Anyone Using Crystals?


Are any members using crystals in their systems? If so, how are you using them to get good results?
sabai
Post removed 
Oooo.. northern, you just said double blind. I’m afraid you’ll have to leave. 😁
...and we all start edging into the surreal....

Geo, you're absolutely Right.  As a skeptic, I ought to investigate...IF interested, which I'm not so much.   Given my 'listening space', which is light years from being 'optimal' (you'd be appalled, really), I do what I can with it...

I don't 'get' the 'religious aspect' of the discussion mentioned, but faith is a wonderful thing in general as long as one doesn't opt for the 'ISIS approach".  Bombing and beheading the opposition into compliance in regard to one's audio tastes might be an option but let's leave that to the 'cable and interconnect' crowd.  They seem a bit more 'religious' about it...

Yes, the previous Does drip enormous amounts of sarcasm....sorry about the stains on your monitors.   Windex....;)

(Maybe I should just toss it and become a pro troll....I do suspect that some would rather stuff my keyboard into an appropo orifice and hope for an early and quiet end to my 'absurdvations'...*sly S*)

"It's all too much...."   
Northernescape
And I guess I do have to add to this thread there is a reason that most scientific studies involving humans and responses are double blinded! AND INCLUDE A PLACEBO TO ASCERTAIN THAT EFFECT.. BG...

Nope, doesn’t work for audio. Might be OK for pharma. There are just too many reasons the tests can be done wrong for audio. Therefore nothing can be concluded if the test results are negative. Best to just throw them out. In audio we see the threat of controlled blind tests frequently, and the dreaded placebo effect and it’s ugly sister, expectation bias, you know, as if the mere threat of such is sufficient to scare the opposition into submission or "prove" the controversial device under consideration must be a hoax or scientifically impossible.

"Most scientific studies...." Lol.

Double blind tests. Ewwwwww!
Whatever one thinks makes their system sound better is the tweak that should be used.
Lai, 100% agree. I really really do.Many are the physicians who have prescribed sugar pills to great patient benefit. If it works for you obviously keep it!

But...But beware of situations in audio somewhat analogous to Münchhausen's Syndrome, in that the audiophile unwittingly HAS to try solutions, that are proven scientifically impossibly unable to improve sound, because of an intrinsic need. If it is inexpensive enough, generally really no harm(and I guess this would be wallet dependent), but if carried to extreme, it would represent a detrimental "syndrome". Often coupled with dogmatic defense in the face of valid criticism, this situation would be less than ideal. I believe all of us have seen this behavior amongst the audiophile population. However, if one really believes anything makes the sound better, bearing in mind the previous cautionary imperative, more power to you!!

Any study, including double blind, nearly measures response numbers. Almost never are they anywhere near 100%, the reason for statistics and probability. The two standard deviations or "95%" probability of the result not being due to chance Never, ever states it is the correct result absolutely, just that it is the statistically correct chance of being the result. We scientifically accept that, but never deny that it might be incorrect. Many audiophile fringe issues seem like this. The real issue is absolutely 100% we all do not hear the same and this, perhaps more than anything, answers the variance in audio perceived benefits.

stfoth, yep but kinda dropped psychotropic studies, shifted to anesthetic agents, which when you think of it, are the ultimate big gun--knocking you out, rather than fine tuning sensations, so kind of boring in comparison.
 
northernescape
Lai, 100% agree. I really really do.Many are the physicians who have prescribed sugar pills to great patient benefit. If it works for you obviously keep it!

>>>>>>>But can be shown that a thing is or is not a placebo by careful testing. That's a pretty obvious Strawman argument you just made.

But...But beware of situations in audio somewhat analogous to Münchhausen's Syndrome, in that the audiophile unwittingly HAS to try solutions, that are proven scientifically impossibly unable to improve sound, because of an intrinsic need.

>>>>>>Oh, geez, another Strawman argument. Maybe they are scientifically impossible in your mind. That's not the same thing as scientifically impossible.


If it is inexpensive enough, generally really no harm(and I guess this would be wallet dependent), but if carried to extreme, it would represent a detrimental "syndrome".

>>>>>Who are you to decide how much anyone can spend? 

Often coupled with dogmatic defense in the face of valid criticism, this situation would be less than ideal. I believe all of us have seen this behavior amongst the audiophile population. However, if one really believes anything makes the sound better, bearing in mind the previous cautionary imperative, more power to you!!

>>>>>>This is all starting to look like dogmatic criticism, not valid criticism. Sorry.

Any study, including double blind, nearly measures response numbers. Almost never are they anywhere near 100%, the reason for statistics and probability. The two standard deviations or "95%" probability of the result not being due to chance Never, ever states it is the correct result absolutely, just that it is the statistically correct chance of being the result. We scientifically accept that, but never deny that it might be incorrect. Many audiophile fringe issues seem like this. The real issue is absolutely 100% we all do not hear the same and this, perhaps more than anything, answers the variance in audio perceived benefits.

