Well I'm taking my first step into separate components with a Marantz SC-11s1 and SM-11s1. Would like to know about the +/-'s of using RCA vs balanced interconnects between the two. All my input sources are single ended.
I understand the Marantz components balanced connections have pin 2 wired cold and pin 3 wired hot. Does this mean I need to reverse the cables going to my speakers (if I decide to use balanced connections between amp/preamp).
I also understand the RCA connections conserve absolute polarity. But is there a performance "hit" taken by using singled ended connections between amp/preamp?
Ricevs 8-1-2019 All balanced cables sound different from each other and that includes on Atmasphere gear.
Ric, I don’t doubt your experience. But see Ralph’s post dated 3-22-2013 near the beginning of the following thread for what I consider to be compelling proof of his contention regarding immunity to differences between balanced cables, **if** the components being connected meet the criteria he states in that post (which are not met by most high end components, as he indicates). Also see one of my follow-up questions later in that thread, and Ralph’s response, which it seems to me might account for your findings. The question I am referring to is in the last paragraph of my first post dated 3-27-2013, beginning with "Also, to eliminate interconnect cable differences is it necessary ..."
If both the source and load are fully balanced......then balanced sounds noticeably better. Not just lower noise but more transparent/real and more information. I can hear the difference from the kitchen. This was tested with the same source and same type of cables. So, yes, balanced in inherently better. This is why Audio Research and many other run balanced. It is not about profession whatever......it just plain sounds better. Do what you choose. This is my experience, listening to both. By the way, you don't need transformers to run balanced. Almost all DACs have balanced outputs and you simply run each phase right out. If the preamp/amps are fully balanced.....you will get better sound than single ended. Frank Van Alstine loves his new balanced mono blocks.....the best he has ever done. Also, running balanced does not take the cable out of the equation. All balanced cables sound different from each other and that includes on Atmasphere gear.
As has been pointed out, balanced is not inherently better sounding. A balanced signal is simply two unbalanced signals, one 180 degrees out of phase (mirror image). The you subtract one from the other - common noise cancels. That's it. It is more immune to both ground noise and pickup of noise over long distances in noisy environments - like factories or concert stages. Worse, the simple, common way to create balanced I/O is to add an opamp or other circuitry to create it - and every circuit, no matter how good, adds a little distortion and noise. There are a bunch of reasons to use balanced - for example to run stereo amps as monoblocks - and yea, i advertised this as a feature on my amps/preamps 25 years ago - and it was true! And sounded great! -- but it used inherently balanced circuitry (not one extra part, not one), and quadrupled the power. That said, 99% of the time i personally would run the simplest system possible. RCAs. Plus, you save money on cables - generally lots. Spend that on something truly useful. As to RCAs preserving absolute polarity - strange comment. So do balanced connections. Actually, absolute polarity is really a function of whether the circuitry inverts or not. If it does, well, swap the speaker leads :-) Problem solved for $0.00 G
Having been involved with every facet of Audio for over 35 years balanced if True balanced would be a bit quieter. that being said your Amplifier and preamp need to have transformers for the input,outputs to be what is considered a True balanced . Most amplifiers have whst I call quasi balanced a XLR but when you take the top off it is wired on the same grid wiring with the RCA. I is a added expense to do properly . check your components before spending any added costs. Jensen make some very good transformers for this application, there are several good transformers out there I am not certain if Lundahl make any this small .
In his Positive Feedback review of the EAR-Yoshino 868L line stage pre, the reviewer made the statement that, though the 868 provides XLR jacks for balanced operation, the pre-amp circuitry itself is single-ended. Designer Tim deParavicini in his manufacturer reply corrected the reviewer, stating that no, the 868 is a true balanced design. It is a commonly-held understanding by audiophiles and semi-pro hi-fi reviewers that a true balanced amp by definition has doubled parts. As atmasphere just said, that is a misconception and misunderstanding of what balanced is. A pre-amp can have single-ended circuits yet be true balanced in operation.
