beryllium vs diamond

This does nothing to settle anything on the issue of course, but as a matter of pure anecdote:

I recently auditioned the Paradigm F3 with it's beryllium drivers against the B&W 803D3 (diamond tweeter) in the same room on the same equipment.

For me the high end frequencies of the B&W were much nicer, a more beautiful sense of harmonic richness, distinction and clarity to cymbals and other high frequency elements.   The Paradigm sounded somewhat opaque in comparison.

I was surprised as I've never been a big fan of the B&W speakers.

I did a long audition of the Persona’s in which I was able to achieve a good set up of the speakers a year ago.
I thought they sounded pretty good, but they wore me out.

This second audition, I again didn’t just allow for how the dealer set them up. I listened to them in various configurations, from the classic equilateral triangle, to moving them around to other positions (I prefer a wider spread so we did that, we got them off the walls, I got a good seating position much like I use at home with many different speakers).
They just didn’t do anything for me. Just sounded sort of grayish in timbre, and with a top end that wore on me over time. (And I’ve heard many speakers with extended top ends that don’t wear on me like that).

If I’d only heard the Performas by themselves this recent time it’s possible I might not be so hard on them, but compared to the B&Ws, which were showing me more spatial and timbral information of all the instruments and voices in the mix...remember using exactly the same gear driving them ( the latest Bryston amps)...the Performas were a complete disappointment.


I know...I know...it was the "amplifier" or "cables"......

First audition - can't remember.  Second audition, as I already said: Bryston amplification.


I'm not going to talk cabling with you as we don't agree on that stuff.They were thick cables...hope that helps ;-)


Agreed that system matching and set up can make a difference. But I have been auditioning speakers for many years and I have a good idea of how to get a picture of a speaker's character.  Though I favor my tube amps, I always prefer to hear a speaker during audition powered by SS amps if possible as a more neutral starting point (never know how off-neutral a particular tube amp will be, where the variation among SS amps is much smaller).


Every speaker I've ever found to sound excellent sounded that way on different gear - yes, some variation among gear but the essential character of a speaker remains.  If a speaker "needs" warmer gear, special attention to cables, warmer source and all that, then it needs fixing from external gear.  That's already a warning sign IMO.


Anyway,  I heard what I heard in two auditions (and I've actually heard the Performas in another location too), and no longer have interest in those speakers.


I'm sure you like them, so do some other people,  and you have speakers to sell, but I'm not buyin' :)

Troy,

Yeah, yeah...I know your views on these things.

You aren’t talking to some newbie who just walked in to your store who needs your education and salesman's wisdom. I’ve been in the hobby for much of my life, heard a gazillion systems, done some reviewing myself, listened to plenty of systems at reviewers places as they went through equipment, as well as audiophile pals, (I still have pals who review so I’m constantly listening to all the gear as we change things) and have gone through tons of experimenting and equipment of my own. So I have my own experience to go on, thank you very much.

From having owned and used many different amps, including SS, I know the general characteristics of my CJ tube amps vs most SS amps, and I know in which way the character of a speaker will be nudged when it goes from an SS amp to my own amps. I’ve learned to get quite a good read of speakers on unfamiliar amps, especially SS amps...and I often hear a speaker on a VARIETY of amps (sometimes tube and SS), and the essential character I can recognize is CONSISTENT. (Unless we are talking about very inaccurate amps or horribly matched amps that can’t drive a speaker).

I’ve lost count of the number of times I have identified why I don’t care for a speaker, while the dealer said "Oh, that’s because they are being powered by THIS amp, or DAC, or cable, let me switch to this one..." only to hear the same essential character remain.

I know you think differently, but you are barking up the wrong tree trying to tell me all the things I’ve heard a billion times from dealers and other audiophiles.


Again...it’s not that I don’t think amps can’t make a difference. I own CJ tube amps after all! Rather, especially with SS amps, they tend not to make a sonic difference of a magnitude that completely changes my opinion of a speaker. It’s certainly possible I have not heard the Persona’s at their best and would alter my opinion slightly of them.But my experience hearing speakers in many different systems shows my I’m VERY unlikely to like a speaker where I did not like it elsewhere.In fact that has not happened once, ever, whereas speakers I have liked in unfamiliar systems I continue to like in other situations, including if I bring them home.


So I have from you the same salesman’s pitch I’ve heard many times, vs my own long time experience


Not much further we can go on this.

And I’ve listed my gear numerous times on the forum. Don’t care to again in this thread. (I’ve told you before I use mostly Belden cabling.Though sometimes I have audioquest, other brands, even Nordost in my system, when friends give or lend me cast-offs and I happen to need a cable. Sorry...no major revelations from cabling).

Again, audiotroy, you are writing as if I would never have experienced swapping between CD players, servers, DACs etc.

Aside from having done plenty of my own CDP/DAC swapping tests (including blind testing!), I’ve experienced countless different DACs in other set ups. As I’ve said, the voice of speakers has remained constant as I’ve heard them in various systems, which inevitably means with different DACs (and amps etc).

I’m familiar with everything you could say on this subject, and as it happens I’ve come to my own opinions.


It’s nice to see your enthusiasm for the hobby, even though we differ on some things.

Again, you are repeating the same stuff I’ve already said I disagree with.Repeating it again doesn’t help.

If you are drastically changing the sound of speakers via a DAC, you are using poorly designed DACs. (A lot of those going around in high-end, yet charging more for them).


If you need to drastically change the sound in order for a speaker to sing, then it says something negative about the speaker.

I know you are in in the "everything makes a difference" camp, which is one reason why I would not rely on you for audio advice (sorry to be blunt).




And I never said the Personas were "too clear" for me. In fact as I said, they sounded less clear than the B&Ws. Mostly, I just don’t care for the overall timbral quality of that speaker. And as you know I’m hardly the first to find the high frequencies of the Persona fatiguing. I’ve seen many mentions. And it’s not surprising given you can see the "smiley face" top end rise in measurements made of the speaker.

I’m not saying they are bad speakers at all. They are quite accomplished speakers and have very competitive technology for their price.


Look we all know you tout the Persona’s are the best thing since sliced bread and you’ll defend them to the death. Any of us audiophiles can get annoying about a product we are infatuated with, but hearing it over and over from a salesman with a vested interest in selling them can be even more tiresome.

kosst

I said they sounded opaque in my last audition, in a grayish tone sort of way, and with less sense of separation and richness vs the B&W speaker.

But I also noted I found the high frequencies of the Paradigm more fatiguing over time, the same with my previous audition last year.