>>>>>>Of course there won't be 100% agreement for anything audio related, for the reasons I already alluded to. That's why I suggested throwing out the negative results if most results are positive. If there is only one test and its results are negative it doesn't mean anything. I dare say what appears to be a fringe issue to you is an advanced concept to some others. 



Negative ions (as in air fresheners) attach to dust particles causing them to fall out of the air. The good news is the air is cleaner, the bad news is there are more dust particles on everything. Thunderstorms also do this, although indoor thunderstorms seem extreme and perhaps should be avoided ("Bob, why is the cat smoldering?").
Geoffkait, your responses are why, as I first noted, I really did not want to comment in this fascinating thread. To a degree you are correct, however, the straw man argument is really not that but rather revealing my intrinsic scientific skepticism concerning the topic of this thread( and many others as well). However, the experiment here is simple and the null hypothesis, something like "crystal when( pick your single thing, placement of crystals, number of crystals, size, etc, but only when as the variable tested) do not improve the sound of song a. Experimental protocol like:
First determine minimum number of observations required for significance. Then provide experimental setup...
1. A given audio setup, hidden from view.
2. A random sample of participants(and here randomness might be a questionable variable post experiment)
3. Someone who queries the participantsas to ( and here it can be a continuous result, I.e improvement on a 1-10,1-5, etc scale or discontinuous improvement yes/no)
4. Someone who behind the hidden setup varies the experimental audio setup by Only changing the test variable (crystal change, as noted above).
5. Collect results
6. Analyze the results by determining whether or not the results support the null hypothesis.
7. Discuss as to how the results may have occurred.
simple

 Now obviously no one is likely to expend the effort to do this for the countless audio situations, products, and perturbations existent in the known universe BG .


As to scientifically impossible, that is accepted practice. If existing dogma and the preponderance of data, gathered through countless experiments, supports a given conclusion, then yes, right now based on all existing evidence it IS scientifically impossible. However if you are saying that such a conclusion is open to and should be challenged you are correct (also see one of the great books of recent science philosophy written by one of my professors, T S Kuhn, 
The Structure of Scientific Revolutions). Any good acoustic scientist should always be open minded.

i never determined "how much someone should spend" and intentionally noted "wallet dependent".

As to your other statements, I do not understand what you are critical of, however, I never wished to be offensive in any way to anyone, and I am very sorry if you took it that way.
BTW! Geoffkai, I missed your double blinded and most scientific studies snarky response. Are you anti science or just be difficult. Hard to be an audiophile and anti science at the same time. The former is entirely contingent on the latter in our world.
 
wolf_garcia
Negative ions (as in air fresheners) attach to dust particles causing them to fall out of the air. The good news is the air is cleaner, the bad news is there are more dust particles on everything. Thunderstorms also do this, although indoor thunderstorms seem extreme and perhaps should be avoided ("Bob, why is the cat smoldering?").

That's very good, Wolfie. 🙄
Northernescape,

I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to say. What exactly are you claiming is "scientifically impossible?" Be careful, don’t use the old Appeal to Authority on me. It won’t work. I’ve been immunized. Besides, we already have people here whose mission is protecting naive audiophiles from unscrupulous shysters and ensuring the Laws of Science are not sullied.
Northernescape - Geoff just likes to be difficult and often snarky. But, in the long run, he’s a good guy. If you have thin skin or hold onto grudges, you’ll never get to the long run.

As far as double blind for audio.. that gets difficult because it takes a while to really hear what a system is doing. I’ve changed things and noticed a difference at first, but sometimes it takes a few weeks to truly understand what that difference is and if it’s an improvement. How you would design a double blind test that takes that into account, I don’t know.

I don’t believe I’m being difficult. I am after the truth, which can be both difficult and painful. I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday when it comes to either science or audio. 
It's all good folks, nobody understands difficult like I do, and if you think audiophiles have disagreements, try scientists when a controversial paper is presented. I really really enjoy such discourse.
In addition, as I noted I am in no way an expert audiophile, and many many will be able to identify real, subtle changes I never could. That's why the real bottom line is if you like it, keep it, and maybe try and explain to others why. Bg

It's all good folks, nobody understands difficult like I do, and if you think audiophiles have disagreements, try scientists when a controversial paper is presented. I really really enjoy such discourse.
In addition, as I noted I am in no way an expert audiophile, and many many will be able to identify real, subtle changes I never could. That's why the real bottom line is if you like it, keep it, and maybe try and explain to others why. Bg

...who's going to clean up all the fur that's on the floor here? ;)

But, please....carry on....beats Fox or MSNBC  (that ought to cover That...) *G*
"Scientific explanations" have been given for everything from why bumblebees can’t fly, to why battleships can’t float, to why there cannot be UFOs, why we never made it to the moon, to why 9/11 was a Government conspiracy. Give me a break. Gee, I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears nobody has actually stepped up to the plate and given a reasonable explanation - a scientific explanation - why crystals CAN’T improve the sound. So far all I see is a lot of who shot John and angst. I also note that one fellow brought up his credentials, just like I predicted he would, as if that would win the day.

