Would that be triggered or Triggered?
Are manufacturer AC cables good enough?
I have two PS Audio AC3 and two Pangea AC 14 cables I don't use. My thinking is that Ayre wouldn't supply cables that are inadequate for their components. Is that thinking flawed?
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486 responses Add your response
Shouldn’t it be "Dunning - Kruger"? Maybe "Dunning, Kruger"? "Dunning/Kruger"? "Dunning Kruger" just does not seem right. It seems like someone’s full name. clearthink, Why did you decide that "Confirmation bias" starts with a capital letter and "delusional snowflakes" does not despite "d" actually being the first letter of a sentence? I am just curious. You were consistent with that in all repeated samples. |
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heaudio123
"Dunning Kruger ...
Like believing you can't fool yourself into believing
something is true that isn't? Or the Dunning Kruger of parroting
technical claims" Dunning Kruger! Dunning Kruger! Dunning Kruger! Dunning Kruger! Dunning Kruger! And when you've exhausted that argument, you'll resort to Confirmation bias! Confirmation bias! Confirmation bias! Confirmation bias! Then, delusional snowflakes! delusional snowflakes! delusional snowflakes! delusional snowflakes! You are always ready with you're "sharp wit" and "cutting observations." Never any evidence though just argument, insult and of course Dunning Kruger! Dunning Kruger! Dunning Kruger! Dunning Kruger! |
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You forgot the fourth group: Those who’ve actually listened, conducted their own tests, and reached their own independent conclusions. I don’t see much evidence that there are many here who are in your #3 group. That’s because many of those who would pretend to belong to that group either dismiss mountains of evidence with a wave of the hand or - just as often - simply pretend that the evidence doesn’t exist. 4th? see groups 1,2...they are there... independent research my eye.... hey...when you done with your independent research...write a book or two on the topic....I am sure masses will pick it up...you can sell anything.. |
Thank you turnbowm for answering my question in regard to what aftermarket cables you've compare to stock ones. I can't speak to audioquest as I've never owned them, but pangia never impressed me much. They are well made however. If you're so inclined check out Jena or Siltech. I've had great results with both of them. ATdavid, Still waiting on your answer to that question. |
I dont give a damn about cables differences... There exist and they are not the first thing to address at all in the way to create our own Hi-FI heaven...Cables differences are minute differences compare to the controlled acoustical dimension of a room, or to the controls of the electrical grid of the house and even minute differences compared to the controlled methods about resonance.... Cables controversies and other electronical components controversies HIDE completely the real problem to solve: How to embed in the mechanical grid, in the electrical grid, and in the acoustical grid of a house, any audio system without paying big amount of money to do so...I solve that myself without investing much and with homemade solutions only... Results: The acoustician is more important (55% of S. Q.) than the mechanical engineer(15% of S.Q.) and even more important than the electrical engineer (30% of S.Q. )…(These % are only metaphors to convey my experience and the final impact on sound quality in my own audio system, not real measured numbers) A final remark : When I speak about acoustic I dont speak about only PASSIVE ways to changes the acoustical field with different materials, like most people think about when they think acoustic; but also of ACTIVE ways to do so, which are rarely spoken about in forums and, when spoken about, which are explained like secondary and completely separated tweaks instead of systematic and complementary methods like they effectively are.... Not all people had the monetary means to create a perfect acoustical room....I know that it is possible to create one with very low cost....Peanuts.....But with active and not only passive methods.... And for those who speaks about placebos and audio hallucinations.... In the last 2 years I create a complete set of step by step, incremental, experiments, that produce minute increase in S.Q. one after the other that cannot be dismiss no more by the word "illusion".... An experiment in the making is not placebo.... :) And measuring amplifiers is NOT the essential way to improve S.Q. in a strong way anymore....A good amplifier of today dont crush a good amplifier of yesterday, except for little differences that are in no way on the same level than the rightful controls of the 3 embeddings.... Dialogue between deafs or believers is not useful to create S.Q. |
