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The Russian euro15k Wagner Audio Dream Dac dac also uses this volume system for going to poweramp direct. https://www.monoandstereo.com/2016/06/wagner-audio-labs-super-r2r-dac.html Cheers George |
George, not sure where your list of "all those preamps" came from but of those, the Khozmo (i.e., Hattor) is the only one I have owned. I do own McCormack's TLC-1 passive/buffered stage that Steve has upgraded to a much higher level that he calls
"very close to my VRE-1." When I owned that Metrum Adagio DAC with internal VC, I modified the TLC by taking the Shallco VC switch out of the circuit (replaced it by soldering two AN Tantalum silver resistors to the board) thus turning it into a unity gain buffer w/o VC. I did that because, to me, the Metrum DAC sounded noticeably better with the active buffer in the chain, even though the DAC output 4V. I have since moved to Mojo Audio's EVO B4B 21 DAC, which does not have a VC so I added the passive Khozmo unit, which provides remote VC, balance control, and a nice visual display. I have tried running my system with just the Khozmo passive unit but I much prefer the sound with the TLC active buffer also in the playback chain. |
"Since it is equipped with high-class preamp, this player may also double as the heart of a small, but very fine high-end system." Odd that Burmester 089 should have been great direct, as recommended by the manufacturer. As it’s output is a 60 position VC active preamp with a switchable tape input also, as these spec show with 4v low output impedance you defiantly don’t need to run a preamp into another preamp with even more gain from the second preamp. Their must be another reason, preferred additional preamp, coloration perhaps https://www.i-fidelity.net/en/test-reports/high-end/burmester-089/labreport.html Output voltage: 4.1 V Channel deviation: 0.035 dB Output resistance: 256 Ω DC output offset: < 0.5 mV Cheers George |
George, you may look at the description of Burmester 001 player, I believe you will read similar text as of 089. In review in Stereophile (if that mattters) the reviewer concluded, that no matter how good the player sounded connected directly, it sounds better (for him, at least) with its preamp (011). Is the difference worth 16t usd (in Us, in that time) everyone should decide for himself. I had both pieces, together with 956 mk2 amp. Same thing with 089. Its just sounds better with Burmester preamp I respect your technical knowlegde, but reading some of your posts I have noticed that you have few 'fixations' (in lack of better word, as english is not mine mother language) I can understand that somebody likes one type of sound better than the other, but neither point of view should be dogmatic. Your personal feeling when you listen without preamp, or with passive preamp is just that, a personal perspective. For example,many times I have read your preference toward R2R dacs, but imho the Burmester 089 sound better, with 1794 BB (which is hybrid,as I understand) than the Burmester 001 whuch has 1704 BB, R2R configuration. Just wanted to say that one should try to have open mind (and ears) and not make conclusions based on what 'should' sound better,instead of listening first. Hope that these few words do not sound as a 'lecture', as that was not my intention, but just as reminder how unpredictable this hobby might be |
George, I am very aware that nothing that I say (or anybody else, on that matter) will change your views. However, as stated by many here (including the ones who thinks as you) there are diferent opinions, expirinces or tastes (called them as you like, even 'objective' or 'subjective') that will differ than yours. I would not dismiss any of those just because they are not the same as mine ( or yours in this case) perspective. |
@vanson1 It’s been already answered on an earlier thread which has substantial content: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/how-important-is-the-pre-amp Check out the PS Audio link where owner Paul was a staunchly in the camp of “no” until it was proven to him to a “yes” |
You have to take what’s said with a grain of salt anyone that has $$$ to be made out of something. (and no I don’t own Lightspeed Attenuator anymore) and when I did I still always said going direct was better still. It’s said Paul backed MQA to use it, and then pulled the pin just as quickly when it lost cred. Cheers George |
I can only share my experience from what my ears have told me after experimenting on this matter. I've tried my Lumin T2 with Leedh volum control into my JC1+, I've then tried a JC2 as a pre with same source but with disabled Leedh before I went with ARC LS28 witch is where I'm at now. I can assure you that even my grandmother could tell there is a difference. I will not go into discussions if sq is coloured or not with pre but I know that I will prefer a pre any day, any week.... |
chorus670 posts10-14-2021 11:41pmNever heard a pre that "Improved" the SQ compared to "No Pre". ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WEll true and not so true. My Jadis DPL , 20+ yrs old, bought last year , now have Mundorf EVO caps and Takman Rey resistors + running Tele in the AX and AU, Tele in the cd buffer out, I'd say when I put in a Tele I note a nice nuance vs a RCA, Bugle Boy AU and AX in the slot. So there must be something said for a nuance of the pre's imput. But if the Shanling, Cayin or Jadis DAC, any of the 3 hada vol pot,, I'd dump the DPL linestage. Its really not needed and adds too much gain in the circuit for my 95db sens + 91db sens dual WBers. Bottom line. Linestage/pre are not a must have, neither a should have. If you find a tube DAC /Tube player with a vol pot, go for it and sell your linestage. |
I tried my Bricasti M3 direct in place of a Lamm L1. The noise dropped and my perception of resolution increased. The first minute I thought the change was for the better. Percussive instruments were sharply augmented over vocals (like a bad mix) and the tone was worse. While I already know the Lamm is not the standard in transparency, it sounds better. I have read similar experiences from others. You have to solve for the preamp no matter what. It makes a huge difference. |
