Audio Research discontinuing lower lines components?
taters"Jhconner, That's a 40 percent price raise in 8 years." Taters, we get that you really don't like ARC - but that doesn't excuse your fuzzy math. The Ref 3 was introduced in 2004 at $10K. A Ref 6 in 2016 is 14K. Calculating simple interest, that's about a 3.3 percent a year price increase. When you consider that the Ref 6 offers a reported improvement over the Ref 3, that's actually a very modest price hike. Of course, you don't care for ARC, so probably whatever they charge is too much for you. |
First off, I don't dislike ARC. I actually own it myself. I grew up with ARC when a man with a decent job could afford to buy it. Nowadays they have forgotten about the people that made them successful in the first place. Today they are only Interested in catering to the people with deep pockets. The only way an average person can buy it nowadays is to purchase it used. I am not saying used is a bad thing. It was just nice to be able to purchase it new at one time. |
taters"First
off, I don't dislike ARC. I actually own it myself. I grew up with ARC
when a man with a decent job could afford to buy it. Nowadays they have
forgotten about the people that made them successful in the first place." Taters, I already did the math for you to show that ARC's prices haven't increased substantially when inflation is taken into account. ARC gear was never inexpensive. You say you own some ARC gear ... so tell us: What do you have? Did you buy it new? If you tell me what you have, I'll be happy to do the math for you. Again. Because there's just no evidence that ARC has "forgotten about the people that made them successful." And I say that as an owner of both new and older ARC gear. |
You are comparing the price of a REF-3 to the REF-30? Ha ... that's not a fair comparison. The 2008 price of a REF-3 needs to be compared to the price of a new REF-6. Why? Why is it not fair? Look, this is simple, not complicated. Throw out all of the model names that have inundated the market in the last 8 years and ask two simple questions. 1) How much did ARC's most expensive preamp sell for in 2008? (A:$10K) 2) How much does ARC's most expensive preamp sell for today? (A:$30K) All the rest is BS. You can't do this, you can't do that. Why not? Again, I am not bashing ARC here. ALL high end manufacturers have followed this route. My favorite manufacturer, VAC, even released an uber-expensive Statement line a couple years back with a $50K preamp. I would not expect that to not be compared to their top price preamp of 8 years ago, which sold for around $15K. Most expensive = most expensive. All the rest is glitter and distraction. Try to focus on the bottom line, the price it takes to buy the best. The high end companies themselves are not to blame, don't shoot the messenger. They are just following the lead of the market. In essence, they are simply doing what they are being told to do, create more expensive gear. |
Hmm I'm not sure the average person was ever ARCs target. It's always been high end and considered a reach for most. Still a lot of people like it enough to take the plunge. I've never considered ten top of line stuff but would not rule out lower end still. My local dealer offered Roguevasva lower cost option to ARC and like ARC I've never heard a bad Rogue demo. |
jmcgrogan2 .. So, when you go to the Chevrolet dealership do you not see the increased value between a new top of the line family sedan and a new Z1 Corvette? How about when you go to a Ford dealership ... no difference between the family station wagon and the new F-40? How about a Porsche dealership ... no difference between a Boxter and a twin turbo 911? And you see no difference between a REF-3, a new REF-6 and a new REF-30?????? Just asking ... |
oregonpapa, Poor choices for an analogy, since in 2008 both the Corvette and the 911 twin turbo were part of the Chevrolet and Porsche lines respectively, and were more expensive than a sedan and the Boxster back then too. . I don’t believe at any point in time that a top family sedan was the most expensive Chevy, or a Boxster was the most expensive Porsche. I don’t understand how you ARC fans cannot understand "most expensive model". Don’t even mention any model numbers at all. Just most expensive preamp, or amp. It’s so simple, how can you not see it??? Stop being so defensive, and just open your eyes. Again, I say that this is not ARC alone, everyone is doing it. Can I not compare Nordost Odin cables to Nordost Valhalla cables because it is not a fair comparison, because Odin is in a different league? They are both cables. Can I not compare the VAC Statement preamp to the VAC Renaissance MK. II Signature because the Statement is in another league? They are both preamplifiers. Is it unfair to compare Tara Labs new Grandmaster Evolution cables to the Zero Gold series? They are both cables. |
so what you are saying then it fine to look at a $1.7 million LaFerrari and compare it to a $300K f12? I suppose you can compare your flagship to your "spare no expenses" model in terms of performance, but pricing i'm not so sure. especially in light of the "spare no expenses." I hope you aren't a lawyer... |
