Audio Mirror vs Prima Luna tube DAC

look at the MHDT DACs.  very musical

Unfortunately there does not appear to be many internet savvy users of the PL. I also considered this comparison about a year ago, but could only find one or two user reports of the PL dac. Haven't really seen anything new pop up in the meantime either.  Obviously the AM is well reviewed here and regularly recommended for good reason.

I didn't even know PL made a DAC. Brands that come to mind for me are MHDT, Audio Mirror, Denafrips, Audio g-d, more... but not PL.

Thanks for these responses.  I will have to do a bit more work checking on the MHDT, Denafrips and Audio GD.  I note that these latter companies are in Asia.....any support experiences good or bad?  Also I listen mostly to acoustic jazz and vocals (Blue Note, Impulse, Riverside) and some rock if that helps with recommendations.
Thanks again.

The PL Evo is made in china. The Audio Mirror in the USA. I own the AM and not looking past that DAC. 

Based on a review, TAS or Stereophile can't remember, the PL seems to be a great option, however somewhat more expensive. 

Given the PL is dealer distributed and the AM is factory direct few would get a chance to audition both.

Thanks again all. A very knowledgeable friend has recommended the Schiit Yggdrasil as a SS alternative at about the same price point as the AM.  Any experiences with this DAC or comparisons?

Thanks and Roger that.

A very knowledgeable friend has recommended the Schiit Yggdrasil as a SS alternative at about the same price point as the AM.

I wouldn’t include the Yggy given what you’re looking for as it’s neither tubed nor NOS that I think will both help in getting you “closer to vinyl.”  Plus, as good as it is, reviews don’t indicate it produces the type of sound you’re looking for.  For that reason I’d skew toward AM, MHDT, Audio GD, and the like.  FWIW, and best of luck in your search. 

Thanks again.  After doing a bit more reading I agree and am circling around the AM.  However, (and does this happen to everyone just when they think they've made a decision?) I have been reading about the Denafrips Pontus which, while not tube, does offer both OS and NOS options and has received some very good and recent reviews.  I may order both and audition, depending on return and restocking fees.  Thanks.

PL Dac vs AM Dac.....anybody?

LOL thanks for the reminder.  This is where I started.....we've come full circle!

There's a review of the Tubadour SE III using the Aurender N100H as source and compared to a Moon 380D, so it might be helpful for the OP. Jump to page 2 of the review to get into the comparison.

https://audioresurgence.com/2020/05/audio-mirror-tubadour-iii-se-dac-review.html

Thanks very much rooze.  Interesting, helpful and relevant review. Now if someone would only compare something with PL..... 

I have both the PrimaLuna EVO 100 & AudioMirro Tubadour III SE DACs in house for an actual listening test. Much research pointed me towards
R2R NOS ladder DAC and tubes. Already own PrimaLuna HP integrated and love it, so PrimaLuna was a front runner DAC. Looking for warm, full bodied sound.

I live near Vlad, AudioMirror owner. Have local dealer with PrimaLuna in stock. Both were kind enough to loan me a DAC to demo. 10 year old Rega DAC will also be compared.

Will post listening results soon. 3 people will judge.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/9757

Thanks Jerry, I ended up with an AM and am happy with it. However, it has revealed some features of the Aurender that aren’t so great. Saving for an Innuos Zenith. So it goes. Still interested in the comparison when you post. Thanks again.

I'd be interested in your listening impressions Jerry. It's true the PrimaLuna DAC doesn't have a lot of fan fare around it. I'd chalk it up to a lot of completion at that price point, and the hardwired clock tube. I almost took a chance on one since I own the PL Evo 300 Power amp which I'm very impressed with.

In the end, I felt it was too great a risk, and went with the current flavor of the month (Holo May) knowing I could easily sell it it doesn't work out.

I look forward to your review.

First testing is complete.
Rega 2010 Dac, PrimaLuna EVO 100, AudioMirror III SE into McIntosh MA6600 integrated into Magnepan 1.7 speakers.
Cables into PrimaLuna and AudioMirror were Monoprice.
Cables into Rega were Auqioquest Cinamon (supposedly an advantage, but nothing I’ve ever noticed).

