beryllium vs diamond
Koost, I remember reading about that amplifier and the review wasn't good, basically Stereophile said the amplifier was super lean, and clean, fast and articulate, the reviewer tried lots of things changing cables, adding a tube preamp to enrich the sound of this amplifier but his conclusions weren't exactly a rave, and if the amplifier was a clean and lean sounding amplifier than the sound with the Personas should have been awful. The Persona's are a very low coloration loudspeaker that does tend to emphasis the top end, the speakers are very exciting to listen to, therefore you need to pair the speakers with a wamer combination of components to add a bit of tone color back in. Hence we use Krell Class A designs, or T+A voiced to emulate tubes with the Personas and get fabulous results. Here is the summation on the SAE amp: Conclusions
Others will find it on the lean, analytical, perhaps over-speedy side, with less than generously expressed harmonics. Making the 2HP-D sing required carefully matched components, Though the 2HP-D's midrange and overall sustain were a bit stingy, again, the right partnering gear (in my case, ARC's Reference 6 preamp and Audio Tekne's TEA-8695 phono preamp) will give some listeners everything they might want. However, the SAE 2HP-D is clearly not an amp for those who prefer a soft, warm sound. Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/sae-2hp-d-power-amplifier-page-2#Bz0uXfWdRpxvgzm4.99 The other thing is it seems you are baseing your experience on this one demo, rather than a composite of hearing the speakers at different locations and on different gear. We have heard a lot of Magico at shows and at dealers and most of the models sound the same, we heard the A3 at the New York audio show with AVM and Nordost and the sound was very different from past Magicos which tend to sound a bit smooth but not totally engaging, here the A3 were bright, and overly punchy a very different sound. So do we now base our opinions on the A3 from just the show demo or do we keep on attempting to hear them under different circumstances before passing judgement on how they sound. Also Kost it comes down to what you find musical? If you are a Vandersteen Harbeth kind of guy, who loves soft dome tweeters or a recessed treble it is unlikely you will find the Personas to your tastes. It tooks us a while of tunning before we came up with magic for the Personas they are not a drop and plop loudspeaker they are very finiky beasts but when you get them right you get a sound which is in the league of $60k-120k loudspeakers for $25-35k a pair. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers |
Okay Profi what gear was being used with them? Speaker positioning won't compensate for the equipment. This isn't hard it is the equipment you use them with. Why do some people manage to get the speakers to sound good to great? It is system matching, Brighter speakers need warmer gear, netural cabling and a wamer source. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Kosst it has nothing to do with load, it has to do with creating a system where the parts are balanced and work together. The Persona series has excellent dynamic capabilities. Are they as dynamic as a horn no they are not but with a suitable amp they have plenty of drive. We have heard 70 watt tube amplifiers with great drive, as well as 300 watt stereo amplifiers. So it sounds like the system you heard the Personas in wasn't' balanced to work in that room. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor |
Prof boy do we have some disagreements with you and there is a reason why you are coming up with what you are comming up with. First: If you like tube amplifiers your audition on a speaker should be on a tube amplifier, demoing on a solid state amplifier is going to give you a totally diffeent feel. Second: Your comment that solid state amplifers tend to sound similar is one of the most ludicrious statements ever. When we were setting up our KEF Blades we had at the time four different solid state amplifiers that we could demo with them, a set of Parasound JC 1, a set of Electrcompaniet AW 400, a set of Chord SPM 650 Monoblocks, and a set of Chord SPM 1400. So in order of price $10k Parasound, $12k Electro, $14k Chord, $32k Chord Reference amplifiers. Just changing from one set of amplifiers to another and then to another you could hear the speakers open up dramatically. The Parasounds made the speakers sound slow, and closed in. The Electros were faster and cleaner and the speakers presentation livened up, the Chord monoblocks sounded even better with greater dynamics, cleaner overall the speakers sounded faster, and the Chord Reference all of a sudden the Blades sounded like live music with much greater dynamic range, far tighter bass, more detail a huge floating image. So if you heard the first set of amplifiers your experience with the Blades would have been nice speaker but eh I don’t see the fuss, vs the Chord Reference amplifiers where your jaw would be on the floor. If you listen to a Naim they sound distinctly different than most solid state, with a more rhythmic quality and a warm slightly recessed top end. The Personas on Naim sound magical as the speakers are a bit forward and the Naim is punchy and a bit recessed. Compare that sound with say an Ayre, or a Bryston, which are cleaner amplifers with. less coloration than the Naim but a far more neutral less involving sound do you think that combination will sound good or bad? Amplifiers fall into brighter faster cleaner, and warmer, richer sounding