The real concern in any piece of gear is how the balanced inputs/outputs are implemented. In the EAR 868, Paravicini accomplished that goal via transformers. In his Music Reference RM-200, Roger Modjeski does so with a resistor network. Companies with lower standards typically create balanced inputs/outputs with the dreaded opamp, and with the expected sonic compromise. A higher retail price does not necessarily buy one balanced ins and outs NOT created with opamps. If possible, inspect the schematic of any piece of balanced gear you are considering buying, to see how it’s balanced connections are created, and if they conform to AES48.
Ralph, I agree with your comments 200% (or I would if >100% were theoretically possible), except that like Millercarbon my understanding has been that XLR connectors make the ground connection prior to the making the signal connections, upon insertion, and break the ground connection after breaking the signal connections, upon removal.
And upon close examination of some XLR cables I have, which are terminated with Neutrik connectors, it does appear that on the female end the metal contact within pin 1 extends slightly closer to the front surface of the connector than the contacts within the signal pins. And likewise for female (input) connectors I looked at on the rear panel of a component. And although the pins on the male end all appear to be the same length as far as I can tell, it seems to me that the make & break sequences I described would occur regardless of which end of the cable is inserted or removed, as a result of the configuration of the female connectors.
Balanced are designed for professional use. That is why they are
designed with the ground making contact first- professional use sees a
lot of stuff being connected/disconnected while powered up. Making the
ground connection first avoids the loud annoying buzz you get with RCA.
Which with home use is a non-issue, you simply power off or even just
change inputs to avoid the noise. Now if you have 20 roadies running
around messing with the 768 connections in your system then balanced
makes a lot of sense.
Balanced is locking because pro gear tends
to get moved around a lot. So get balanced if you like to throw your
system in a truck and set up at friends a lot. If your system stays in
the room for years at a time then XLR is a total waste of money.
True
balanced utilizes two duplicate sets of circuitry, the outputs of which
are then compared in order to reject noise. That's how it works. One of
the bedrock fundamental truths of high end audio is simpler is better.
Another is better parts cost more and the fewer the parts the more you
can spend on each part. So this one is not only wasted but by
unnecessary duplication its actually counter productive. Except for
professional use where runs long enough to go from your pre-amp out the
door around the house and back into the room to your amp are the norm.
If that's your system go balanced. Totally. Otherwise, another feature
wasted on home use.
What else? Oh yeah. Like the man said half
the time balanced doesn't really even mean balanced. It just means you
can connect your XLR here. Decoy! Fell for it! Don't be that guy.
A good deal of this is false. First- the ground. The ground connection is not made first (ground is pin 1 of the XLR). The reason you can hot plug an XLR connection is because both signal pins connect at the same time (along with the ground). The input is far less able to pick up noise during the connection- no buzz, most of the time not even a pop.
Balanced operation has several nice benefits for home operation. Audiophiles often pay a lot for cables; if the balanced line system is set up properly (IOW the equipment used supports the Balanced Line standard, a.k.a. AES48) the sound of the interconnect won't be a thing. No having to audition cables- it will just work. So cables don't have to be expensive and you can run them longer distances (this is helpful if you have monoblock amps, you can place them by the speakers and keep your speaker cables short, which improves definition).
True balanced circuits do not have duplicate circuitry. So there aren't twice as many parts and so on. We use differential amplifiers in our circuits and because differential amps tend to be lower noise we don't need as much gain stages to get the job done. As a result with our gear there are only 4 stages of gain from the LOMC phono input to the loudspeakers. That is **a simpler signal path** than most single-ended circuits! Balanced operation can (and usually is) done with transformers, in which case the preamp and amps can be single-ended and it can still work quite well.
Other than immunity to interconnect cable artifacts, the other reason for balanced lines is elimination of ground loop noise. That is a benefit whether the cable is 60 feet or only 6 inches.