Stop worrying about crunching data. Stop worrying about whether you've been peddled snake oil. It's okay to go goo-goo-eyed over a price but if the price is comfortable to you after you calm down a little, why the heck not? Over the years I've decided that purchasing hifi is as subjective as purchasing a musical instrument. Expensive usually means better but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy the heck out of a less stratospherically priced example of the breed. |
Geoffkait, I think you are confusing blind with deaf. Similar words, different meaning. Glupson, I think this comes down to extraordinary claims, and while there has been tests on amplifiers over the years that showed that audiophiles can have a hard time discerning relative inexpensive from expensive amplifiers when all other variables are removed (and the speakers are not an overly difficult load), there have also been tests over the years that showed differences. Controlled tests have also shown sensitivity to the distortion profile beyond what would revealed with pure THD measures, IM distortion has been shown to be easier to detect, and amplifier vendors will even tweak the response and distortion to achieve a desired "tone". The claims for certain products are truly "extraordinary" and the explanations used to justify don't pass the smell test. Sure some of them are "real" things, but real, and being anywhere near audible are completely different. If real, as well, they should be easy to prove. |
I did blind tests at CES in 2005 in the Golden Sound room for the Intelligent Chip and Brilliant Pebbles and I think we did blind tests for Ultra Tweeters too. The ones with no output below 1 GHz. The well known U.K. reviewer whose name escapes me did a blind test of the Intelligent Chip for an auditorium full of people in U.K. that year. I also did blind test of Mr. Chip for John Curl and Bob Crump that same year. I actually recommend A/B tests for some of my products, like Clever Lil Clock, Positive Feedback did a blind test for the clock way back when. No big deal. A lot of audio devices require a certain amount of testing just to find out where the heck the damn things should go in the room, you know, things like Tube Traps, room diffusers, tiny little bowl resonators, Mpingo discs, things of that nature. |
In all fairness, I am not sure if any audio manufacturer does blind tests in public. At the same time, speakers, amplifiers, etc., are, more or less, readily available in shops for one to compare them. With a little effort, a person could arrange it to be somewhat blind. Not exactly strong scientific blind, but usable on a casual personal basis. Kind of for choosing speakers to buy. Is it possible to do something like that for cables, without going through the hassle of buying, packing, sending back? Do audio stores even cary any range of cables? For example, Synergistic Research dealer is not that easy to locate. You do have to submit some of your personal information first. https://www.synergisticresearch.com/dealers/ |
^^^^^ And this would be the typical answer to the question. Excuses and deflections. Is the questions overly hard? Why don't suppliers do public blind tests to remove all doubt about audibility? It is not a question of they rarely do it ... it is literally they never do it. Can anyone answer this question without an excuse? |
what matters is if you prefer them in your room, in your system. and feel they are worth the cost to you...don't care if others like them in different rooms and with different systems...and the differences are not necessarily night and day...and if you don't like them or don't feel they are worth the price, then you return them for a full refund...seems so simple |
What no one who advocates seems to be able to answer, and this should be a really really easy answer, IS, if the results are so obviously different between these cables, "night and day" as is so often communicated, then why don't suppliers, of which there are many, do these double blind tests publicly, for all to see, so they can easily prove the value of their product. The great thing about a double blind these is there is no bias. Heck, the suppliers can pick their listeners, train them all they want, heck I would encourage it, but the control of the testing must be independent. If they can prove, via independent testing, with a given set of listeners, even a carefully selected group, that you can differentiate between good quality cables and their uber expensive cables, then all this back and forth goes away. I know I can create differences between cables, i.e. really poorly constructed ones, and tolerably constructed ones, that will likely have audible differences for some listeners. For interconnects that will be very hard unless there are noise issues particular to that system, and for turntable cables it could be easy. However, once you reach a tolerable level of construction, the diminishing returns are not just small, they appear to be non-existent. Being able to afford an expensive system does not magically improve your ears or brain. So .... perhaps someone can explain why, since the difference is night and day, no public independently administered tests by these suppliers? I have my theories about that ... what are yours? ... Would you trust someone who said their car got 200mpg? ... there used to be lots of claims of devices like that. What about those claims of "devices" you hook up to your AC line that magically reduce your energy bill by 30%. Would you just "trust" that? .... those both have been proven false. glupson4,859 posts05-16-2020 3:39pm"It’s really difficult to take seriously those who incessantly call for blind testing to be done by others."..... |
