Audio Science Review = Rebuttal and Further Thoughts

In reality I think it’s all misplaced nervosa.

Where we all want to talk about the war (even if we say we don’t!), in some fashion, but the forum won’t let us.

Even though this is probably the best place for us to talk about it all, as other places are just boiling slug fests where it’s all lowest common denominator, no decent quality of communication, and nothing changes.

Additionally, the societal/economic position/connections and intellect, etc, of the denizens of this forum, makes for a ripple effect in western society that is like 20-50-100:1 greater than any other given similar size or mass of people on a given forum.

And... if there was ever a time for a ripple effect of that nature, it would surely be now.

Come on children, all together now:’ We all live in a yellow submarine…’

Interesting thread. Many, including myself, believe that blind testing and A/B testing in general is flawed and not a reliable means to test for differences, identification or preferences between gear. The reasons are many and posted on many other forums including ASR.

I feel one must live with a “change” in gear for a period of days and over this time will come to better understand how the sound/music has changed. Yes, I trust we humans can decide this for ourselves with time.

Removing a sense, sight, does not necessarily make for a more accurate or statistically significant result. I think these short A/B comparisons place additional stress on the ear/brain processing and completely blocks the potential for a useful outcome. My system NEVER sounds very good when I am under stress or anxiety. Never. I have found changing a cable for evaluation during these times is not wise.  

I am confident many greatly over emphasize the role of expectation bias and have fallen for the perceived benefit of blind testing. Much better to listen over days in your home with your eyes open and shut.

So many variables with blind and sighted A/B testing. Many we certainly don’t even understand in 2022. Give yourself time with the change and you can trust your senses in the end. Give yourself time to know how you engage with the music. How are your reacting to the change mentally, emotionally and even physically? More enjoyable? Less enjoyable? Listening longer or shorter periods of time? More or less relaxed and “into” the music?

One more thought: keep measuring the wrong thing and the earth stays flat

Take a valium. Take hours, days, weeks, the requirement you have no idea what component was changed. Speakers wouldn't be practical but DACs or cables should be easy enough. I never passed a blind test on either of those. 

@djones51 

After reading Prof comments on Audiogon and MattHooper on ASR I would say they are the same person. Seems like a well rounded intelligent fellow who understands the value of measurements but not to the exclusion of what he enjoys. One can like vinyl but understand it doesn't measure as well as digital. You can like tube amps and know they can't measure better than a lot of SS amps. One can understand they are subject to human biases without assuming they are hallucinating, can understand that extraordinary claims that most tweaks advertise should provide extraordinary evidence. 

Hey!  Someone gets it, actually reading what I've written.  What a refreshing surprise!   Thanks djones51 !

@prof

Someone gets it, actually reading what I’ve written.

Yeah, not just reading but in appreciation.

There remain a few here who have an IQ above double digits who are grateful and feel blessed for your patience and thoughts and gentle disposition.

Will all the posters with the IQ as mentioned above please post your systems with pics and measurements in your profile? Please share, it will be really interesting to see how you have applied your knowledge and experience in real life, not just in a chat room. Looking forward :)

If you want to post data from your components, blind listening tests, etc. that would be a bonus.

@thyname like @djones51 I very much enjoy @prof’s posts as MH at ASR.

Speaking of identities, I recall someone posting as audio2design at ASR (they’re on my ignore list there, probably not a big surprise).

@fleschler thanks for hosting the afterparty ...

Will all the posters with the IQ as mentioned above please post your systems with pics and measurements in your profile? Please share, it will be really interesting to see how you have applied your knowledge and experience in real life, not just in a chat room. Looking forward :)

If you want to post data from your components, blind listening tests, etc. that would be a bonus.

Based on your previous response, I have a hunch you aren't that interested in data and blind tests, and the request for an equipment profile is often a distraction from the arguments.   It's been quite typical when discussing these issues that some audiophiles say "Well, I don't know whether to take you seriously until I see that you have Audiophile Certified High Priced Gear."  None of the arguments rely on whatever gear any of us have.  (And it NEVER matters what gear you have anyway, because the same people dismissing you will still find a way to dismiss you.  See for instance posting Amir's clearly high-end system, that didn't make a dent here).

I've posted many times about the various gear I own and have owned.  I don't care to make it a distraction in this particular thread.

@prof I am very interested in your data, if you got it, post it in the system page in your profile. Otherwise I will let you go back to your rants. I really thought you could showcase something unless......

@noske I am very interested in your system and data too, please post something. I hope you aren’t simply exaggerating either about your system or your IQ unless....

kota1

I have no idea what you mean by "showcasing" anything or what "data" you are requesting.

