Koegz,
Smart move working on the configuration before changing any pieces. Your system as is should sound fabulous if set up properly, IMO.
There are services and info on the web available I believe that might help you optimize your setup/roomconfiguration. My understanding is Sumiko offers such a service and there are others. Not sure if it is available to all or not. |
considering just adding duel subs and change the configuration to a more traditional rectanguler set up. then see how it sounds. not sure about subs though i use only to channel for mostly music. do not watch many movies and no longer care about big explosions. any feeling on 2 channel music and subs? |
Two completely different speaakers. If you are used to your sound it will take quite a bit of time to get used to the magico's.
I would stay where you are. You have a great system! |
Koegz,
something must have attracted you to the 800D, right? Ask yourself what it is you're missing. Maybe, just maybe the new Kef 207/2 is the ticket. Heard it, loved it (more coherent, easier to set up than any B&W). Still haven't heard the magico (ridiculously overpriced over here in euro's - converted into dollars they are 45000). Good luck! |
Kana813,I appreciate with info.Thank you |
Golden,I was thinking more along the lines of "town house"!...Detached...
Btw,funny,as my Magico friend has quite old neighbors,who simply cannot hear his rig,at night.Lucky guy!Believe me,the Mini does virtually anything a sane 'phile could possibly want,and the bass(when set up well)is SO good you just don't think about a multi driver design.It really got me thinking about "why" anyone would want complexity of large cabinet/crossovers/multi drivers....Yet...
I do have a group of friends that are not wild about it!Of course these guys like to "split" plaster,with their db's.Personally I dred listening to their set-ups(sometimes) because if you have superb resolution,you just don't need to go deaf....My age is taking care of that already -:)
My Mini Utopia friend uses the sub,only during daytime sessions.
Me?...Well as of now I am elated where I am,and in truth,will do nothing until the housing market improves.
I am in the process of rooting out a "pain in the tush" gremlin,that has plagued me for a few months.It resides in my Pre/phonostage(I hope),so I am turning the "fix" into a major upgrade by adding V-Teflon caps,and a few other tid-bits.
Yet,I always keep an eye towards the future!
Best of luck |
Goldeneraguy- There's no production date set for the TAD monitors, CM-1: http://tadhomeaudio.com/CM-1.html
Suggest you try to hear the Pioneer S-2EX, here's a dealer listing:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/Speakers/ci.Authorized+EX+Speaker+Dealers.Kuro
I've heard the S-2EX and they're excellent. Just give them
plenty of power. |
Sirspeedy,It actually sounds like a well thought out plan.
I contacted Pioneer but received no response to my inquiry on the TAD or their own SX models.
Many years back I was at a dealer in Texas and listened to the Artemis EOS Monitors.The dealer insisted on placing the speakers about 15 feet apart so I could get the full effect of the sound stage.When I asked for the speakers to be placed much closer together he refused.Well needless to say I didnt buy anything that day.Years later I did have an opportunity to hear the EOS in a home system and found it to date to be the best monitor I have heard.Unfortunately they were no longer in business.The price some 18-?? years ago was about $6000.An exorbitant price for a monitor back then.
Today the prices have risen to the $20-30K range.
Mind boggling when I am reminded that my first home in 1965 was $22.000.
I to went the condo route and i must tell you that the condo board that informed me that "noise" prior to 8AM or after 11PM was not allowed soon changed to 10AM and 9PM.My neighbors complained to the board even at 2PM.I have since sold and moved back to a single dwelling.
Well it looks like I'll start by listening to the Magico Minis plus a few others and try not to make a decision until I hear the TAD monitors.I hope I can hold out that long.
Thank you for your thoughts and insight.
|
another speaker i am concidering is YG Acustics Anat Reference 2 Studio's. anyone hear or see them in action? |
Goldenerguy....I recently inquired about the TAD monitor.Mostly because I like the mid/high aspects of "their" coaxial midrange-tweeter,and understand "it" will be employed in the Monitor.I must assume they know what they are doing,and have read very good press about the prototypes.They look real nice too(not a huge priority,but a good thing)!!!I've heard the two different generation BIG speakers,and "hear" something that can be very good(under the right circumstances)there.But they are too big for my future plans,and a bit too expensive for me.