The posts on here and the depth of them illustrate who has the scientific understand of the topic and who does not. Thank you for pointing that out .... rodman999994,361 posts05-16-2020 2:03pm"I don’t see much evidence that there are many here who are in your #3 group. That’s because many of those who would pretend to belong to that group either dismiss mountains of evidence with a wave of the hand or - just as often - simply pretend that the evidence doesn’t exist." Empty vessels make the most noise! The source of their hubris: https://code.tutsplus.com/articles/do-you-suffer-from-the-dunning-kruger-effect--net-22227 Those with even a modicum of scientific understanding, realize how much remains, to be explored and proven. |
"It’s really difficult to take seriously those who incessantly call for blind testing to be done by others."Not that this topic will change the world, but dismissing arguments just because someone did not do the particular test herself/himself was probably accepted scientific discussion around the time we exited caves. The requirement is that test results can be reproduced, not that everyone has to do the test before talking about it. To some level it is an honor system. You are presumed of not lying. That is why statements of conflict of interest exist. In this particular back-and-forth about manufacturer’s blind testing, there is a huge potential conflict of interest. Manufacturer may claim it in an advertisement as a description of their methodology, but that is where it ends. Even reputable manufacturers with decent know-how (Revel speakers, for example) describe their practice as including "blind testing", but they make it clear it is for them to compare their products with competitors and improve what they can, and not anything more than that. Having said that, I am not sure you could just walk into their offices/lab, but I have seen many reports of people who actually went there and were played music in this "blind comparison" way. Now, how much credibility in this honor system does a person capable of posting those things on facebook have is on you to decide. |
geoffkait Noone said blind tests are irrelevant. You’re putting words in my mouth. What I said is they don’t mean anything. They only mean something when there is a preponderance of evidence from many tests, independent from each otherThat’s essentially true. And that’s why - if you’re among those who believe blind testing is the best way to evaluate an audio component - the only single blind test results that are really important are the results of your own test. It’s really difficult to take seriously those who incessantly call for blind testing to be done by others. |
Repeating roman precept of law in a dialogue between deafs dont make any progress possible... Experiments dont necessarily need an evidence to begin with....Only dialogue between donkeys or lawyers and accountants need this kind of evidence called blinders or rules, pick the one you are pleased with.... |
"Hmm, now what name shall I choose?"Money for nothing? You may need to pay a small licensing fee, but it would be worth it. And, in case some here are correct, nobody could chase you because of false advertising. All you naysayers and cable non-believers should learn that looks are important. Stop arguing. You buy your clothes for the way they look, too. Even if they are just as warm as those ugly and cheap ones. So, what is the big deal with people paying money for prettier cables that may do the same job? Bigger deal is buying it from the man who could post those things on facebook. That is when some would find a wire hanger sufficient. |
