which was fair) and would never sell these Paradigm speakers to a consumer with Bryston, Ayre, etc... gear and cheers to you for that.  But this industry is not well known for consultative salespeople who are tolerant of other opinions and work to truly make customers happy.  

The added issue is that speaker manufacturers and most (not all) retailers feed into this.  Does everyone remember the Pepsi Challenge from the 80's?  They would show coke drinkers take a side-by-side sip test of Pepsi and coke and 9 out of 10 times consumer would pick Pepsi as the product they like better.  This was fact and Pepsi did not mis-represent the results in anyway.  And ultimately is why Coke launched "New Coke".

The funny thing was, when consumers take a side-by-side sip of Pepsi vs. Coke, the slightly sweeter taste profile of Pepsi is far more appealing. When you test preferences over a long consumption session or with food, most consumers prefer the slightly less sweet taste of Coke as the sweeter flavor becomes less pleasant on the 5th, 8th, 10th sip.  

Speakers manufacturers design products to deliver wow moments in brief listening sessions.  When in practice, over an extended listening session, the speakers can be highly fatiguing unless carefully paired.  And many retailers or manufacturers at shows demo products via "the Pepsi Challenge" method.  They will have a very prescribed amp pairing and series of tracks that will show a product at its very best and deliver a brilliant soundstage and amazing details that will be jaw dropping. 

Bluntly, this method sells speakers.  But, this Pepsi challenge method of selling speakers leads to buyers remorse and ultimately forcing consumers to upgrade other elements of their system.  It takes advantage of the psychology that the consumer couldn't have made a poor choice in their speakers selection.  They have purchased this new brand that they identify with and therefore there has to be something wrong with the rest of there system since these sounded so good in the showroom.  Badging is such a big part of hi-fi that it is easy to exploit this.  Thus, the consumer upgrades to electronics that fit the speakers better.  Bigger register ring for the retailer.  

Irony is, the retailer wins, manufacturer wins and the consumer ultimately ends up with a system that makes them happy but at a significantly higher cost.  Is that a win for the consumer?  Is this sort of selling what is causing audio retailers to close at an astonishing pace?  Could it explain why hi-fi is a relatively obscure hobby in the US?  Is there a better way? 

Verdant that you for the kind words.

What we find so fascinating is how many uber technical guys here think that system matching is bunk and that amplifiers, cabling, and digital front ends don't dramatically or subtitly alter the sound.

We can tell you even with subtitle changes in an amp, digital and cables that those subtitle changes add up and up and up until bam different sounding system.

In the one gentleman who states that he heard different digital front ends and they didn't radically change the sound, we say he heard dacs that were very similarly voiced, like if you had three ESS Sabre dac based units, vs an AKM and Burr Brown, (however the analog stage of the dac also makes a big dif) if you compare a Mytek super clean clear defined to an IFI DSD a tube based dac which sounds lush your system is going to sound different. 

The other funny issue is the guys who don't subsribe to cabling making a big difference we did one demo where an expensive power cable made an $8k dac outperform a $20k one with a much cheaper power cord.

Audio is a lot like cooking, too sweet add salt, too salty add sweet.

Our analogy that a high pefromance car is the sum of all of its parts and not just the engine is an analogy that most people can clearly grasp. 

Simply taking a crashed Ferraris 660 hp engine and putting into your Toyota Camry will not equil the performance of the Ferrari. 

Audio is all about synergies and finding systems and components that work together to create magic. 

When we get in a new loudspeaker the testing process is not just listening to it and positioning it, sometimes that means changing out cabling, or dacs or trying different electronics to acchieve the sound quality we are looking for. 

Sometimes you get lucky and new speakers just work perfectly and other times that requires a rebalancing.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

@Audiotroy  I have no POV on swapping wires and the impact it can have on sound.  My experience is largely with lower end cables in direct swaps with mid-fi systems.  The exception is Kimber who I have partnered with.  I use their wire inside my speakers and in my demo rooms and can only say that my systems have never sounded better.  I have never done any formal testing with power cables.  Though a person I have a lot of respect for reported some results of power cable testing and said the results were not subtle but that gauge was a bigger driver than manufacturer.  Again, I have no formal POV.