jmcgrogan .. My eyes are open. I agree "everyone" is doing it (raising prices). That would include Costco's meat department and audiophile fuses being sold at $120 per pop. I've pointed it out before ...its called inflation ... or more dollars chasing the same amount of goods and services. Can we expect anything else after paying for a war that cost a trillion dollars, a 700 billion financial sector bailout and another trillion for a stimulus package, all without raising taxes? What does the term "quantitative easing" mean to you?? If the economic system is flooded with new money without taking old money out of circulation, does that not dilute the worth of every dollar already in existence? If each dollar is reduced in value, doesn't it make sense that it takes more dollars to manufacture, and subsequently to buy the same product year over year? If we want to see a real price disparity, let's go back to ARC's first preamp, the SP-3, and compare that price with the price of ARC's flagship at 30K. Oh, the horrors! |
I can understand some of the disappointment and anger directed at ARC. They are not the same company as they used to be. The new management has clearly moved the company towards being a more luxury brand and wants to charge higher prices then before. It ain't about inflation! They want to compete against real expensive components and to do that they feel they have to drop what was their entry level line. Notice that ARC's parent company is not pursuing this same strategy with Sonus Faber. Will ARC succeed at higher prices? Who knows, but if they come up with a slogan "Not your father's Audio Research", then say bye-bye to one of the great audiophile brands. |
Have to adjust your figures a bit, Oregon. The war’s unpaid cost has been four trillion with another two trillion projected in ongoing commitments to veterans, overseas training forces, drones, etc. They lowered taxes on the wealthy and suggested we go shopping to help out. The stimulus was a bargain for America. The bailout was a crime against Americans. Go shopping for high-end, my fellow audiophiles. |
Lalitk, Why would ARC let the dealer make more profit on a reference piece of 30k than they do. The dealers buy at 40 percent of the retail price. So if the retail is 30k and the dealer get a 40 percent discount after that there cost would be 18k. So on a 30k sale the dealer would make 12k. And then you said ARC produces the piece for 12k. If your numbers are correct the dealer would make twice the profits on the piece than the manufacturer. It doesn't work that way. If the dealer is making 12k on the piece rest assured the manufacturer is making just as much or more. |
Interesting points and views. All that I can say is that I liked ARC MUCH more when it was a stand alone company, designing and selling great audio electronics for music lovers. Why is it a good idea to have an Italian based corporation owning lots of American audio companies? Answer is, It's NOT a good idea and all the audiophiles will suffer for it. Too bad and too sad. |
stickman451466 posts02-01-2016 9:16pmInteresting points and views. All that I can say is that I liked ARC MUCH more when it was a stand alone company, designing and selling great audio electronics for music lovers. Why? To my ear, latest amp and pre are their BEST by a wide margin and I’m a music lover. Why is it a good idea to have an Italian based corporation owning lots of American audio companies? Answer is, It’s NOT a good idea and all the audiophiles will suffer for it. Too bad and too sad. Why is it a bad idea? ARC sound quality, customer service and build quality are 2nd to none. Doesn’t matter to me. This is a global economy. My only wish is clarify Galileo position vs Reference. Now Ref 6 has Galileo design is very confusing. |
I have an LS 17SE which when I bought it here I was paying to much for it, but I love it and did look at the LS27 here thinking about upgrading because mine is loosing value (there is one for sale for 1K less then what I paid - ouch). If you look at interior photos of all the LS models they all look similar except for maybe better output cap's so I wonder how much better the more expensive LS27 would be |
So, I've been reading this thread out of interest only because I was able to hear the GSi75 tube integrated paired with Wilson Audio Sabrina's several months ago and I can't get that out of my mind. This was at an audio GTG in SoCal and there were a number of participants who really liked this system. It was the least expensive system at this GTG while the most expensive was the Wilson Audio XLFs with D'Agostino separates. Nearly all other equipment in the room was Wilson/ARC though. I've heard much more expensive Wilson/ARC systems in the past and at this GTG but not really cared for them, especially at their advanced pricing. But the GSi75 tube integrated with Wilson Audio Sabrina's on the other hand was very nice indeed; musical and lovely to behold. But at $16k each for these two pieces, I'll have to pass. Even used is a real stretch. I see where folks are coming from with this new pricing strategy, $16k for an integrated and another $16k for a small set of floor standers, that's serious $$. Oh well, now I gotta go find a more affordable new dream. |
As a Costco shopper (bought my Superbowl steaks today!) I’d like to explain the three-for-$50 steaks to ya. At this price, they were undoubtedly Prime cut and at least two inches thick (I know, Prime ain’t what it used to be). So this nice steak cost $16.67/ea. Go to your local super market and price it (if you can find Prime meat there). So here’s the thing, The frugal will take it home and cut the steak in half so now you have six prime steaks ($8.34/ea). Not out-of-line considering what it cost to feed a cow. Of course, hamburger is nice too... |
