Update, borreson is in a couple months releasing a more affordable line of speakers. The intro speaker will be 11k
Axpona reviewers perceptions and reality
Just read the Absolute Sounds' review of speakers $20k and many of the speakers and systems singled out by Mr. Vallin were in our opinion were mostly subpar and many of these systems were extremely expensive to the tune of $500k and above price levels.
Many critics love the big Von Schweikert/Vac rooms we felt that in both recent shows: Cap and at Axpona these rooms were way too massive for even these large and expensive speakers and these systems did not have the room lock effect where the speakers are actually presurizing the room and therefore producing the realistic size and scope of a live performance.
Other disappointments that critics liked
The High Water Sound room was just dismbodied, soft sounding and utterly uninvolving,.
The CH Precision room not that good especially for the insane price tag of $500k for this room at least.
The YG acoustics/Audionet was an extremely expensive rig that failed to impress.
The Hanawi speakers first sounded great on an old recording totally disapeared and then sounded aweful on a modern record dead, no dynamics, limited top end no bottom.
We do agree that the YG Linenberg setup was very good and way less expensive then some of the other rigs.
Both Magico systems were horrible, the gigantic Magico dual sub system was impressive in the way it filled the space with scale and image size and bass output, but was lifeless and dead sounding, and the CH Precison Magico setup was also boring and uninvolving with an insane cost of probably another $500k level room.
We also agree that the Wilson/Arc room was magical
We also thought the MBL's sounded very good
We also thought the Avante Garde room was also extremely good.
The point is Mr. Vallin hailed many systems as being best in show that in our opinion didn't deliver the goods at all
The Piega room was not anything special, the German Physics again not bad not that good either, most omni's don't sound right to us,. the Eikons were good for an all in one and the Haniwa's were just aweful other than a 1950's record they were playing which sounded great.
Many critics love the big Von Schweikert/Vac rooms we felt that in both recent shows: Cap and at Axpona these rooms were way too massive for even these large and expensive speakers and these systems did not have the room lock effect where the speakers are actually presurizing the room and therefore producing the realistic size and scope of a live performance.
Other disappointments that critics liked
The High Water Sound room was just dismbodied, soft sounding and utterly uninvolving,.
The CH Precision room not that good especially for the insane price tag of $500k for this room at least.
The YG acoustics/Audionet was an extremely expensive rig that failed to impress.
The Hanawi speakers first sounded great on an old recording totally disapeared and then sounded aweful on a modern record dead, no dynamics, limited top end no bottom.
We do agree that the YG Linenberg setup was very good and way less expensive then some of the other rigs.
Both Magico systems were horrible, the gigantic Magico dual sub system was impressive in the way it filled the space with scale and image size and bass output, but was lifeless and dead sounding, and the CH Precison Magico setup was also boring and uninvolving with an insane cost of probably another $500k level room.
We also agree that the Wilson/Arc room was magical
We also thought the MBL's sounded very good
We also thought the Avante Garde room was also extremely good.
The point is Mr. Vallin hailed many systems as being best in show that in our opinion didn't deliver the goods at all
The Piega room was not anything special, the German Physics again not bad not that good either, most omni's don't sound right to us,. the Eikons were good for an all in one and the Haniwa's were just aweful other than a 1950's record they were playing which sounded great.
Best Sound of Show (price notwithstanding): This is a tough one, given that most of the contenders competed on a fairly even footing. So I’m going to declare a tie among the Stenheim Alumine Five, (We didnt hear these no comment)
the YG Hailey 2.2, the MBL 101 E, the Goebel Divin Noblesse, the Magico M2, the Magico M6, the Avantgarde Duo Mezzo XD, the German Physiks Borderlands, and the Piega Coax 711.
Best Sound of Show (for the money): I didn’t get to hear the new $695 Maggies (that’s how busy I was), which reputedly were terrific, but in my category the Eikon and the Haniwa were pretty darn appealing.