Regarding speakers, am pairing is critical but some speakers are more sensitive to changes in amplifiers than others.  There are some speakers that will expose tiny changes in amplification and it is rarely a good thing.  It is usually when the speaker is so forward that it is brutally fatiguing.  

I have a hypothesis on why.  My feeling is, based on T/S parameters, there is an optimal crossover design for a speaker combination in a perfectly damped box. Reality deviates from that optimal scenario.  The further you deviate, the more sensitive the speakers will become to small changes in amplification.  That is a hypothesis that is unproven but supported by my empirical observations.  I am looking forward to testing the theory through the years.

What I sometimes find is that a speaker that might not be as "exciting" and dynamic in a short test might prove to be the better choice long term because it will be less fatiguing.  The goal is creating a speaker that is revealing and can deliver amazing detail without being forward.  My hypothesis is the answer is in the cabinet and it's overall ability to dampen rather than the drivers themselves.  

Additionally, there is an inherent "sonic character" to a speaker.  You can change amps and make a speaker better but if you just don't like the fundamentals of what the speaker does, a swap in amplification may mitigate the issue to some extent but will likely never completely resolve someones underlying distaste.

I will offer an example from my own line when showing at AXPONA.  Like my partner company Art Audio, we don't have a "house sound."  The goal is to make the ultimate expression using specific component parts and let the sound fall where it may.  

My Nightshade speaker is very soulful.  Wonderful detail but decidedly colored.  They make horns and female voices shine like the sun.  My Blackthorn's are precise and analytic.  Sound is intended to be very true.  Through the three days at AXPONA, I had dozens of consumers in and we would make hot swaps between the speakers in the middle of songs so they could hear the difference. 

No one thought the differences were subtle.  As many people would say something along the lines of; I get the Blackthorn.  It is "accurate" but it lacks the soul of the Nightshade and is a bit to "audiophile" for my taste.  Others would say, I get the Nightshade.  It is soulful and female voices sound great, but I love the Balckthorn because it delivers more of a pure, "Audiophile" sound.  

In my opinion, no amp swap, no cable swap, no change in source is going to change the underlying character of those two speakers.  They are very intentionally, radically different speakers.  If you love one, you probably won't love the other.  

That being said, at some point I really want to stop into your store.  I live in CT and my manufacturing is in PA.  I drive through NJ frequently.  Next time I make that trip I think I will reach out and schedule an appointment to see you guys.  

I fear that too often the word synergy in audio is used to describe overcoming the sonic problems of one component by matching them with another component whose sonic problems are the polar opposite. 

jsautter, I think you are on the right path. All anyone can ever do with problems is compound them. Not that you can't tune your system to sound a certain way with the attractive characteristics of certain components. In spite of my system being very solid state and digitized I use a tube phono amp because it fits my concept of what vinyl should sound like. 

Jasutter, then where does perfect sound lie? Is there such a thing as a perfect dish, a perfect car, a perfect wife, or husband?

Everything made by man is imperfect, even if you subscribe to the we make everything camp, with companies such as Burmester or T+A you will invariably come to the realization that somewhere along the lines you will find a better something out of that chain.

Take for example Naim, Naim makes great components, their speakers were decent never great, and their cabling is okay at best.

However, Naim’s electronics are excellent when used with many speakers sounds fantastic and we did a shootout of the Naim power cables vs the AQ and again no contest there and the stock Naim speaker cables are easlily out gunned by companies such as Wireworld.

We have the outstanding T+A electronics and their wonderful reference class CD/SACD player Dac, however, again, the Light Harmonic Davinci and the Aqua Forumula did sound even better. Also their cables weren’t good.

So the moral of the story is that nirvanah in any brand is very difficult and you really need to judge each component in a chain and see what each piece does and if you can get better results by moving into a different companies products in each catagory,

Sometimes company A’s amplifier and preamplifier is magical, sometimes mixing company A’s preamp tube with company B’s solid state amplifier will be magical.

Sometimes Company A’s amp and preamp and digital will be magical while other times adding an entirely different companies CD player or Dac will sound better.

If you belong to the mix and match approach s best camp, you will invariably be using the best of each product catagory that you have found which works well with the other parts, unless your favorite brand makes, loudspeakers, electronics, cabling, and sources, you will have to try something else.

The other thing is that when you have all the same everything like in a Burmester system you are subsribing to one companies vision of what sounds good which may or may not be a 100% what you find pleasing.