Sunil Merchant. Sunny Components Inc, USA 626-966-6259. sunnyaudiovideo.com We are an Audio Research Full Line Dealer. Audio Research Corporation has always been a Leader in building, engineering and delivering amazingly great sounding tube gear. They have always pushed the envelope when it comes to Performance Audio products. Their success has always been the Reference line of products based on Valve technology. A year ago they released upgrades on their Amplifiers and called them Special Edition or SE Versions. Their Reference 10 Pre amplifiers saw the full benefits on the improvements made on their amplifiers but the older Reference 5 SE was not able to get every single detail out of the improvements made. To fulfill the benefits of the SE version Amplifiers they went back to their Research Labs and Warren and his team worked Diligently on developing the Reference 6 Pre amplifier and the Reference Phono 3. They also introduced the Galileo series of electronics using the new KT150 Power Tubes in their GS150 Amplifiers. Going from their name, Audio Research, they are surely working on new products, ideas to improve current products and purge older designs in favor for newer and fresher looks that bring newer and younger customers. Their improvements are possible by improvements in Cable manufacturing, Power management products that improve and source players that show improvements by adding newer Chips, circuit design etc. They actively audition products that matter to them through their own sources. We at Sunny's have almost all their products in stock. |
smer319, Very nice speech and very nicely said. Going from their name, Audio Research, they are surely working on new products, ideas to improve current products and purge older designs in favor for newer and fresher looks that bring newer and younger customers.Looks like it's still didn't cover dropping manufacturing affordable components such as PH3, PH3SE, PH1, D- solid state series... |
I understand and respect the issues and feelings raised here. I do feel that there is way too much AR bashing going on here. Unless you work in AR's Accounting department, you have no idea what it costs to research, design and manufacturer equipment. Let alone stock older parts for repairs. One can speculate all they want, but, that is all it is, speculation. I believe that AR's parent company simply (probably wasn't simple) decided to discontinue the lower level (lower level, that is funny) equipment because the market simply could not support the continued manufacturing and upkeep of those components. They most definitely were not going to eliminate the upper end equipment. Auto manufacturers do this all the time. They eliminate cars that simply aren't selling like they expected them to do. I firmly believe that if AR was making the kind of money they expected on the lower level equipment, they would not have eliminated them. But, the real way to voice one's concerns is to write AR letters complaining about this. That is the only way they will pay attention to your complaints. The comparison between the most expensive back then and the most expensive now is not scientifically accurate at all. How much was a 1965 Ferrari vs a 2016 Ferrari? Not trying to start or continue an argument, but, company's will charge whatever they can charge and get away with. Some have business plans and goals, based on R&D costs, parts maintenance expenses, manufacturing equipment expenses (this is huge), company overheads, health care expenses for employees, taxes, expected number of pieces to be constructed, prototype development(really expensive and of which the costs must be recovered), etc. All of this and more is factored into the price of equipment, cars, watches, etc. Many Engineers have found this out the hard way. They didn't have a solid business plan, had no knowledge of business, only engineering and lost their shirts. I don't fault AR for doing this. It just means that I won't be able to afford their equipment unless I win the lottery or wait until they show up on the used market at a much lower price. The good thing is that AR still maintains and repairs all of their equipment, old and new. That is really saying something. Try to get an older Theta DAC repaired by Theta, they will tell you with a straight face that they won't do it. Not Theta bashing, but I have learned the hard way that certain companies won't or can't support their products later on. AR isn't one of them. I would bet you a lunch that Atmosphere will repair each and every unit they have built from day one. Companies that do that are rare. enjoy |
The world of audio is changing. On the other hand time and technique go on. But on the other hand commercial interest makes audio not always better in quality and result. Audio Reseach is in hands of an investment company. They are the owners and want to make more profit. This means that AR uses less expensive parts. This has an influence on the quality of AR. In the whole world audio is having a difficult time. In 10 years of time the market will be even a lot smaller than it is today. When we visit audio shows in Europe we see that the average age is far above 40. Younger people have other interest compared to us music and audio lovers. |
Bo, The world of audio will becume MUCH easier if you'll bring back era of Pioneer SX980, Sansui A9090, ADC and other pioneers of high definition audio. Also needed to bring down the percentage of robbed and constantly depleting middle class for purpose of aggressive imperialistic endeavors of big corporations in the Middle East that apparently choose to strip the tax dollar to sponsor robberies and murders outside of their homeland. In addition to these government spending there's huge additional layer of internal law enforcement agencies so to "control" ones who gradually becomes poor, hungry, angry and hopeless. |