Figured PrimaLuna would win since I have PrimaLuna Dialogue HP integrated and really like it. Initial impression was AudioMirror was best, other two pretty much the same. Felt AudioMirror was louder so loaded SPL meter onto iPhone.

Picked well recorded artists (Steely Dan, Dire Straits, Fleetwood Mac, etc) and took song snippets via iTunes and put on repeat. Measured DB via SPL and adjusted volume level and flipped amongst the DACs (no it was not blind). The Rega & PrimaLuna were pretty much equal in DB, the AudioMirror needed to be adjusted down a bit.

The volume down on the AudioMirror pretty much evened things out.
No clear winner.

Moving gear over to PrimaLuna Dialogue HP Integrated for testing. This is the amplifier where the new DAC I purchase will actually be used. The McIntosh system is solid state, the Rega DAC will stay there.  Testing will be completed tonight and I will post results.

PrimaLuna amplifier testing complete. The same - no clear winner that I could discern when SPL meter used. Other two listeners said the same about the McIntosh test, but were NOT there for the PrimaLuna test.

We are all in mid to upper 50s, so hearing may be affecting results.
I may bring in a cheap Schiit and Schiit Gungnir to compare against my Rega DAC. That is as far as I will take this test, if I even go that far.  I may or may not post those results if and when I do such test(s).

During the tests, I listened very closely hoping to hear differences.  That is NOT how I normally listen to music.  
I just want to relax.
Sure I like details, but am more concerned about overall 'musicality' of the music.  I would prefer a non-harsh, non-fatiguing (aka: headache inducing) sound.   I could not hear any noticeable differences that made any one of the 3 DACs stand out. 


As always, YMMV...

Hmmm, I upgraded from the Rega DAC-R to the AM III SE and there was a significant difference. Just a suggestion but maybe there is a component or cable in your ststem that is normalizing the sound? 

Format is Redbook cd ripped to an external hard drive in .aiff format. Played back via iTunes into one of the 3 DACs hooked into the integrated amplifier. I use the Mac to select which DAC to use as playback device. I'm using USB input on all 3 of the DACs.  Both AM & PL claim to have good USB input. 
Any ideas?

Just for verification I hooked up my Rotel CD player which allows my to bypass its internal DAC using 75 ohm coax digital cable.  So now the comparison was Rotel DAC vs AM DAC vs PL DAC.  Same results.  Could not tell the difference between the DACs.

I've nothing terribly insightful, but do own a couple of Vlad's older DAC endeavors and they are quite good.  The new one should be dynamite.  I've listened to the Rega and it is competent, not particularly detailed or dynamic.

I guess I'm saying something in the chain may be amiss whilst not hearing discernible differences between these seemingly quite diverse products.

Currently run a high end R2R ladder DAC and have never looked back.

Congratulations on the AM pick.  It will reveal your smart choice upon break-in.

I’ve now demo’ed a Chord Qutest against my Rega. Same result. Qutest at best matches the Rega. Rega is slightly louder which most likely gives it the advantage.  There’s really not much in the chain to go wrong (unless iTunes Player is somehow affecting things - but that's why I brought in my Rotel CD player - to rule out iTunes). 

Rega no longer makes a DAC so considered Denafrips Ares or Pontus VS Schiit Bifrost or Gungnir.  Two supposedly well respected reviewers on another thread didn't have much good to say about Denafrips, so I ruled it out.  Bifrost 4 to 6 weeks out for shipping (I could see that extending in these times), so I pulled the trigger on the well reviewed Gungnir (aka: Gumby).

Really hope the Gumby betters the Rega, but I’m guessing it won’t...

Is there something wrong with the sound that you're getting now that's leading you to try all the different DACs?  

Seems like you've settled that there aren't differences in your system, so maybe the best route would be to keep buying cheaper and cheaper DACs until you find one that finally sounds worse.  Then keep the model right before that one, sell the others, and recoup your money.  

Or, if you really want to know what's possible in your system, just go ahead and get a new MSB Select.  If you can't hear that as different, then you can put the question to rest once and for all.  

Nope, nothing at all wrong with sound in my system. I have a 2nd similar system (Magnepan, PrimaLuna, Rel, Rotel cd player). I want to replace the cd player with computer/dac so I have playlist flexibility, thus the search for a 2nd DAC.