Well,I did get a reaponse from TAD's designer(a very nice fellow,btw)and he informed me that the actual finished design of the Monitor will not be available until the next CES!He stated "maybe" at RMAF!...
I kinda like their attitude,because IMO the success of the "superb/gorgeous" Mini could really benefit TAD,financially,if they were to move on this market "now"(one never knows what the economy will be down the road).He also informed me the Monitor is still in developement and will be in the thirty thousand dollar range!!...It better be "really" good!...I'll bet it will!!
BTW, I LOVE the Magico stuff!!!...In case I give "any" impression of being a picky contrarian.....Or an antagonist(not my intent)!Even the V3, is a fabulous speaker in the overall scheme of things as it pertains to how I view speakers.I know it to be superb.
From "my own" perspective,having very good exposure to "private" systems utilizing big multi driver arrays(like my friend's huge Pipe Dreams with four eighteen inch subs,or another friend's highly modded BIG Infinity four tower design)or my own take on a personal system( sealed overbuilt three way design,that I LOVE, with one supporting external sub)...the "thing" I am beginning to suspect,is some special speakers can "DO" big,BUT are not BIG in themselves....I really like this!!..The MINI falls into this category(for me).I am "not" talking just footprint,and I have my own reason for this.
Why?Because I am not always going to be SO lucky to have a "purpose built" dedicated room,like I currently do.With my main speaker,specifically selected for the room's volume,and acoustic(not to mention a custom amp,built for the speaker,by Jeff Rowland).I definitely don't think my set-up is the end all of systems,but I have really put alot into it!!Only to get what I want to get from a system,and it is a constant building process.Often annoying,because I am picky,and have angst when I am at a roadblock(like now)!But I think I will soon be rewarded.....Yet...
I expect to "downsize" my dwelling in the not too distant future.My kids are grown,and I don't need such a big home.Besides being handy is a pain,and I'd like to move to a nice Condo,where I don't have to do any fotzing with the house.Others will do that for me,allowing me to divulge my audio interests more.
So,from my own perspective,and exposure,I think there is a growing trend in "really good/big sounding",but fairly small speakers.I'd like a little artistic liberty in the appearance dept,but sound/design is the main criteria.
When I do go to my friends' homes,it is always a multi system day of listening.So,because my Magico Mini friend has such a good "room load",with a demure design,it STILL "does" the power music almost as well as the BIG BOYs!...That kinda raises my eye,as to where the future lies for my perspective/tastes/
That's why I like the Magico Mini so much,and have heard some other very promising designs too.
I also have a "somewhat friend" who once had a huge super system,but bad luck forced him into an apartment.He kept his huge/amazing LP collection,but was very careful about going to a smaller "full range" set-up,and he has succeeded(JM MINI UTOPIA Be/sub)!!He really knows what he "wants" from a home set-up,and this helped him.
So,in my case I am always looking at my not so distant future in the hobby,and where I most likely will be listening(from a room size perspective)....I doubt I would keep my current speaker/sub,and just feel a design like a Mini would do my extensive LP/CD collection full justice.Whatever/where ever the circumstances.
I think I'm a bit too analytical,but I'm stuck being me.
Also,I believe there will be a real push for smaller,superlative monitor designs,because of the success of the Mini.To my ear,the "less cabinet" one has,the better the sound(especially with good room loading).
Of course if I hit the lottery,this is all to be disregarded,and I would go crazy,in a cavernous room,with something BIG!!!!....THAT is a "REAL" Pipe Dream though!
JUST some meaningless thoughts!!
|
Sirspeedy,you have perked my interest in the TAD monitors.
Do you know where I can obtain info on them and do you know of any reputable dealers in the N.E. that will be showing them ?? |
Only a 2-3 year warranty for Magicos is certainly not what you would expect, especially given the hype and cost. If I were seriously considering buying a pair, that alone would make me think twice. |
"To say that it is alot better is simply irresponsible"
Dhann,give me a break!!!...
You seem to only read the stuff you don't like,and comment on "that" part!
I SPECIFICALLY said,on a few occassions that this was "only" MY taste....it STILL is,and no amount of bellyaching from you is going to change my "opinion".
Why do you care so much if someone prefers one product over another,in a hobby forum like here?
I believe I also stated the V3 was a fine speaker.
Btw,I like the V3 more than the Watt Puppy,but once again,that is ONLY me,and should definitely mean nothing,in the overall scheme of things....