turnbowm, Thanks for the link. Pretty despicable behaviour, (no pun intended) from Ted Denney. Seems to be an example of the unmasked face of a high rolling snake oil scam salesman who advocates ignorance and exploits marketing tricks such as expectation bias and suggestion. Synergistic Research? The main synergy seems to be the way money is being syphoned off unsuspecting customers. Kind of telling also how Gene’s struggling to get a decent online setup with his Audioholics channel whilst Ted’s driving around in his Ferrari. Didnt Noel Lee of Monster Cables also end up fabulously wealthy too? Nothing new here. If we fail to dispel this climate of ignorance maybe I’ll eventually get exasperated and start my own cable company. Should be easy enough to get hold of some high purity OFC cable wholesale from China and then design a flash sleeve and logo. Hmm, now what name shall I choose? How about one of the following, apologies if already taken: Deus ex Machina (it’s all done by wires) Give Them Enough Rope Grot Cables Money for Old Rope Unobtainium Cables Wire PlanetWire CosmosWired for Sound Wired https://www.audioholics.com/editorials/synergistic-research?fbclid=IwAR2fIIJHcGsI_BCjBIaZ6BMW8h617dG... kozka, “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Christopher Hitchens. That’s my mantra from now on. Unless I start my own business of course. Then I will be on here arguing about giving the consumer free choice, insisting blind tests are irrelevant, and suggesting the influence of as of yet undetected particles and energy fields etc etc ad nauseum. |
"I don’t see much evidence that there are many here who are in your #3 group. That’s because many of those who would pretend to belong to that group either dismiss mountains of evidence with a wave of the hand or - just as often - simply pretend that the evidence doesn’t exist." Empty vessels make the most noise! The source of their hubris: https://code.tutsplus.com/articles/do-you-suffer-from-the-dunning-kruger-effect--net-22227 Those with even a modicum of scientific understanding, realize how much remains, to be explored and proven. |
kozka A typical thread on audio forums where exotic power cords, exotic speaker cables, interconnects, vibration pads/puck(?) are dwelled upon consists of:You forgot the fourth group: Those who’ve actually listened, conducted their own tests, and reached their own independent conclusions. I don’t see much evidence that there are many here who are in your #3 group. That’s because many of those who would pretend to belong to that group either dismiss mountains of evidence with a wave of the hand or - just as often - simply pretend that the evidence doesn’t exist. |
kozkaA typical thread on audio forums where exotic power cords, exotic speaker cables, interconnects, vibration pads/puck(?) are dwelled upon consists of: 1.snake oil salesman en force...best markups for them 2.suckers who spent money on those, also en force...now they are looking for an atonement 3.a very small group of people with science/engineering background who know.. wishing you god listening to all ! >>>>Thank you! God |
A typical thread on audio forums where exotic power cords, exotic speaker cables, interconnects, vibration pads/puck(?) are dwelled upon consists of: 1.snake oil salesman en force...best markups for them 2.suckers who spent money on those, also en force...now they are looking for an atonement 3.a very small group of people with science/engineering background who know.. wishing you god listening to all ! |
kozka “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” – Christopher Hitchens. amen >>>>>I know that means something. Was Christopher Hitchens the old dude in Back to the Future? No, wait, don’t tell me. He was the black hole dude in the wheelchair! Hialeah |
glupson4,855 posts05-16-2020 8:46am"Nothing to do with the topic of this thread, but is everyone here willing to patronize the business of a person who insults another one on the basis of Asperger’s syndrome with the language used in those facebook (I think it was facebook) posts?" Good question and I'm hoping that people will give this some thought when making their next purchase. |
It was truly an ugly exchange on Facebook, but that is his MO. In theory it should be easy to address the criticism and prove publicly the marketing claims, but I guess it is easier to attack people. One of his dealers employees out of Chicago was just as bad in this interchange. That person now runs his marketing. glupson4,855 posts05-16-2020 11:46amNothing to do with the topic of this thread, but is everyone here willing to patronize the business of a person who insults another one on the basis of Asperger’s syndrome with the language used in those facebook (I think it was facebook) posts? |
Who cares? The person who posted about Wireworld doing double blind testing, to which I posted that to my knowledge, no public (validated) tests have ever been published, nor by SR, the other company that claims double blind testing. That is all, that is it. I can't control how others respond to that information. cleeds2,962 posts05-16-2020 11:37am heaudioI made the claim that SR and others claim to do double blind tests but none of them to my knowledge had done a properly administered double blind test in public ...So what? Who cares? |
heaudio I made the claim that SR and others claim to do double blind tests but none of them to my knowledge had done a properly administered double blind test in public ...So what? Who cares? I've been a participant in a few double-blind listening tests. They were interesting. The results were never intended for publication. Who cares? What really matters is the result of your own evaluations. |