Lesson in communication:  Don't make a request of someone, pretending to be politely interested, in the same post where you disparage their views as "rants." 

It comes off as disingenuous.

@prof  you are a long time member and I assumed too much, understood. If you look at my profile you will see a list of components I use, pics of my rig, and my room measurements. Would you be so kind to post something similar in your profile? I am sincerely interested. Thanks

@kota1

@prof if this is a rant, we are used to your rants by now. If this is a discussion please post your system photos, components, and measurements in your profile.

Where do you post these? I can’t see anything separate (from regular posts) in the way of profile posts when I go to your profile, but I may be missing something or looking in the wrong place.

For example, I checked out an 'end game" thread you started that was listed there. That wasn't it. Tangentially, shame you didn't buy those Gallo's on Mapleshade, I fancied that setup myself.

@axo1989 good question, go to the link below, at the top you will see a tab "Create System" and you are on your way:

prof if this is a rant, we are used to your rants by now. If this is a discussion please post your system photos, components, and measurements in your profile.

Well @kota1 you actually have measurements in your profile.
So I guess there is some part of science and measurements that you abide.

So where is the hostility tied to?
It is not like you took the measurements and decided to chuck them out n favour of listening.

Where do you post these? I can’t see anything separate (from regular posts) in the way of profile posts when I go to your profile, for example, but I may be missing something or looking in the wrong place.

@axo1989  under systems, which seems never to be easy to find.

To see a members system  from a thread just click on their handle/name in a post and click "details" in the drop down menu. You will be taken to their profile and if they have posted a system it will be linked right there.

@holmz , I thought everyone here knew how the virtual systems page works, my bad :). As for measurements, I am not against measurements, I thought posting them would be interesting if we are discussing measurements any way right?

To see a members system  from a thread just click on their handle/name in a post and click "details" in the drop down menu.

Have you ever noticed any system posted by the so called measurement folks? I don't doubt that some of them might have actually some good components. I feel it must be because they believe in measurements, they simply purchased a pair of speaker, some components and plopped them in some corner or even worse, who knows.

I don't know if careful setup is part of their system implementation process. Actually placement is the only measurement I do in my system. Takes me days sometimes when I fine tune with my ears. But when you purchase a pair of loudspeaker based on driver measurements (parts measurement, not sum of whole speaker), then I guess placement would not matter.

@kota1 

To see a members system  from a thread just click on their handle/name in a post and click "details" in the drop down menu. You will be taken to their profile and if they have posted a system it will be linked right there.

Thanks. Yes I can "systems" briefly appear on your page before it vanishes. I may have my browser locked down too hard, or macOS/Safari may not be agreeable. I might try a bit later on a Windows VM ...

@milpai , that is an excellent point, I would like to see some "meat on the bone" and if someone wants to talk measurements, post some of your own and then lets talk. I would always try and get the room first, the speaker placement second, the power third, the IC's 4th and NOW you should be able to actually discern the difference a quality component makes. Otherwise I don't see how you will ever get the best value of the money spent.

@milpai

Have you ever noticed any system posted by the so called measurement folks? I don’t doubt that some of them might have actually some good components. I feel it must be because they believe in measurements, they simply purchased a pair of speaker, some components and plopped them in some corner or even worse, who knows.

I don’t know if careful setup is part of their system implementation process. Actually placement is the only measurement I do in my system. Takes me days sometimes when I fine tune with my ears. But when you purchase a pair of loudspeaker based on driver measurements (parts measurement, not sum of whole speaker), then I guess placement would not matter.

I don’t know if I fully qualify (I do like to see measurements but I’d baulk at buying an amp or speaker without listening). But setup measurements are totally useful and necessary in my book.

I bought new speakers last year (Audio Physic Codex, replacing Tempo) put them where the old ones were. Had a decent listen first and made some notes. Bass had a boom but mid-bass was dry. Midrange maybe too forward but along with treble it’s clear and really pretty nice. Toed them in a bit.

Ran measuring app (Fuzzmeasure with the mic at listening position aka LP) with triple sweeps on left then right speakers. Nasty null 70-80 Hz (predicted coincidence of lateral and oblique modes per Amcoustics room model) obvious peak at 50 Hz (ditto, from the second long mode) and a few high-Q suckouts up to Schroeder (~300 Hz) bringing overall mid-bass energy down (explains ’boom’ and ’dry’). Marked out the floor at 200 mm steps and moved speakers toward the side wall, measuring each step. The null was mitigated (as you’d expect) but treble started to roll off a bit > 10 kHz, so four steps sideways then one step back. Similar stepping toward the back wall with no difference to the bass boom (as you’d expect, needs a metre or more in the other direction at that wavelength really but not enough room in the loft for that) but treble picked up again.