Our best in show for expensive speakers and systems was very, different then Mr. Vallen's just currious what others tought of his listings:
Our best in show no particular order
Wilson/ARC
Gryphon Room
T+A Solitare
Vimberg (best bang for the buck reference speaker at show at $36k sounded amazing)
MBL
Grande Utopia EM/Naim Statement Our pick for best in show
Avante Garde
Worst in show for very expensive setups
Both Magico rooms
YG/Audionet
Piega/Air Tight
What do you guys think of our list and comments on Mr. Vallens opinions.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
65 responses Add your response
The "Dishonesty in "high-end" audio world" had to be removed. Some
big shot or big shooter who takes free speach in his own hands thinks its better not to see a opinion. I see to many being renowned Its not right who can talk and who can't I'm sorry to be blunt but, your point would be much clearer if you typed with correct grammar. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. |
Fleschler, the Magico setups at shows are either respected or not loved. We have never heard a Magico setup yet that we would love to floor, that doesn't mean they aren't good speakers it just means that in our experience they weren't doing it for us in the demos we heard them in The CH Precsion Magico M6 was a very expensive setup and the sound was decent but not magical for a $300k+ setup, it could nave been much more but really hard to gauge the speaekrs are $62k the MSB Dac they had two one is the $90k one and CH Precsion gear tends to run to $120k to way more depending on the specific models so in that context we were expecting much more. As per Von Schweikerts really hard to gauge them, the $1.4 million dollar setup didn't impress us at both CAP and at Axpona, the room size is just way too massive for even these large speakers, The Magico M3 on the new Classe Delta electronics was surprsingly nice sounding and the electronics were much more affordable then the mega systems. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
I would like to hear the Von Schweikert "affordable" speakers such as the VR55. My wife and I love the Ultra 11 in a $1.4 million setup but we have neither the money nor the space for it. I would like to also hear the Vimberg to compare. From my observations in friends homes who complained they rooms sounded bad, removing the awful High Fidelity cables and the less bad Ypsilon pre-amp did the trick and replacing them with cabling at 1/25 the price and ($105,000 down to $3,500) and a different tube pre-amps. Glad to hear one Magico set up finally sounded good after hearing at least 15 Magico setups that were bland or stunk over the years. |
| Post removed |
kingbarbuda, Grant just posted a sketch of his new LRS/MMG stands on the Planar Asylum: https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=mug&m=236523 His idea is to make them more economical so that they don’t cost as much as the speakers. Agree that the issue with the Magicos (and many other speakers I heard) was the acoustics of the rooms, and the bad seating/crowding. I’ve heard them sounding much, much better. Also, I had to wonder at some of the demo material! Things like processed voice. How is that supposed to show off a high end speaker? But what can you do . . . |
Mr. JON VALIN, STINKS!!!!! (I was there, 2015 Chicago). Magico STINKS!!!!! Martin Logan, STINKS!!!! Synergistic Research Cables & Tranquility Base, STINKS!! Silent Running Audio (SRA) the total: $11,000 STINKS!!! .... OH MY GOD!!!! Harmonic Resolution System (HRS), & Critical Mass Systems, the TOTAL: $22,000.00 (i.e. J. Valin) STINKS!!!... AND do to: FANTASIES!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now, ARC, CONRAD JOHNSON, McINTOSH, darTZeel, ZANDEN, and YPSILON ELECTRONICS.... REALLY, REALLLLLLLLY GREAT!!! TARA LABS, NORDOST, HIGH FIDELITY CABLES and SCAENA LOUDSPEAKERS..... THAT'S IT! THAT'S IT'S! (32 years-old audiophile). |
I am biased, but I thought both rooms with the new Spatial Audio speakers sounded excellent. Ditto for the lovely Salk Audio speakers, they were very impressive. As alway, the MBL room got audio prize from me, particularly with respect to their $17K stand mounts speaker. Very holographic presentation and solid bass performance sans a subwoofer. I heard the new PS Audio speakers and thought they sounded nice, but few others seemed to agree. I was really impressed with the little Vanatoo powered speakers at $350 and $550, they could be the heart of very nice modestly-priced system. Finally, I reckon the star of the show -- and I didn't get a chance to hear them, were the new $650 Magnepans. What a deal for a big sound! |
I agree with the comments about the Magnepan LRS at $650. I heard them. Front row in the small seating area. Yes. Hands down the best bang for the buck. I am not sure they even need a bass panel or subwoofer. I would be interested in what Grant VanderMye can do with these for stands. Yes. The Classé and Magico Room was also great. Very involving and lots of realism and dynamics. I am familiar with Magico and own a pair of A3, but it really got me to pay attention to what Classé is doing. I will also say regarding the negative comments of some the Magico rooms. A lot of their rooms are crowded and not good acoustically, as were a lot of other rooms. F1 audio didn’t even have a room but a big space. That is not optimal to properly judge equipment. If you were to actually go to F1 Audio and listen to Magicos in one of their proper rooms, I believe all would be very impressed. |
There are far too many variables at a show like Axpona to compare one’s judgement to another’s. The source of course being the largest variable. The seating arrangement another. I don’t know if there was a Press Day but if so that would have had far fewer attendees than on Saturday which was when I was there. That would affect the listening environment. |
I’m glad you posted this because your impressions were so much like mine. And I’ve been shaking my head over show reports that tout speakers that I thought were performing poorly, e.g., the Magicos. The big system in particular sounded awful when I heard it, as how could it not in the space it was in? The truth is I didn’t hear much good sound at the show, and what I did hear was often in unexpected places. Interestingly, the Wilsons were sounding good and I’m not a big Wilson fan. I suspect it’s because Wilsons have a response suckout precisely where those rooms are too bright -- what JV referred to as a megaphone-like effect. Jonathan did say, ’Oh, next to nothing sounded spine-tinglingly realistic at the Chicago show, so if you were an “absolute sound” kind of listener you might’ve been slightly let down. On the other hand, if the drama, detail, and color of music were your first priorities (i.e., if you were an “as you like it” or “musicality-first” kind of listener) AXPONA would have proved a consistent delight.’ For me, fidelity is the primary goal and when ranked on that basis, your impressions are closer to mine than his were. It’s unrealistic of course to expect systems to perform at their best under show conditions, but still, it was a bit disillusioning to come home and hear better sound from my own system than I heard from any of the megapriced systems at the show. For me, the highlight of the show was the little Magnepan LRS. Of course, that’s taking into account their $650 price, but it’s kind of scary that $650 speakers had the best imaging and some of the best sound at the show! I’ve never heard anything close for that kind of money. I think they’ll become the go-to speakers for starter and second systems. |