This thread goes to show you many paths to audio satisfaction. Passives, actives, no pre, resistor based, pots, transformer coupled; seems all have their adherents. It makes sense no pre would be most transparent, resolving, the straight wire concept. But some prefer flavoring, and bit stripping can be concern. At one time or another I've tried all the above volume controls, I could see how one would prefer one over another. At present and highly likely long term, I'm keeping my present transformer coupled active pre. Adds flavor I prefer and virtually no loss of transparency, resolution. Also gives me added input for vinyl setup. |
It makes sense no pre would be most transparent, resolving, the straight wire concept.Go back earlier in this thread to see what a straight wire isn't always the most neutral. The problem is that a passive volume control isn't a bit of wire. If it were, it would not have a resistance value. Math and engineering principles are at play here- when you put a resistance in series with a source impedance which is expected to drive something to the best of its ability, its rarely a good thing. This can cause an audible and measurable loss of bass and impact. Put simply, its an example of a thing that is too simple to to its task properly. This is not to say that you can't get it to work. To do that you have to be sure that your source has a direct coupled output and is capable of driving the load (the input of the amplifier) properly. And the interconnect cables will have to be kept short, and RCA only (balanced lines can't be executed with a passive volume control and observing the balanced line standard at the same time). |
And to all, active preamps have volume controls as well, and most times not as good quality as the better passives pre's usually use. Also active pre's use many other distorting/colouring components in them. At least passive pre's usually only have a quality pot, which is why they are the closest in sound to going direct (a straight piece of wire) when used correctly. And balanced is not needed if you only use <3mts interconnect, and in many case better as the balance inputs and outputs on many pieces of equipment, are opamps to make them balanced, when their true circuit is not, so your better off using the single ended inputs on those, again a more direct path, instead of going through opamp etc for balanced Cheers George |
While I’m very much in favor of the consumer friendly policy of sticking to standards, I’m not sure that many of the benefits of balanced couldn’t still be realized if they weren’t exactly so. I think the best way to delete the pre is to go directly from the source and avoid the additional passive volume control. In such a case, I don’t see why adhering to the balanced standard would be problematic unto itself. Where I do see an issue with balanced, as opposed to single ended is at the amp inputs. Until amplifier manufactures adopt 2 to 2.2 Volt for RCA and 4 to 4.4 Volt for balanced input sensitivities for full power output. Many digital sources directly coupled to amps will often have to attenuate too much into many balanced amplifier inputs, and as such perhaps consequently run into a bit stripping issue. As it now stands, it might be better to sacrifice some of the advantages of balanced and use the RCA inputs. Hopefully this will change. I think it behooves amplifier manufactures to adopt more complimentary standards for input sensitivities. |
in the real world of rat race fatigue, pre-amps with their sound adjustments are just what the doctor ordered, the spectral tilt control in old quad pre-amps a case in point, some days you just need more mellow. some noisy old recordings could benefit from a true mono switch [discards the stereo difference signal and not just a mere fold-down] or groove selector to choose the quieter groove of a mono recording. a balance control for people with uncooperative listening room dimensions and poor/inflexible juxtaposition of listener and speakers within the room. EQ to improve listenability of subpar recordings and rooms acoustics. straight wire with gain is both a clear window AND a window in need of a shade at times. |
And to all, active preamps have volume controls as well, and most times not as good quality as the better passives pre's usually use. Also active pre's use many other distorting/colouring components in them.This entire post is false. Many active preamps employ custom multi-position switches rather than pots, built up with fancy resistors to create a volume control. MBL does this, CAT, Atma-Sphere and many others. The first 2 paragraphs thus debunked. The '<' symbol means 'less than' but I am assuming that in the quote above George meant to use the '>' symbol. The benefit of balanced operation is there even if the cable is only 6" long. Anyone familiar with motion control can tell you that... the rejection of noise induced in the cable does not matter how long the cable is. It relies on the Common Mode Rejection Ratio at the input of the receiver (amplifier). Most solid state amps made today are actually fully balanced and many of them have differential inputs. Some are executed with opamps, some are not. Opamps can have extremely high CMRR values, in excess of 120dB, and set up with unity gain they offer no coloration whatsoever. There are places where opamps are not a good idea, such as the input of a phono section (where the input circuit can be overloaded quite easily) but as an input to a solid state amp they can work quite well. Opamps made in the 1960s, maybe not so much. The main thing you might encounter is increased noise floor if a cheap opamp is used. But if a nice one is used the circuit will be quiet even on horns. We've been making fully differential balanced amps and preamps since 1987 and not used any opamps for input or output, just FWIW... George frequently quotes Nelson Pass, who is one of the top designers in high end audio today. Nelson's designs feature differential inputs without opamps for their balanced operation. His are not the only like that by any means. The last paragraph is debunked; the entire post is rubbish. |