Adjusted toe-in to face LP. Stereo image is pretty nice (as expected from Audio Physic spaced wide and aimed properly). Toed-in to cross in front of LP but lost some soundstage width so back to aiming at me. Good so far. That leaves the 50 Hz peak and the 100-300 Hz range to fill in bit and match 1 kHz level. That’s what DSP is for so run Sonarworks (~ 40 sweeps around the listening position) and apply the classic B&K 1974 curve. Boom gone, nice subtle balancing of midbass warmth and a little bit of excess gone from the midrange. Stereo image focus improves as well. Looking and sounding pretty good now.

No one has to follow my methods of course, but they work for me. Why futz around in the dark? All the positive sonics of the gear but mitigate some negative impacts of the room (there’s more to that story but another time). There’s no contradiction in my mind between useful setup measurements and nice audio gear.

@prof how about that we have something in common, the Node. I like the Bluos software and it sounds OK on my desktop. In my main system it isn't a good match. With the DAC you use it should be fine as a streamer though. Have you ever taken any measurements?

I’m not sure I’d do a profile either, I tend to put as little information as possible into online repositories when I’m not the paying client.

If it helps to contextualise, my source is usually Apple Music on M2 MacBook Pro > asynchronous USB audio over Apple Thunderbolt Pro cable to exaSound e68 DAC > SWAMP Premium Mini XLR to Krell KAV-2250 > Analysis Plus Black Oval 12 cable to above-mentioned AP Codex sitting on AP mag-lev feet.

In audiophile style I’ve even checked cable details for all ya’ll.

Oh nearly forgot the Teddy Pardo power supply for the DAC (couldn't come at the standard wall-wart). Also amusingly, the Apple cable cost just a bit more per metre than the Analysis Plus. But it has excellent haptics.

@axo1989 , your post is very helpful, I like how you test and move, test and move and then DSP is used to fine tune. So sad how many people think DSP is all you need. Its only when you do the speaker positioning and the room that its able to fine tune it. I see you started your virtual system, looking forward to seeing it.

kota1

Yeah, I never intended to use the Bluesound NODE without my external DAC.

No, never taken measurements.  Not interested in doing so.  It's not my thing. The Benchmark equipment has been measured by people far more knowledgeable and competent than I am, and the reports are stellar.

@prof , your gear is quality stuff, agreed. Hope you can post pics sometime.

I would recommend swapping out the Node for the NAD C658 streamer. It is a much better match to the higher level gear you have AND it comes with a microphone and a dsp software called DIRAC. Will take 10 minutes to run and will measure it and correct the room problems to the degree possible. I know you don't need it as a DAC but the DIRAC dsp software is worth it, even if you just use it as a streaming source.

@kota1

I would always try and get the room first, the speaker placement second, the power third, the IC’s 4th and NOW you should be able to actually discern the difference a quality component makes.

I think this is absolutely the correct order to do things. There’s a bit of re-iteration of the whole cycle I guess, at least for me as I learned/experienced more of amp-speaker-room interaction.

@axo1989 , your post is very helpful, I like how you test and move, test and move and then DSP is used to fine tune. So sad how many people think DSP is all you need but when you do the heavy lifting it will really be able to do the best job possible.

Glad it made sense. I tried DSP first a while back but learned (for example) you can’t just pour power into a serious null. Adding a Krell helped (even a baby one) but drivers have limits. DSP gain increases distortion of course so you want to get as far as you can before that.

This time when I did listening I used my usual music but also stepped test tones. When it got to that 70-80 Hz null in the original position it sounded like a giant grabbed the speaker by the throat and squeezed, Move the speaker out of the giant's reach, it needs to breathe.

Kota1,

Thank you for the recommendation. However I have no need for the NAD.

I'm very aware of DIRAC - the AVSforum especially has been a DIRAC love-fest for many years.  I listen to records more than digital these days and prefer not to digitize my analog system.  If only out of conceptual purity :-)

I also tried subwoofers - JL Audio, their CR-1 crossover, and the Dspeaker Anti-mode.  I preferred my speakers without all of that and sold it off.  I'm pretty old school I guess.

@prof 

I listen to records more than digital these days and prefer not to digitize my analog system.  If only out of conceptual purity :-)

I do understand this. Perhaps when my life is less messy I'll try vinyl.