Btw,I was totally unaware of any short warranty,and to be honest,with all the ballyhoo about great build,and non-standard type of driver mounting,using no screws,I don't understand why "this" is NOT a big deal....
With the asking cost involved,and the designer proclaiming other speakers are inferior,especially those with "inferior" screw techniques,and cabinet materials(according to Magico's press),the warranty leaves me very suspicious!....Why the heck should it be so short(if it really is under five years),if the product is built so well?
I really hope you are understanding of all this,and that to me at least,this is JUST hobby talk.
Best. |
Sirspeedy - As you know, I am a big fan of the brand. I have owned both speakers and have heard them both all over the world many many times (I travel a lot and I spend most of my “down time” at audio shops). Properly set up, there is simply no way, one would think that the mini is “A LOT better“ then the V3. First, they are very similar to begin with. Yes the Minis are special. They do certain things better/different then the V3. But the V3, that is almost as good/different as the mini in these few certain areas, do things that the Mini simply can not do. All over the world, most dealers and demos that I heard confirm that. Most dealers prefer the V3 and I understand that Magico sell may more V3 then Mini. You may still prefer the Mini but to say that it is “ALOT better” is simply irresponsible. Unless you heard them in the same environment, with the same gear, properly set up, you should not form any conclusions. |
Koegz,
Its registering with me that you are looking for a sound with more "muscle", like perhaps only the very large, most expensive full range speakers, like the Grand Utopias, can generally provide. If you can afford it and have the space for them, that's the way I predict you will go.
If you want to try something different and low risk first that might save you some $$$s and still provide the wow factor your looking for, I'd still recommend considering the Ohm 5s.
Keep us posted. I'm very interested to see where you end up! Good luck! |
Didn't get a chance to hear JM lab Grand Utopia, though they are on my list t hear someday. Heard Profile line Focals and like them very much. From what I've read, I'd expect the GU's must be outstanding. |
Has anyone heard these Magico speakers?
The first 2 links are these incredible looking Magico speakers that use alluminum cabinets and top of the line drivers.
http://rogueimc.org/images/2006/01/5788.jpg
http://rogueimc.org/images/2006/01/5790.jpg
The 3rd and 4th links are these top of the line Magico speakers from 1996.
They use an 11 inch Scanspeak woofer, Scanspeak Mid and the expensive JM Lab TLR tweeter.
This is the tweeter they use on the Utopia speakers.
These speakers weigh about 400 lbs, with the top at 125 lbs.
http://rogueimc.org/images/2008/06/13005.jpg
http://rogueimc.org/images/2008/06/13007.jpg |
Koegz,so are the fabulous NOVA Utopias! -:)I've heard them loads of times,and love them. |
"THIS LIMITED WARRANTY IS VALID FOR A PERIOD OF 3 YEARS FROM THE DATE OF PURCHASE OR TWO YEAR FOR ELECTRONICS INCLUDING AMPLIFIED LOUNDSPEAKERS." i may have read this wrong but even if i did 3yrs is a joke they warrantee cars and refridgerators longer. if the product is what you say stand behind it. that was all i ment. if i pay $25grand i want to know i have no wurries. that is why you buy new from an authorized dealer is it not. |
i also heard the JM lab Grande Utopia BE they knocked me out of my chair. they filled the room with great sound at any volume. one of my daughters was with me her jaw dropped and she said quickley said buy them. she has less trouble spending my money. i did not feel the v3 was ugly just not great looking kind of plain. as for the mini's just my opinion they had better looks with more class but i was not overly impress with the look of the speaker or stands where the 800d's are a great looking speaker. i heard 1 of the rock port's don't remember the name listed for $27000 or so nice looking but the lower end seemed exagerated just not real and not tight and defined like the grande. the grandes are impressive to see and sound as good or better then anything i ever heard. very cool. just my opinion. |
Dhann,first off I don't know where you got "any" impression of my "not" hearing the V3 set up correctly!...A false accusation,or asumption.They were set up quite well,and personally I liked the sound.
Also,I DO like the V3! "Ugly Betty" and all!...Just my taste(which as I DID mention previously,means nothing...unless you are me -:) Sheeeesh! Lighten up,and be happy you have great stuff!
I just happen to feel that the Mini is "more special",for whatever reasons(to me,and maybe some others).