presentations. The new Krell XD amplifiers for example have a distinctly creamy presentation. So Profi we differ cables make a very audible difference and must be matched with the electronics and sources so must the electronics. A great set of speakers with the wrong electronics will not equil a great sounding system this usually leads to boy I don’t know what that reviewer liked in those speakers kind of comment. Another point is there is no good sounding speaker that sounds good all the time, your good sounding speaker if that is the case will suffer appropriatly on the wrong electronics or the system has no resolution. If a speaker has no resolution it will sound "good" which in reality is mediocre all the time. A good recording will sound good on a good system and a bad recording will sound poor on a good system. If your system sounds good all the time on all recordings no matter what you don’t have an accurate system. Prof for the record can you list your entire system including cables? Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Prof there will always be a house sound with a product, however, you can change some of the characteristics of that product depending on cables, electronics and sources. If the dealer changed the dac and the sound didn't change that means that the dac swapped isn't a different sounding dac then the original dac or that something in the system was masking these differences. We can totally change the sound of a system just by changing a dac. Our dacs are tube based or solid state based on the product we are demoing and they really do sound different Dave and TroyAudio Doctor |
Prof, not saying about in your system. Your quote: while the dealer said "Oh, that’s because they are being powered by THIS amp, or DAC, or cable, let me switch to this one..." only to hear the same essential character remain. If a dealer can't change the sound of his loudspeakers by chainging electronics or digital that doesn't speak well for the dealer. We can dramatically change the sound of a speaker by just changing a dac, if you have a brighter cleaner speaker, use a tube or warm based dac, the Light Hamonic Davinci running DSD, the T+A digital, the Aqua Hifi. You want to bring out more detail in a wamer sounding speaker go to Mytek or the T+A Dac 8, You want wam and punchy use Naim. This dealer that you heard the Personas might not have what we would call the right equipment, Bryston amplifiers are too clean to be a good match same with Ayre and a few others, you need a wamer tubier sounding solid state brand, T+A or Naim are really magical with the Personas. The new Krell gear also sounds great, the Anthem separates are good, the integrated is not good enough, the Micromega M100/M150 are great. This is where we differ Prof, we tune a system by chainging, cables, power conditioners, digital etc, till the system sounds really good. The Personas are super revealing but if you tune them right the speakers perform against extremely expensive speakers. In our demo room we had the Polymer Audio Research a $68k speaker with Acution Diamond Midrange and Tweeter in a 300 lb all metal enclosure, We also had demoed a pair of Kharma Exsquite Classiques at $120k set of speakers all on the T+A electronics, top of the line digital cabling ect. In both examples these uber speakers were not sounding better just different we sold off the Polymers which were very impressive but not twice as good, and sent back the Kharmas as thanks but not worth $120k. Prof you should take a road trip to hear what a set of well setup Persona can actually sound like. https://www.facebook.com/audiodoctor1/photos/rpp.122499304489958/2414413985298467/?type=3&theate... We are not saying you will magically fall in love with them, they still might be too clear for you, but we think you would come away suitablly impressed that they are really quite extraordinary loudspeakers and are a bargain for the price. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor |
Kost you really dont understand any of this do you7 Almost any competant amplifier can drive any loudspeaker that doesnt mean that the resulting match would sound good. A 660 hp Ferrari engine can push any car right? What if we dropped this engine in a Toyota Camry do you think this abomination would perform like a Ferrari? Amplifiers cables sources all sound dlfferent just because you heard them at a dealer or that the dealer sells expensive stuff doest mean that dealer can create great sound. Many dealers will give up if a product doesnt sound good to them instantly or is not selling for them, it takes time to figure out a product your dealer may not be willing to or doesnt have the desire to find matching gear. Tell you a story we were invited to hear a pair of 9H when they were first being shown to dealers. Thc shop tbat had the speakers was a one room, mid fi shop their best electronics a 3k Musical Fidelity amp inexpensive cables and a Blu Sound Node. Know what we didnt like the sound elthe but we dld find that the speakers were doing some things well. When we got our samples and found the right combination of electronics and matching components did we make maglc. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor |
Rbach, we all have different opinions, what is interesting is that you are more interested in harassing us, then adding anything to a discussion. We are also willing to bet we test a lot more equipment than you do. Sorry for having an opinion, if you read the initial posts we said that that gentlemans system would probably sound good if he was using a tube preamp and a warm dac guess what he was. The defination of a class act is not having a releavant opinion and just harassing people who do. |