@kota1 You’ve done a very impressive job correcting your room sound from the speakers alone (quite bumpy). Looks really flat after correction.

Back in the mid-1980s, I was fortunate to hear Conrad Johnson’s top pre-amp (don’t remember the name), an Audio Research SP 8 and an SP 10 (I don’t remember which of the 7 versions). I was amazed at how dark and closed in sounding the CJ pre-amp was, even compared to my highly modified Dynaco PAS--3. The SP8 was just as warm sounding but the soundstage was so much larger, more open. The SP10 blew me away. Great soundstage, 3 dimensional sound and wide frequency response. I couldn’t afford and it uses a lot of tubes.

A year later I acquired a Fisher 400 CX tube preamp for free from an estate. It sounded almost as good as the SP10, a little darker and less open. Musically it was great. I sold it for a nice profit. At the time, I didn’t realize how good it would be even today but my tech guy back then said his Dynaco was "purer" sounding.

I have heard since the 80’s maybe 4 CJ preamps and at least 5 CJ amps. My neighbor had the CJ Art 27A running into the tweeter and mid of a YG Sonja 2.3. It sounded lovely on small ensembles, voices and non-percussive instruments. He has a PS Audio BHK 250 amp for piano, rock and orchestra/opera. Well the CJ sounded very warm with lesser resolution than the BHK. The latter has NOS input tubes and has a dynamic and wide open sound although not ideal for voices. So, he has two separate sounding amps (sold the CJ, bought a highly modified Dynaco ST 70) in a tri-amped system (bass and subs have big Class D amps). He listens to music on each amp dependent on the type of music. This appears similar to prof choice of using the clean and clear wide open sound of the Benchmark L4 and the more seductive, warm albeit more distorted sound of the CJ preamp. That’s an easier choice than maintaining separate speakers/rooms to do the same.

Luckily, I have cool running Class A/B 125 watt voltage regulated monoblock tube amps that play anything and most speakers (I haven’t tried them on impedances below 2 ohms but they will play well with 85 db speakers). The funny thing is that my 2nd system amp, a voltage regulated highly modified Dynaco 70 35 watts has great control versus my back-up to the 2nd system which is an EAR 890, a class A zero global feedback, super heater/hot running 70 amp which can’t control 3 12" woofers per side. Sounds great on the Signature IIIs 3 10" woofers.

I own two other DACs purchased when I switched from the EAR Acute (2005), the COS Engineering D1v ($9000) and D2v ($5000) retail. They are gorgeous units which even my cable/equipment manufacturing friend says are also exceptionally built. However, they have a 1 second delay algorithm which blurs and expands the sound and a bypass which is relatively dry sounding.

The D1 is like the Benchmark L4 to a great extent. It is so clean and clear in bypass mode with wide frequency response, wide soundstage, dynamic. BUT-it lacks 3-D quality (minimal depth) and has a sort of sterile sound (missing body but great tonal quality). This is what it also sounded like on 3 other systems and none of my friends liked it compared to the D2v which has only a single linear power supply, single transformer, etc. compared to the beautiful D1v. It has a warm, lush sound like a CJ pre-amp. It has more limited bass and rolled off highs, less open but oh so sweet for voices and acoustic instruments. I intend to sell both now as I bought the super modified Benchmark HDR1 DAC which obliterates those two DACs and sounds like 5 figure DACs like my friend’s Ultradac ($23K), maybe better. Cost-$800 for a clean used unit and $800 in parts and labor.

P.S. I tried a dozen different transports on the COS units. The Benchmark sounded better on the three I kept by a mile. The COS units had the same sound profile on ever transport, the Benchmark shows the significant differences.

@axo1989  I've been collecting/listening to LPs for 60 years.  Digital playback has evolved to be tremendously captivating, often equal to the best vinyl.  Unless there are some performances/music that you find you can only obtain on vinyl (about 30-35% of my collection), you might prefer putting all your eggs in the digital domain.  Also, analog is not as easy to use and maintain but you probably know that. 

Same with CDs versus streaming.  At least half of my CDs will never show up streamed (1000+ private label vocals, violin and piano CDs) and many of the other 50% are not presented in as good mastering on-line.   

holmz , I thought everyone here knew how the virtual systems page works, my bad :).

It’s OK - I believe that it works different on an iPad than a computer browser.

As for measurements, I am not against measurements, I thought posting them would be interesting if we are discussing measurements any way right.

Correct.

I found Amir’s many considered comments very informative and valuable. And now they are all forever gone at the whim of AG.