I don't know why this affects you so much.You can prefer anything you like,and I will have no problem with your opinion.
Also,I'm not going to get into a "where/how did you hear the V3" competition....It was very well set up.Period!
I heard it,and liked it,but like the Mini ALOT better!
You are free to feel otherwise,and if so,God bless you!We do agree that both are wonderful products.
Btw,I "totally" appreciate the build quality of Magico stuff,and hope other mfgrs realize this is one reason for their appeal.
Best. |
Sorry,I meant the TAD monitor!...
A beautiful "three way",but the mid/tweets are coaxial,and I just bet it will be "special"!! |
Sirspeedy - I thought we already established the fact that you did not hear the V3 properly set up. I wonder, where did you hear them? And please do not tell me it was the HE2007 show. I also wonder how your impression correlates with some other guys here that claim that he actually "understand the quality of build and the detailed sound (Although they “don't look their price”)" But have an issue with the 2 years warranty (It is actually 3 years but let’s not confused anyone with the facts). |
OK,I simply want to give an opinion,having heard the V3,and having a close friend owning the MINI!!
I'm trying to be fair,but obviously just my own take,and please no venom!!
The v3 may be a superb speaker,and I like it,and have heard it well set up....BUT...it "does not alot",for me.Yes,it is a very well made,and good sounding design...Ehh!
There's lots of competition "there"!
Yet,the MINI is "special",and here's why(IMO,only)....
It does BIG,does SMALL does almost anything asked from it...It also fits into alot more room situations.
Like some other designs,but it IS SMALL,for what it does!!AND "that" is BIG!..and a BIG DEAL!At least to me.
The simple fact that there is SO much power,and detail coming from a point source "exraordinaire",with SO little actual "cabinet" is something to behold,from an audible point of view....Btw,the cabinet is gorgeous.
In terms of appearance,the v3 is "downright ugly",though very good sounding...but...though the v3 digs a bit deeper,the Mini sounds more "special" to me...Why?...
Because it IS!!Coherence?Probably,along with more magic...
To NOT hear "alot" of cabinet(I don't care how well made the V3 is,it's cabinet,and driver distances make it more obvious to "my" ear,as compared to the MINI)like the very well executed Mini,is a wonderful feature.
The MINI also looks gorgeous,and will definitely inspire the thought of it's cost,to the buyer....BUT...once again to be honest(IMO only)...
It is overpriced....Probably there is stuff competitive,but I still have not heard "that",in terms of the size/bulid quality/gorgeous looks/\...
I anxiously awauit the TSD Mini Monitor coming next fall!!
Just my two cents!
Best. |
I guess everyone hears things in there own way as MINI 2 AND V3 are raved about all over the world i think they are the best speaker out there!! |
Shadorne has a good point. Perhaps you have stated it already, but what is it that is missing that will knock you out of your chair?
Spending more money on speaks is not necessarily the answer. You already have outstanding speaks, Any move is most likely lateral. But lateral is not a bad thing as long as you know what you're looking for sound wise and have a reasonable plan to achieve it.
Assuming different speaks might help, in lieu of improving room acoustics, you may need to try something other than conventional box designs to get the wow your looking for.
Omni's are one possibility, which is why I suggested the Ohms as a cost effective place to test the waters. Active speakers? Maybe. Planars like Maggies? Maybe, if the room is not a problem, otherwise forget it. Tube amplification is another possibility.