Keep reading all these online reviews of KILLER DACs (primaluna, audiomirror, denafrips, spring, etc) so thought I’d see if one of them could improve sound even more. 3 DACs reviewed made NO DIFFERENCE in sound quality- as many folks claimed.

I pulled trigger on Schiit Gumby. Should arrive this week and will demo.
Hope it tops the Rega, my guess is that to me, it won’t. I think it will sound the same as the Rega.

What really makes a difference in sound quality?
Pick your speakers 1st.
Pick your amp based on your speakers.
Get your room acoustics setup.

Turntable & cartridge differences are HUGE, but I got rid of my vinyl collection back in the 80s so I’m not going back down that road. Vinyl => too much hassle.

cal3713, you’ve got the right idea. I set a $3K ceiling and tried 2 DACs.
Lowered ceiling to $2K and tried the QuTest (often called DAC to beat under 2K). Tried QuTest and ruled it out (no difference again).

How’ed I arrive at Schiit Gumby? Just like all the others - online reviews, research.
Denafrips Ares or Pontus
VS
Schitt Bifrost or Gungnir
are my next 2 sub $2K DACs to try.

Want a silver colored DAC, that ruled out Ares.
Want the DAC within a week or two, that ruled out the Bifrost.
Pontus coming from overseas with MASSIVE amount of hardware parts.
Hardware looks impressive, why so many parts (others noted this).
Schiit made in USA, well reviewed, readily available, & cheaper.

I know someone that I think will loan me a cheaper Schiit model so I can compare it to the Gumby (not sure what model he’s got).

The vast majority of online reviews are from folks with some vested interest in whatever DAC they are reviewing- paid reviewer who's not going to trash a product OR already own the product. 

Torq & Hands over at superbestaudiofriends seem like valid reviewers.
Not every DAC gets a good/great review.  

Same with AmirM over at audiosciencereview.  This guy seems to be loved by some, hated by many.  He seems to just base his reviews on measurements, not actual listening tests. 

Hands review of Denafrips Pontus:
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/denafrips-pontus-dac-impressions.5086/
The Denafrips importer pulled his DACs after getting bad reviews from Torq and Hands (see the 2nd post from Alvin, Vinshine Audio & US imported of Denafrips products).

Hands review of Audio-GD19:
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/audio-gd-singularity-19-dac-comprehensive-re...

Thanks for the information, I will try to figure it out for more. Keep sharing such informative post.

Best bang for my buck I ever spent on audio related stuff (a book):
https://www.getbettersound.com/store

I have no affiliation with the author Jim Smith. For less than $50 his book is a no brainer.
Smith’s advice: other than speakers, your ROOM makes the biggest impact on sound quality.
Stop chasing components- get your room setup as correctly as possible.

@jerry2021  You're always evaluating a system... and how different components sound within it. 

I personally auditioned a number of different DACs at the same time within my system and did indeed hear differences, as did a blinded co-listener.  We both agreed on the winner, which wasn't the most expensive or the cheapest.  I did not level match though, so maybe we just both picked the loudest (or softest, or whatever).    

If you can't hear the differences, there's no reason to chase the dragon, but that also doesn't mean that others aren't hearing them.  

People on this site like to state that product X is better than Y and pretend that's always the case, when in fact X was better than Y "to their ears in their system (and in their room)."  

In your system and to your ears, X = Y.  There's nothing wrong with that at all.

Agreed.

Only way one will know for sure is bring DACs into one’s own home and compare. Figure out sound you like (warm & lush VS detailed & analytical or whatever), set a price limit, use other peoples’ recommendations to narrow down your list, and then bring a few DACs in house to demo with YOUR own ears.

Agree with just about everything Jerry has said here.

Re : (warm & lush VS detailed & analytical or whatever)....will also add that often in my experience I am giving up one of these qualities for another , usually in the dacs implementation.

Re Primaluna gear...

Some general comments with regard to gear:

Their stuff is well built, solid, and reliable, akin to the automobile industry of today.

So reliable and well designed, your inclined to take it for granted. Very clean build. If they show pictures of the insides on their website, then companies are proud of it and have nothing to hide.

...And a company like Atmasphere fir instance goes even gurther with a timelapsed video if a complete construction