Audio Science Review = Rebuttal and Further Thoughts

@thyname 

By the way, are you THE Herb Reichert?

Not if the misused apostrophe is any indication. The real Mr Reichert is an excellent writer.

@thyname like @djones51 I very much enjoy @prof’s posts as MH at ASR.

Speaking of identities, I recall someone posting as audio2design at ASR (they’re on my ignore list there, probably not a big surprise).

@fleschler thanks for hosting the afterparty ...

@kota1

@prof if this is a rant, we are used to your rants by now. If this is a discussion please post your system photos, components, and measurements in your profile.

Where do you post these? I can’t see anything separate (from regular posts) in the way of profile posts when I go to your profile, but I may be missing something or looking in the wrong place.

For example, I checked out an 'end game" thread you started that was listed there. That wasn't it. Tangentially, shame you didn't buy those Gallo's on Mapleshade, I fancied that setup myself.

@kota1 

To see a members system  from a thread just click on their handle/name in a post and click "details" in the drop down menu. You will be taken to their profile and if they have posted a system it will be linked right there.

Thanks. Yes I can "systems" briefly appear on your page before it vanishes. I may have my browser locked down too hard, or macOS/Safari may not be agreeable. I might try a bit later on a Windows VM ...

@milpai

Have you ever noticed any system posted by the so called measurement folks? I don’t doubt that some of them might have actually some good components. I feel it must be because they believe in measurements, they simply purchased a pair of speaker, some components and plopped them in some corner or even worse, who knows.

I don’t know if careful setup is part of their system implementation process. Actually placement is the only measurement I do in my system. Takes me days sometimes when I fine tune with my ears. But when you purchase a pair of loudspeaker based on driver measurements (parts measurement, not sum of whole speaker), then I guess placement would not matter.

I don’t know if I fully qualify (I do like to see measurements but I’d baulk at buying an amp or speaker without listening). But setup measurements are totally useful and necessary in my book.

I bought new speakers last year (Audio Physic Codex, replacing Tempo) put them where the old ones were. Had a decent listen first and made some notes. Bass had a boom but mid-bass was dry. Midrange maybe too forward but along with treble it’s clear and really pretty nice. Toed them in a bit.

Ran measuring app (Fuzzmeasure with the mic at listening position aka LP) with triple sweeps on left then right speakers. Nasty null 70-80 Hz (predicted coincidence of lateral and oblique modes per Amcoustics room model) obvious peak at 50 Hz (ditto, from the second long mode) and a few high-Q suckouts up to Schroeder (~300 Hz) bringing overall mid-bass energy down (explains ’boom’ and ’dry’). Marked out the floor at 200 mm steps and moved speakers toward the side wall, measuring each step. The null was mitigated (as you’d expect) but treble started to roll off a bit > 10 kHz, so four steps sideways then one step back. Similar stepping toward the back wall with no difference to the bass boom (as you’d expect, needs a metre or more in the other direction at that wavelength really but not enough room in the loft for that) but treble picked up again.

Adjusted toe-in to face LP. Stereo image is pretty nice (as expected from Audio Physic spaced wide and aimed properly). Toed-in to cross in front of LP but lost some soundstage width so back to aiming at me. Good so far. That leaves the 50 Hz peak and the 100-300 Hz range to fill in bit and match 1 kHz level. That’s what DSP is for so run Sonarworks (~ 40 sweeps around the listening position) and apply the classic B&K 1974 curve. Boom gone, nice subtle balancing of midbass warmth and a little bit of excess gone from the midrange. Stereo image focus improves as well. Looking and sounding pretty good now.

No one has to follow my methods of course, but they work for me. Why futz around in the dark? All the positive sonics of the gear but mitigate some negative impacts of the room (there’s more to that story but another time). There’s no contradiction in my mind between useful setup measurements and nice audio gear.

I’m not sure I’d do a profile either, I tend to put as little information as possible into online repositories when I’m not the paying client.

If it helps to contextualise, my source is usually Apple Music on M2 MacBook Pro > asynchronous USB audio over Apple Thunderbolt Pro cable to exaSound e68 DAC > SWAMP Premium Mini XLR to Krell KAV-2250 > Analysis Plus Black Oval 12 cable to above-mentioned AP Codex sitting on AP mag-lev feet.

In audiophile style I’ve even checked cable details for all ya’ll.

Oh nearly forgot the Teddy Pardo power supply for the DAC (couldn't come at the standard wall-wart). Also amusingly, the Apple cable cost just a bit more per metre than the Analysis Plus. But it has excellent haptics.

@prof 

I listen to records more than digital these days and prefer not to digitize my analog system.  If only out of conceptual purity :-)

I do understand this. Perhaps when my life is less messy I'll try vinyl.

@fleschler 

Unless there are some performances/music that you find you can only obtain on vinyl (about 30-35% of my collection), you might prefer putting all your eggs in the digital domain.

Some electronic and independent artists I like release on vinyl stuff that isn't streamed, which is why the thought occurs to me. More physical stuff in my life I don't need right now though.