Avalon is a distinctive line of large expensive full range speaks reknowned for detail and resolution that come to mind that I've heard and that sound nothing like B&Ws or Magicos from what I recall. Avalon Opus or Indras or something similar might be worth a listen, but I think these can get to be quite expensive as well. |
i want to be knocked out of my chair and for my wife to finally say "yeh that sounds better, so what". i do not mean an exagerated bottom end but to be real acurate enjoyable fantastic sound! To be knocked out of your chair when your previous speaker is the B&W 800d simply ain't gonna happen in terms of sound quality. {Magico mini or V3} i found the sound to be a little not there, held back. if this is detailed not for me. All I can suggest is you try to audition some high end active speakers - perhaps this will get you that extra edge you are looking for - that extra level of detail, clarity, precise bass and blistering dynamics. However, given where you are starting from - you simply ain't gonna be knocked out of your chair - no way no how. A complete custom room design/rebuild by a pro like Rives is probably your only ticket to the next level... ...just two cents. |
Koegz,
Before dropping $20000+ on new speaks, maybe consider auditioning a pair of Ohm 5 series 3 speakers. You can get an extended in-home trial period to break them in and make sure they fit the bill. I'd say they can do pretty much what the Magicos can in terms of overall presenation with proper amplification andeven more from what I've heard in terms of sound stage, dynamics and low end extension and finesse I would say, but at a fraction of the cost. With the Ohm 5s, I don't miss either B&Ws or Magnepans that I've owned in the past, each of which had their unique limitations. |
went saw and heard magico V3 and mini2's. i understand the quality of build and the detailed sound. what i don't understand is a 2yr warranty on a $25000.00 to $29000.00 set of speakers. also, honestly the mini or the V3's don't look their price. i found the sound to be a little not there, held back. if this is detailed not for me. leaning toward the new krell Modulari Duo they will be available in august. keep you posted |
Magico V3 have more natural sound faster more airy more natural and faster bass better soundstage as well as better depth of image!! |
I by chance heard some symphonic stuff on a pair of the smaller Magicos stand mounts in NYC this past weekend with a top notch CDP and some very high end tube amplification (>120W/ch) and Nordost wires. It was definitely a sound I could live with. Very airy, smooth and detailed, with a nice and natural sounding "warmth" to the string section. The low end extension and dynamics were not to the nth degree, but overall I'd say the system was very pleasing. There was definitely still a significant "wow" factor there for me. |
I heard the latest KRell Speakers in Munich w. a full Krell system. They are not the LAT series or on the website. They are new. They have a separate enclosure for Bass as compared to Midrange / treble. I honestly felt they had incredible potential. Give them a listen as you have Krell electronics so you are most of the way there. They had bass and if I remember correctly a Revelator Tweeter. Similar to the Magico if I am correct. I have a photo if you email me I can send it to you. |
Audiooracle, I am sure Magico is really sad you did not pick them up. After all who would go with SBS if they can go with a guy like you working out of his van. |
'Oracle
It doesn't look good to say the the V3's are overrated when you stated earlier that you wanted to aquire the line. |
Both of these speakers are quite good and differ in character.
The Magico is a good speaker and I was looking to pick them up as their dealer for NY before SBS picked them up.
I have heard them at all the shows and they are extremely over rated. In terms of technology or advancing the art they excel in neither. Krell and YG make all aluminium speakers and in fact PSB makes a cabinet with an aluminium front and rear baffle with a laminated 7 ply cabinet and they sell for $4,500.00!
Others have built state of the art crossovers, and state of the art drivers. Why all the hype with this one brand.
I do not sell YG acoustics speakers but, they are a speaker system which is a far more impressive design than Magico, perhaps they haven't wooed the press as effectively.
In defensive of B&W there is an awful lot of advanced technology in the 800D that you have, in my opinion, the frustrating part of the current B&W designs is they need a lot of power and are not as dynamic as other speakers I have heard with micro dynamic swings.
A Magico is a side step at best, to truly move up to another realm of possibility in sound you need to graduate upwards to larger displacement loudspeakers with greater
sensitivity, a great sense of soundstage preand truly low deep bass response. |
V3s offer startling openness, transparency, clarity, and dynamics, but for these qualities plus a more authoritative & seamless bass region I'll keep my Merlin VSM-MX. |
check out the ne reference speakers for abbey road studios LOL |
check out the ne reference speakers for abbey road studios |
Dear Koegz, I don't know how you can make an opinion on the V3 with the advice of A'goners that haven't even heard them in a similar setup as yours. I would be lost. |
Koegz,
Really, I think you are just looking for a more open and transparent full range sound. Sonus Strads certainly fit the bill, but I'm not sure you necessarily have to spend that much to get what you're looking for. I would think twice or three times before starting there. Even if cost is no option, you want to make sure the speaks fit the room before springing.
Also, I'm noticing your listening room with the speakers set up around the corner and what appears to be mirrored walls. This does not look optimal for your B&Ws from what I can see. It appears you are trying to enable a wider soundstage with this configuration and that maybe size of the soundstage is a problem for you. Maybe try a different configuration with speaks at various distances apart near a shorter dimension wall? Some room treatments might help even once the placement is optimized, though that would be secondary. I don't think the refined very British timbre of the B&Ws are a mismatch per se to your room acoustics from what I can tell. though, so I do not think that is likely a problem.