Kost, it is not the point, if you can’t understand that a Ferrari engine transplanted into a family sedan won’t make a family sedan into a race car. A race car is a race car, the same way that a Ferrari makes a poor cross country vehicle for conveying a family. A high performance loudspeaker is not going to sound good on really cheapie electronics, as the really cheapie electronics are adding distortions to the speakers as well as not really being able to control the loudseakers. The SAE amplifier that you mentioned if it is the new SAE amplifier was lambasted by Stereophile for sounding too bright. We are not making any false arguement please go to a good shop or one that you might have a friend in, and ask them to hook up your amplifier with your cables and sources and listen to the speakers before and after and you will see that electronics absolutely make or break a system. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Sorry Sciencop wonder how many people here own or have owned speakers with diamond or beryilium drivers? We have had the Polymer Audio Research MKXS in the past. https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2014/05/10/axpona-2014-devastating-polymer-audio-and-fm-acoustics/amp... We also have the Paradigm Personas on display currently. So yeah we have actual experience. |
Kost your Lotus point completely misses the point, a performance based product will only sound as good as what you use with it and how it is setup. It is that simple. Please answer the question: A 660 hp Ferrari engine can push any car right? What if we dropped this engine in a Toyota Camry do you think this abomination would perform like a Ferrari? Would the Ferrari engined Toyota Camry handle like, brake like, have the drive feel of the Ferrari? The answer is of course No, a Ferrari performs like a Ferrari because the engine, drive train, brakes, and handling components are matched together working together in unison. Take any part away and substitute any lesser part and watch the performance fall apart. Lets make an audio analogy, $150,000.00 pair of speakers being driven by a $300 Yamaha receiver on zip cord,playing over Blu Tooth, do you think the $150,000.00 pair of speakers is going to sound good or horrific? We suppose you think that electronics don't impact the sound of a system, and cables are bunk and the only thing that matters is the speaker correct? Sure only the speakers matter lets listen to the above listed $150,000.00 speakers on the Receiver playing Blu tooth, and lets talk. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Dear Kost, How do you explain why an amplifier sounds bright, Stereophile couldn’t and or why an amplifier sounds dull? If you look at published frequency response graphs of almost any modern amplifier they are flat from 20hz-20khz. And yes Kost, unlike you we have had these loudspeakers in our store, we lived with them and found out what their intrinsic characteristics were and or are. Kost you don’t need an engineering degree or an electrical degree to understand what sounds good and what doesn’t. We talked about cars before, if a Ferrari is driving at 60 and a Pinto is driving at 60 the spec is the same, does that mean the cars drive the same? On the same token if I take a Ferrari put 82 octane gass and deflat the tires at different pressures accross the board does it drive like the manufacturer intended? According to spec or not to spec? We live in a world where certain things must be experienced and their is not enough measurement criteria to determine why something sounds good. You are looking for empiracal data when there is none, that can prove that one amplifier sounds right on a particular set of speakers but people with ears know it when they hear it. Last point Kost why do so many people like records over digital, digital has no noise much greater dynamic range, doesn’t degrade, has perfect frequency response. Or tubes? A tube amplifier has poor damping, is noisy, wears out, has much greater noise floor, yet why do so many people prefer the sound of at tube amplifier? Good luck Kost. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor |
Kost the Persona series aren’t particularlly difficult to drive. In the case of the 9H you are powering only a midrange and tweeter, so they can’t be a difficult load at all. Your understanding of audio is that is comes down to impedance guess what that is not the case. We have done plently of demos where substituting one powerful solid state amplifier with another equilly powerful solid state amplifier on the same load, same everything else, and the sound was radically different. Why don’t you answer our question, do you believe that two competantly designed amplifiers sound different? Do you think that a Pass Labs, sounds the same a Solution amplifier, given the exact same load? Why do you think that would be? The two amplifiers use different parts, different feedback, different classes of operation, so why would they sound the same and each one would not have a distintly different sound? We don’t look at the electrical characteristics other than the load and the loudspeakers efficiency. We have tested many amplifiers as noted above and gotten very different effects. When we were looking for amplifiers for the Polymers and the Personas we tested CJ ART, Chord, Electrcompaniet, Manley, Electrcompaniet, Devialet, Thrax and T+A guess what each amplifier sounded different. You need to start to learn what audio is all about, your rally car analogy was dumb, and if you can’t understand our analogy of dropping just a Ferrari engine into a stock Toyota Camry and expecting that combination to drive like a stock Ferrari you clearly don’t understand automotive engineering. If you could just place a 660hp Ferrari engine into a stock Toyota Camry and providing the drive train didn’t bust, the second you went into a turn at 90mph with the rest of the stock Toyotas tires, suspension system and brakes we would be peeling your crashed car off the guardrail. A high performance car requires the entire vehicle to be built to the same standards braking system, suspension, etc. So a great set of speakers on a crappy amplifier, with the rest of crappy system and cabling isn’t going to sound very good. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Verdant that you for the kind words. What we find so fascinating is how many uber technical guys here think that system matching is bunk and that amplifiers, cabling, and digital front ends don't dramatically or subtitly alter the sound. We can tell you even with subtitle changes in an amp, digital and cables that those subtitle changes add up and up and up until bam different sounding system. In the one gentleman who states that he heard different digital front ends and they didn't radically change the sound, we say he heard dacs that were very similarly voiced, like if you had three ESS Sabre dac based units, vs an AKM and Burr Brown, (however the analog stage of the dac also makes a big dif) if you compare a Mytek super clean clear defined to an IFI DSD a tube based dac which sounds lush your system is going to sound different. The other funny issue is the guys who don't subsribe to cabling making a big difference we did one demo where an expensive power cable made an $8k dac outperform a $20k one with a much cheaper power cord. Audio is a lot like cooking, too sweet add salt, too salty add sweet. Our analogy that a high pefromance car is the sum of all of its parts and not just the engine is an analogy that most people can clearly grasp. Simply taking a crashed Ferraris 660 hp engine and putting into your Toyota Camry will not equil the performance of the Ferrari. Audio is all about synergies and finding systems and components that work together to create magic. When we get in a new loudspeaker the testing process is not just listening to it and positioning it, sometimes that means changing out cabling, or dacs or trying different electronics to acchieve the sound quality we are looking for. Sometimes you get lucky and new speakers just work perfectly and other times that requires a rebalancing. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Jasutter, then where does perfect sound lie? Is there such a thing as a perfect dish, a perfect car, a perfect wife, or husband? Everything made by man is imperfect, even if you subscribe to the we make everything camp, with companies such as Burmester or T+A you will invariably come to the realization that somewhere along the lines you will find a better something out of that chain. Take for example Naim, Naim makes great components, their speakers were decent never great, and their cabling is okay at best. However, Naim’s electronics are excellent when used with many speakers sounds fantastic and we did a shootout of the Naim power cables vs the AQ and again no contest there and the stock Naim speaker cables are easlily out gunned by companies such as Wireworld. We have the outstanding T+A electronics and their wonderful reference class CD/SACD player Dac, however, again, the Light Harmonic Davinci and the Aqua Forumula did sound even better. Also their cables weren’t good. So the moral of the story is that nirvanah in any brand is very difficult and you really need to judge each component in a chain and see what each piece does and if you can get better results by moving into a different companies products in each catagory, Sometimes company A’s amplifier and preamplifier is magical, sometimes mixing company A’s preamp tube with company B’s solid state amplifier will be magical. Sometimes Company A’s amp and preamp and digital will be magical while other times adding an entirely different companies CD player or Dac will sound better. If you belong to the mix and match approach s best camp, you will invariably be using the best of each product catagory that you have found which works well with the other parts, unless your favorite brand makes, loudspeakers, electronics, cabling, and sources, you will have to try something else. The other thing is that when you have all the same everything like in a Burmester system you are subsribing to one companies vision of what sounds good which may or may not be a 100% what you find pleasing. This is the point where mixing and matching different brands and different producdts might flavor the system to give you 100% off what you want. Think of it like cooking if a dish is too salty add sugar, conversely if a dish is too sweet add salt the addtion of the sugar or salt is not frowned upon, the finished dish is celebrated as tasting delicious. Our approach is too judge each part in a chain individually. Sometimes the best systems are all made out of different components sometimes it is the same compaies amp and preamp with other companies digital. The nice thing about high end is that you can subsribe to any camp. We have heard all Linn systems as well as all Burmester and many others over the years. No ones approach is right it is up to you to find what you enjoy. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