@fleschler we're basically describing the same thing. You can find it via a search query (using the site search engine or an external one) but it has (presumably) been removed from the Tech Talk index (so you can't find it by browsing recent threads in the index, even going back to other entries before that thread closed or opened). In other words, an additional effect beyond simply closing the thread (whether this is a manual or automatic step following closing the thread, I can't say, of course). Anyway, quite disappointing to see that occur without a moderator or site manager explanation/statement.

@kota1

I would always try and get the room first, the speaker placement second, the power third, the IC’s 4th and NOW you should be able to actually discern the difference a quality component makes.

I think this is absolutely the correct order to do things. There’s a bit of re-iteration of the whole cycle I guess, at least for me as I learned/experienced more of amp-speaker-room interaction.

@axo1989 , your post is very helpful, I like how you test and move, test and move and then DSP is used to fine tune. So sad how many people think DSP is all you need but when you do the heavy lifting it will really be able to do the best job possible.

Glad it made sense. I tried DSP first a while back but learned (for example) you can’t just pour power into a serious null. Adding a Krell helped (even a baby one) but drivers have limits. DSP gain increases distortion of course so you want to get as far as you can before that.

This time when I did listening I used my usual music but also stepped test tones. When it got to that 70-80 Hz null in the original position it sounded like a giant grabbed the speaker by the throat and squeezed, Move the speaker out of the giant's reach, it needs to breathe.

@holmz 

Yep - It is hard to see and witness thoughtful threads, albeit with some divisiveness, get deleted out of hand… seemingly on a whim.

Well it is disrespectful toward those who put any effort into the thread, certainly.

Fyi it's still there at the link in the email notifications, just removed from the tech-talk index. Maybe the cleaners arrive later.

@fleschler

The thread/forum is not deleted, it was closed to additional comments. You can still access it in the search bar in the Audiogon forum above.

It’s closed but also hidden: you can’t find it by browsing the forum heading index. It’s not deleted (currently) so still exists at the relevant URL and returns a result to matching search criteria.

@holmz

It is a forum that is a business, so it is not an enterprise rooted in, or devoted to, ethics.

Unless you are a libertarian, neo-liberal or similar, ethics can be applied to business dealings: "rooted in" or "devoted to" is a bit of a straw man wrt @noske’s post. People have different ethics of course, so there’s room for debate there.

@holmz 

 

I suppose so.
But AG is a business, and they can run it and their forum any way that they see fit.

if it was a forum with the stated purpose of audio with fair and varied representation, then they would not likely trim the outline voices.

Yes, I expect you are right there.

@noske

Please share with the community what that comment was, and the context.

Given the over 1,300 comments on that thread, it must have been quite an achievement should your belief be correct.

Haha dial back that devastating wit, destroyer of threads. If you are from Oz, I know it’s entirely normal. In fact, we are sarcastic with people we like, we are extra polite to people we can’t abide. I’m extra polite with Amir, for example.

@jerryg123

I’m from Oz but went to high school in US. Humour can pretty different (we follow UK and US and our own which is often dry/sarcastic) so I wouldn’t consider it an insult from @noske. At least not one worth that response. Otoh US humour is often overstated, so maybe you are just doing that. 😀

Don't worry mate, I'll be extra polite to you from now on. 😂

@kota1 

my offer stands, just post your system, pics, and measurements in your profile page, NP.

Directed at another poster I know, but I'm having no luck with that virtual system thing showing up. Tried stock Chrome on Windows and it still appears momentarily on refresh than vanishes.

@prof

The ironic thing is I’m one of the very, very few ASR members who has actually posted detailed reports of (my) blind tests.

That is amusing actually, I wonder why that is ... 🤔

@prof

I think it’s understandable to a degree. For one thing, doing blind tests can be a hassle, sometimes totally impractical (speakers especially). And generally speaking I think the members there can and do rely on the relevant tests having been done by other parties. For instance all the research by Toole/Olive/Harman Kardon et al, for selecting the relevant measurements in speakers. And also they can look to measurements of DACs and amplifiers to see that distortion levels are below known thresholds of audibility. So in many cases they don’t really need to perform their own blind tests, depending on what approach they take to buying equipment.

On the other hand, it is fairly galling to be disparaged as some pure subjectivist-in-sheep’s-clothing by folks there who haven’t really "put up or shut up" themselves in terms of personally having experience blind testing.

Don't read to much into my comment but yes you've covered it. DBT aren't convenient and insisting others do them when you don't yourself is bit disingenuous.

The two reasons they may not be needed are 1) difference is non-existent, and 2) difference is obvious. In-between however we have the uncanny valley.

@holmz

Cable risers also make a statement, but I would personally avoid them in my system.

I’ve often thought ASR is missing out on awesome merch possibilities by not releasing a line of Pink Panther™ cable risers.

@kota1

Think of the paradigm shift, manufacturers quickly figure out the cheapest way to make a graph look good because their market will convince themselves it sounds good because of the graph, no matter what.

Topping, surely. Sanctified by Mejidimehr-Al-Sinad, cheap enough to impulse buy with a click.