I can't really tell how big the room is. Maybe the speaks just do not have the room to breathe and image well needed?
If so, you might consider something smaller even possibly, and possibly LESS expensive with a good sub if needed to extend back to the range of the B&Ws or perhaps even better.
I owned B&W P6's. Not as high end or large as yours, but I found even they needed a larger room to sing. If I had the right room, I would probably still have them because I did like what they did when set up properly. Unfortunately, I did not have a suitable room to put them in so they went.
B&Ws are not best in class in terms of being FAST or transparent though, I have found. Listen to them next to any pair of decent Triangles or Maggies and you will hear what I mean.
For large, full range sound stage without sub and flexibility in placement in various rooms, the Ohm Walsh speaker line is the most cost effective option I know of. I own two pair that helped send both Maggies and B&Ws out the door in my application. |
Firstly you have great speakers so if you never ever changed I would understand as that would probably be the most sensible thing to do. As others have said you are changing for teh sake of changing. However, perhaps you have the 7 year itch.
What can I say about the B&W 800d's if I were to nit pick.
1) They are bass extended with a port at 40 Hz (this will not be quite as tight as a sealed box or a pro design that uses a port for higher efficiency or a subwoofer without port for the bottom octave) On the upside you get fantastic powerful bass - probably ideal for HT - but it may cloud or muddy the lower midrange except in large rooms.
2) The B&W midrange is exceptional - but it has one weakness - it is too large for a midrange and it beams. Therefore you get a weak presentation off axis from about 1 Khz to 3 Khz with most B&W's of this type and the 800d is no exception. When the dome tweeter kicks in around 4 Khz you suddenly get a proper presentation (wide dispersion off axis) and this tends to make for a relative sudden boost at these frequencies (remember you hear the primary direct and the off axis reflected signal which are combined to give an overal audio presentation to your brain - so things will jump out at you a bit more than they should - and this helps sell as it dinstinguishes B&W's and gives them their "detailed" but polite sound). In essence this type design is called the classic "BBC Dip" and although a coloration it is EXTREMELY popular - it is associated with a warm and less harsh sound - seeing as it is used in many of the most susccesful speakers on the planet - again not a real issue and if you like classical this is a great presentation!
Nothing to worry about. The above is in the category of extreme nit picking. (looking for faults when there really aren't any - as this is B&W's best speaker by far) |
I had the 800d before and love them and now Avalon Eidolon. If you are looking for speakers that knock you out of your chair, I am afraid the Magico wont be your ticket. You need to shop in the $40K plus range for speakers: Wilson Maxx, Avalon Isis, Sonus Strad., in order to get knocked out! |
this is what i am wondering. i am looking to say "wow that really sounds great, so this is what i have been missing!". not just to spend $ or change things. i want to be knocked out of my chair and for my wife to finally say "yeh that sounds better, so what". i do not mean an exagerated bottom end but to be real acurate enjoyable fantastic sound! |
"Magico speakers are really something special. They don't sound like conventional box speakers, more like dipole ESL or planars, with the dynamics of a good box speaker. They take advantge of both worlds."
Never heard Magicos but from this description, they are in a different camp than B&Ws for sure. Sounds like a personal preference choice, not a matter of which is better. |
Your ears.
Your money.
Your decision. |
Magico speakers are really something special. They don't sound like conventional box speakers, more like dipole ESL or planars, with the dynamics of a good box speaker. They take advantge of both worlds. Very good design.
I wish I could afford one pair . For now I enjoy electrostatics with tube amplification and this combo is also magical with vinyl. Have a listen to ML Summits or Magnepan 20, Magic....ohhhh !!!! |
Why are you considering this specific change? |
They are both dynamic designs at roughly the same price/quality level. No question the 800d's are better for HT than the V-3 and are as good (only different) for audio. There are lots of sideway moves at your system level. You better love the next pair of speakers before you move to them. |
You have a great system, keep the 800d's. I would suspect the V-3 would be at a disadvantage in the lower octaves. |
This may not be the popular opinion, but I have B&W Signature 800's. At this level there are minor differences and many sideways moves.
Spend a few evenings listening to music that you love on your 800d's and ask yourself if you are really missing anything. Most likely not. |