instlouis56 posts04-28-2019 1:39pm@geoffkait - Weren't you advised to cut down on your sodium? You’re very close. It was lithium. |
@prof Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately it really hit home at AXPONA this year just how poorly Stereophile reports on the sound of a room. I went to many of the same rooms and was reporting live on what I heard- no filtering- just stream of conscious opinions- and they were real. I understand that Stereophile’s opinions count- which is exactly why they should tell the truth or don’t say anything at all. We would understand the poor acoustics, etc could contribute to the lack of sound quality. The bottom line is that it is an AUDIO show and how the systems Sound is the main reason for its existence. Report on what you hear. The good with the bad. If you are consciously leaving out critical opinions (for whatever reason) then you are not reporting the truth- and in fact deceiving by omission. Tell the truth or just list the components of the system and show pretty pictures like TAS does. For anyone interested here was my stream of conscious, unfiltered as it happened AXPONA reporting as posted to Steve Hoffman Audio Forums. https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/axpona-live.829948/ |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
Really Liamowen, what are we trying to "sell" you? As per incoherent or full of grammatical errors, really who cares? Either the post is interesting or relevant or it is not. You mistake the ability to type and see what you are writing with relevant or insightful commentary and unfortunately there is no real spell check along with this program also some of us our eyes aren't what they used to be. Personally your post should be removed as it is "derailing" the thread which is not about us, per se, nor grammar or syntax. The post is about a particular reviewer's opinions and to see if people agreed with him or not. We thought some of this choices were questionable and are contradictory, for example the reviewer tends to like Rahido and Bortessen speakers which tend to present a lot of high frequency detail yet he is also praising speakers which in our opinion sound distinctly rolled off like the High Water Sound speakers and the Hawaii speakers. As a retailor you need to have different loudspeakers based on the consumers tastes, which include physical looks, speaker size, type of cabinet finish some people like wood others like painted finishes, amount of bass, and of course price range. A reviewer doesn't have to have that luxury, which is why we wrote the post. Do you have comments on our observations? Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
I always take comments from people who are in the business of trying to sell me something with a big grain of salt. This is particularly true when their posts are incoherent (as others have mentioned) and full of grammatical errors (like others have also mentioned). Dave & Troy are famous for the above. Now, does this post have to be removed, too? |
@geoffkait - Weren't you advised to cut down on your sodium ? LOL ( sorry ..had to put that in there and I agree with your comment ! ) @Bubba12 - The Atohm's were being displayed/demo'd by some of my STL homies ( Music for Pleasure ) and I went to their room unprepared to be blown away by GT1's and GT2's. I have put the GT2 ( possible GT3) on my wish list . |
For me two systems held my attention in part because I knew they were small, affordable and simple: the parasound with buchardt 400 and the wharfedale linton/quad. The buchardt was playing some unfamiliar jazz and to my ears it just seemed coherent, satisfying and big considering the little boxes. The lintons were playing an electronic track that had a thick bassline and sounded again engaging and satisfying. At those moments the combination of the tracks played and the relative low cost of the systems kept me interested. The Harbeth P3 was also a (very) small affordable speaker and with the technics behind them sounded competent however at the time they sounded like they were being pushed too hard (clipping amp? or their physical limit?) they are a tiny speaker and definitely have their limits from their intended design. I'd leave the P3 as a specialized tiny monitor for close listening or tiny room whereas the (larger) buchardt and linton could easily fill a large space with sound. |
| Post removed |
I spent 4 days at a 3 day show. Snow. Friday night I tried to encourage an online dialogue for attendees to post their idea of the great rooms. They all came too late. I missed Odyssey, $695 Maggies, and some others I hear were great. Darn! Many rooms were a walk in and turn around at the first opportunity. Some had bad sound, same chose bad music and way too many played a Db level that did not work in the room. Best I heard: SandersSound, Magnepan 3.7 room, ML Renaissance Room, Vimberg. Big Von Schweikert at $300k/pr. Borresson Bookshelves. Salks sounded very good to me and they played at a reasonable level. Jim is quite a gentlemen and just looking at his craftsmanship for a few minutes is a second pleasure. Not computer generated boxes. Disappointing -Vandersteen, Magico and plenty of other brands. I know I missed many rooms but I was in all the above mentioned rooms. |
My thought is any audio company (magazine, dealer, brand) has an agenda when reviewing a show. My second thought is, everyone hears differently and is probably the biggest factor at any show. Best sound of show (I've won a few) is kind of childish. And another huge factor besides showrooms only sound good on the third day rule is how much people standing or sitting in these rooms affect the sound. No way can true reviewing be done at these shows and I feel bad when people say certain rooms sound bad when there are truly so many variables involved. Trade shows being use to make sonic judgements is like someone walking into a store with the rooms crammed full of products and speakers not having dedicated rooms setup. Michael Green |