This is the point where mixing and matching different brands and different producdts might flavor the system to give you 100% off what you want. 

Think of it like cooking if a dish is too salty add sugar, conversely if a dish is too sweet add salt the addtion of the sugar or salt is not frowned upon, the finished dish is celebrated as tasting delicious.

Our approach is too judge each part in a chain individually.

Sometimes the best systems are all made out of different components sometimes it is the same compaies amp and preamp with other companies digital.

The nice thing about high end is that you can subsribe to any camp.

We have heard all Linn systems as well as all Burmester and many others over the years. No ones approach is right it is up to you to find what you enjoy.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

@rbstehno When people talk about diamond tweeters they are talking about condensed vaporized diamond. The DMD drivers in the Ushers are just ceramic tweeters, just like their BE line is nothing more than titanium tweeters.

@wildfoxinn what about the diamond tweeters in tidal speakers like Akira? From what I have heard from Doug White, its an actual layer of diamond not simply a coating.

Kosst - I did. That speaker is universally deemed bright and I found it and every other paradigm product I have ever heard to be bright. But, that has been there house sound since the beginning of time.

Off topic, but it is amazing how much warmer my old amplifiers sound vs. my newer gear. I have tube amps from three companies and all are more neutral / brighter than my old Carver SS gear or older Marantz, Pioneer and Kenwood receivers I have heard recently. Not sure if it is the age of equipment or if the definition of neutral has shifted through time. My Carver gear was just refurbished so I am less persuaded it is age.

Incidentally, my old Infinity Kappa 8.1s which had an electrostatic tweeter sounded great being driven by the Carver dear. Driven by a Rogue power amp, I think I would want to take an ice-pick to my ears they are so bright. Maybe speakers were generally brighter back then like the Infinity's.  

Maybe the definition of neutral neutral hasn't shifted but the average amplifier was warmer and the average speaker brighter.  Now we have more choice, better tweeters, etc... and now speakers and amps have both shifted to be more neutral.  

I have not done extensive listening of vintage gear and I only really  done serious, critical listening tests for past 10 years on gear so I am not claiming expertise in this space.  Just idle speculation.  

verdantaudio

... my old Infinity Kappa 8.1s which had an electrostatic tweeter sounded great ...

That didn't come from the factory with an electrostatic tweeter. Did you modify the speaker and add one to the system?

Sloppy on my part.  You are right.  The EMIT R is a ribbon super tweeter rather than an electrostat.  

verdantaudio

The EMIT R is a ribbon super tweeter rather than an electrostat. 

No, I'm pretty sure the Infinity EMITs weren't ribbons, either.

I have seen the original EMIT described as a single ended ribbon and the EMIT-R as a radial ribbon or a "leaf tweeter"  I have never heard of a "leaf tweeter" and can't say that I know what that is.   People who have old stock refer to the EMIT-R as a radial ribbon.  

If they aren't a ribbon, I would love to know what they actually are.  Can you please explain?  

never mind - found it

"EMIT's are not ribbon speakers. They are planar magnetics. Planar magnetic speakers have a voice coil printed on or attached/glued to a diaphragm. With true ribbons the entire radiating surface is a conductor.
The name EMIT means; electromagnetic induction tweeter."  

Thus EMIT-R would be Electromagnetic Induction Tweeter - Radial

Troy, all we see posted about the Digm's are excuses and blaming other components.  I have looked at your posts on them for years now.

I heard them at the first stop of their North American tour here in CT with a Krell system and disliked them a lot.  just too bright.  They do some other things well, but they are just a bright speaker. I then auditioned them in other set ups and herd the same common problems.

I then even took you up on your offer to hear them in NJ and it was a ton of excuses on you products not set up due to a photo shoot the night before and I think some of you electronics weren't 'burned in', but my buddy Jeff heard the same thing with them that I did and he also had heard them at in other systems.

Many like that bright fatiguing sound, but most don't.  It's just that simple and there is nothing that will change that.  

These threads are fun to read though as it's teh same excuses.  It's also not like I have anything against Paradigm as I've purchased an pair of speakers and a sub from them in the past (daughters college system).  They were perfect for the dorms and cheap with the discounts they offer to move gear.  it's a great company who also stands behind their speakers.  