Now if the amp has balanced inputs processed by circuitry that hands off the signal to the actual single-ended input of the amp (I've seen this in a few consumer grade amps with balanced inputs) then it may well be that the system will sound better with the single ended inputs, simply because there is a simpler signal path. But if the system is internally balanced there won't be any looking back, it will simply sound better.
First you must determine if your equipment is truly differentially balanced or it just has balanced connectors. I now this topic has been covered umpteen times previously on these forums; try reading the white papers of Nelson Pass (Pass Labs) , Victor Khomenko (BAT) Ralph Karsten ( Atmasphere) or Charlie Hansen (Ayre) to get an explanation from renown experts not just the ones who frequent these forums.
Balanced are designed for professional use. That is why they are designed with the ground making contact first- professional use sees a lot of stuff being connected/disconnected while powered up. Making the ground connection first avoids the loud annoying buzz you get with RCA. Which with home use is a non-issue, you simply power off or even just change inputs to avoid the noise. Now if you have 20 roadies running around messing with the 768 connections in your system then balanced makes a lot of sense.
Balanced is locking because pro gear tends to get moved around a lot. So get balanced if you like to throw your system in a truck and set up at friends a lot. If your system stays in the room for years at a time then XLR is a total waste of money.
True balanced utilizes two duplicate sets of circuitry, the outputs of which are then compared in order to reject noise. That's how it works. One of the bedrock fundamental truths of high end audio is simpler is better. Another is better parts cost more and the fewer the parts the more you can spend on each part. So this one is not only wasted but by unnecessary duplication its actually counter productive. Except for professional use where runs long enough to go from your pre-amp out the door around the house and back into the room to your amp are the norm. If that's your system go balanced. Totally. Otherwise, another feature wasted on home use.
What else? Oh yeah. Like the man said half the time balanced doesn't really even mean balanced. It just means you can connect your XLR here. Decoy! Fell for it! Don't be that guy.
How many even knew all the above? So on top of everything else balanced turns you into one of these gear heads talking the talk instead of walking the walk.
None of this is new. I went through figuring this all out 30 years ago, at least. Not one damn thing has changed in all that time.
The fact that the Marantz units and your sources are not fully balanced means you will likely experience minimal gains vs. single ended connections. in fact, there are occasion where you will find the single ended connections may sound better. I can't speak about those explicit units, bit I have an amp where the single ended connections definitely are better than the balanced.
I've read plenty of reviews and checked the Marantz site and cannot confirm either unit is fully balanced or just has the balanced connections so no help there.
I agree with Millercarbon that listening is the proof. Thanks for your input gentlemen.
Balanced gives you better electrical noise rejection (if you need it), but costs more and requires additional circuitry to make it (less is more). I don't have a choice since my current and previous amps have only XLR inputs, but I still appreciate locking feature. In addition to locking XLR has only female end exposed - in case something gets disconnected. It is additional protection from touching "live" wire.
one other thing to consider is the Marantz actually true balanced or just single ended looking as balanced. True balanced is a lot harder to do and can give benefits in cable cost and ability to run longer runs. true balanced negates many of the issues with cables and EMI as the balanced signal cancel out the EMI more then single ended can. In theory you don't need to spend huge money on balanced cables as they require less shielding.
I'm sure someone here with more background in balanced systems can inject more information and details as to the benefits losses.
Actually the performance "hit" is when you pay more for balanced and get less for your money than RCA. Balanced is one of those things that makes a lot of sense for professional use running long distances and lots of connections giving the locking feature value. None of which applies to home use.
Absolute polarity is another non-issue. And even if it does make a difference the only way to know for sure is to try both ways and listen. Don't be surprised if you hear a difference. Also don't be surprised if you then discover it sounds better one way on some recordings, and the other way on others, and with the total barely noticeable if at all difference being in no way worth the hassle of switching. Which is why its a non-issue.
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