This has happened many times before on this forum.

…

Yep - It is hard to see and witness thoughtful threads, albeit with some divisiveness, get deleted out of hand… seemingly on a whim.

@fleschler

However, the older DACs can be upgraded to have that 3 dimensional, full bodied and warmer sound with modification of parts. The engineering is sound as is the basic construction.

I didn’t know that. You have previously commented on a recently deleted thread on how components (eg, an amp made by Benchmark) may be upgraded from stock, and this is always intriguing.

@kota1 

we are all willing to help here, start a new thread, post your concerns, we are there for you bro, no worries :)

Sounds like you work for the government.

@holmz 

Yep - It is hard to see and witness thoughtful threads, albeit with some divisiveness, get deleted out of hand… seemingly on a whim.

Well it is disrespectful toward those who put any effort into the thread, certainly.

Fyi it's still there at the link in the email notifications, just removed from the tech-talk index. Maybe the cleaners arrive later.

@fleschler 

Unless there are some performances/music that you find you can only obtain on vinyl (about 30-35% of my collection), you might prefer putting all your eggs in the digital domain.

Some electronic and independent artists I like release on vinyl stuff that isn't streamed, which is why the thought occurs to me. More physical stuff in my life I don't need right now though.

@axo1989

Well it is disrespectful toward those who put any effort into the thread, certainly.

Utterly disrespectful and unethical. A thousand plus comments, some of which were reference standard.

My opinion - this is not a site where anyone would wish to spend much time constructing thoughtful and educational posts given that thread was deleted without explanation or consultation.

Is it the wish of AG owners to just attract lowest common denominator chaff?

@noske No, that was the Benchmark DAC HDR-1. I have never heard their amps although two of my friends had borrowed them and they felt a lack of attachment despite the clean, clear, dynamic sound. I do not know which models.

The thread/forum is not deleted, it was closed to additional comments. You can still access it in the search bar in the Audiogon forum above.  Yours was the last of 1,312 comments on 27 pages.  

Utterly disrespectful and unethical.

It is a forum that is a business, so it is not an enterprise rooted in, or devoted to, ethics.

@fleschler

The thread/forum is not deleted, it was closed to additional comments. You can still access it in the search bar in the Audiogon forum above.

It’s closed but also hidden: you can’t find it by browsing the forum heading index. It’s not deleted (currently) so still exists at the relevant URL and returns a result to matching search criteria.

@holmz

It is a forum that is a business, so it is not an enterprise rooted in, or devoted to, ethics.

Unless you are a libertarian, neo-liberal or similar, ethics can be applied to business dealings: "rooted in" or "devoted to" is a bit of a straw man wrt @noske’s post. People have different ethics of course, so there’s room for debate there.

@axo1989 I don’t know, I just pulled it up typing Audio Science Review and both of my forums popped up, I chose one and it opened. I also did a Chrome Google search and typed Audio Science Review Audiogon. Again, it opened up.

I wouldn’t say it’s hidden. Maybe I’m misunderstanding.  Maybe you mean under it's posted category, Tech Talk (it is missing there).

@fleschler we're basically describing the same thing. You can find it via a search query (using the site search engine or an external one) but it has (presumably) been removed from the Tech Talk index (so you can't find it by browsing recent threads in the index, even going back to other entries before that thread closed or opened). In other words, an additional effect beyond simply closing the thread (whether this is a manual or automatic step following closing the thread, I can't say, of course). Anyway, quite disappointing to see that occur without a moderator or site manager explanation/statement.

Unless you are a libertarian, neo-liberal or similar, ethics can be applied to business dealings: "rooted in" or "devoted to" is a bit of a straw man wrt @noske’s post. People have different ethics of course, so there’s room for debate there.

I suppose so.
But AG is a business, and they can run it and their forum any way that they see fit.

if it was a forum with the stated purpose of audio with fair and varied representation, then they would not likely trim the outline voices.

As it is a business that owns the forum, they are more driven by capitalist theories than libertarian, communist or socialist perspectives. (IME)
Of course I could be wrong, but that is my impression.

@fleschler

I just pulled it up typing Audio Science Review and both of my forums popped up

Thankyou, this is correct. I use MS Edge. I was misguided and incorrect in saying that the 1000+ post thread was deleted. Just shifted such that it is no longer displayed easily as it was before it was closed, which confused my three neurons.

Phew.

@noske 

I use MS Edge. I was misguided and incorrect

uhhhh, weren't you the guy posting about your high IQ? You can't work a browser? Right...