Just too bright for most of us, but keep this going and I get a refill on popcorn.

kosst

I said they sounded opaque in my last audition, in a grayish tone sort of way, and with less sense of separation and richness vs the B&W speaker.

But I also noted I found the high frequencies of the Paradigm more fatiguing over time, the same with my previous audition last year.

Guys, plenty of reviewers always write positive reviews.  Some don't know how to listen or what they are listening tot.  I know one who has joked about him getting free or LOW cost gear and all he has to do is post great things about someone's gear.  

We all are physically different.  Our ears are all different.  It's interesting how many of us are hearing the exact same thing though.  There is a market for most everything.

verdantaudio,

You posted "[that the Persona] is universally deemed bright and I found it **and every other paradigm product I have ever heard to be bright.** But, that has been there [sic] house sound since the beginning of time."

I never heard the Personas and express no views.  That said, I seem to recall that John Atkinson may have reviewed one of the Persona models and I noted that the top end was shelved up. That could possible explain what you heard.  

In any case, I own the Paradigm Signature 8 (v3) BE tweeter speakers.  Based on old reviews of its predecessor (S8 v2), I recall that the FR was pretty flat, although its impedance and phase angle curves were pretty wild.  On the other hand, I also recall that Audiophile Review.com reviewed a bunch of speakers and to my surprise, the S8s ranked 7 among a host of dozens.  

See https://audiophilereview.com/audiophile/the-25-ultimate-audiophile-speakers-of-all-time.html

Well, I still own the S8s and I do not find them bright or harsh.  I can't speak for other speakers in the Paradigm line, but the S8s with the BE tweeters sound very nice.  It could be that my ARC Ref 150SE tube amp tames the harshness, …. who knows.  In any case, IMO, your post uses a pretty broad brush to slap a lot of paint on a company's entire speaker line.

Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I have been dying to listen to the Magico S5 Mk IIs, coupled with my amp.  Maybe one day I will get that chance.  But until that day comes, IMO, I do not think that I am listening to sonic swill.  

Respectfully submitted,

BIF

@bifwynne     I never called Paradigm sonic swill.  I have heard six or eight paradigm products since the mid 90s and they have had a consistent sound.  Paradigm has some of the most loyal and enthusiastic fans of any brand.  I feel like they have a consistent house sound and if you like it, you really like it.  If you don’t, you usually really don’t.  It’s not bad.  It’s my opinion based on my observations.  

I like Magico speakers and another poster in this thread I think said they are lifeless.  It’s an opinion and worth roughly what we all paid for.  Mine is worth just as much.  

Incidentally, in another thread, I told another poster that I hated using the word bright.  He suggested that “bright” was not a bad thing, just a descriptor.  I took his advice here.  Evidently, I was right.  

smodtactical168 posts07-15-2019 12:58am@ctsooner  those carbon tweeters on the Vandys look extremely appealing. You make it sound like they have the detail of a magico but the ease of a Wilson ?  For my ears they do, but we are all built differently and we all want to hear different things.  Often times folks don't listen to their own instincts and will listen to a dealer or someone doing a demo (in home etc..).  I try to listen to as much live music as I can with wife or friends.  That gives me a great idea on how things SHOULD sound when live.  Recordings are different.  That's why I try to listen to recordings that I know well on a few systems.  Again, it's what flavor do you like and can you trust your own ears and not have to trust others.  JMHO

I think this discussion comes down to implementation obviously. Also diamond has the advantage of greater stiffness but beryllium typically lighter mass. So perhaps there could be similar ratios.
The diamond tweeter in the Tonda D and Contriva g2 both sound beautiful. But the design of the speaker makes them sound very different. The former being smooth, relaxed and detailed... the latter giving you every single detail in a captivating soundscape.

My ushers had a dmd tweeter, my salon 2’s a Be and my 8k’s a be and the persona 7f that i’ve spent considerable time with also Be. I also home auditioned the kanta 3 with a be tweeter so I got some comparisons with the same components driving them in the same room. I really prefer the salon 2 and 8k tweeters on hi rez recordings while I found the dmd in the usher to be the slightest bit more forgiving and with the right components the persona would be right there, but I never got it home to compare. The focal didn’t produce any bass in my room so it sounded top heavy. I’m ready for some warmer weather and this quarantine to be lifted so i can gtfooh.