If a retailer or manufacture is willing to give a money back if not satisfied guarantee, why not give crystals a try?
Geoff, never said crystals do not work.

I believe I believe and that always has kept tinker bell alive for me.

just suggested maybe just really test them as to real effect, which as we all noted is extremely difficult to impossible bg!


As to scientific, that would require testing, which we do not have, so until proven false(the rationale for utilizing a null hypothesis in the scientific method), they must work......huh??

and please stop denigrating science as a whole, you would not have audio, save live performances, without science!!

northernescape
Geoff, never said crystals do not work.

>>>>Then what was all that "scientifically impossible" mumbo jumbo?

I believe I believe and that always has kept tinker bell alive for me.

>>>>>>Whatever that is supposed to mean.

just suggested maybe just really test them as to real effect, which as we all noted is extremely difficult to impossible bg!

>>>>>>As you all noted? You mean all of the naysayers, the ones who have no experience with crystals? I suspect you want things both ways.

As to scientific, that would require testing, which we do not have, so until proven false(the rationale for utilizing a null hypothesis in the scientific method), they must work......huh??

>>>>You are assuming a great many things. If someone wishes to test my crystals or any crystals anyway they wish, please BE MY GUEST! There are many audiophile products based on crystals, not just mine. So one wonders, how do you know?

and please stop denigrating science as a whole, you would not have audio, save live performances, without science!!

>>>>>Huh? I’m not denigrating science as a whole. I’m criticizing the misuse of science when trying to attack an idea or a thing. I thought I was clear. Go back and re-read the sentence with the phrase "9/11 was a Government conspiracy" in it.

cheers

geoff kait
machina dynamica
advanced audio concepts
"The difficult we do quickly; the impossible takes longer."
geoffkait,

Do you mean to say you don't believe the science produced by the thousands of professionals associated with Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth?

sabai OP
geoffkait,

Do you mean to say you don’t believe the science produced by the thousands of professionals associated with Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth?

I don’t believe much of anybody. But judging by the way you phrased the question, probably no. I believe in me. Yoko and me.

No scientist ever said that bumblebees can’t fly, or that battleships can’t float

Enjoy living in your urban mythological world
Well... it works... I challenge you to try it.

I use an alum crystal suspended in front of each speaker.

I then train a vaporizer on each crystal.

And I shoot a spray of Apple Cider Vineagar across the fog from the vaporizers at a 90 degree angle in front of the speakers - I use plain old water pistols to shoot the spray - works fine.

Result is: just phenomenol sound from both speakers and sometimes even a little lightning bolt when the air pressure and due point are just right.

Very compelling!

But... I must confess... your wife will have a lot of fun with it.  She gets very sarcastic when I get out my crystals, vaporizers, pistols... and... my ion gun to clean my records.  I've tried to convince her that its all in the sound... you're not supposed to see anything.  Well, of course... except for the occasional lighting bolt - she likes that.
Hi Sabai
I use some bags 5x3 cm and some a little bigger, i dont know exactly what crystals they contain. 
Started putting them on the powerinletplugs on all equipments and the result was pretty clear, the soundstage got more natural, siblings were redused, more refined bass and the soundstage got bigger in every plan.
After that i bought a lot more and do now have them on all plugs and terminal.
Several of my friends have also tried them and it seems that the result depends on the level you have aquired. On well tweeked and good systems the effect is easy to hear. 
The effect is maybee minor but if you already have worked a lot with you system, you will enjoy it. The price is relative low abou 50$ for the small ons, double for the big ones. I think today, i may have 30 bags placed around, equal to ca 2 Stillpoints Ultra 5 with bases.
Next to changing fuses i beleave its the most costeffective tweak you can do and i would highly recomend it.

By the way i am looking for Shakti Hallografs pairs, if anyone wants to sell.
Nive music week.
fsmrz18,

"Another reason not to allow some of us out of the house." I love it. Lol.

thastum,

Very interesting. Do you put these bags together DIY or do you buy them somewhere?
Crystals can absolutely help you enjoy your system more if used properly.  I placed some on my wife's wrist and all negative anything throughout the entire house disappeared for an extended period.  Unfortunately, one does need to add to the crystal collection periodically to keep the effect going.
Many salutes, dissolved substances, are in a medium familiar to us all. In that medium they frequently spontaneously, or after some induction process, form crystals such as calcium phosphate, calcium oxalate, hippuric acid, ammonium bifurcate, and many others. I would suggest that medium be put to good use and applied extensively and regularly to all audio equipment to get the crystalline improvement effect  The medium is urine. BG  BBG
One imagines that the urine idea would match quite well with the toilet paper rolls idea over on the cable elevators thread. I had a sneaking suspicion it wouldn't be too long before this thread went into the toilet.
If you people who were with the scientists who developed .ruby lasers or quartz watches, lcd televisions or the quatz ocilator in your laptop or the crystal radios i made as a kid or the other uses of crystals and minerals we would be a lot worse off as a society.dont critisize what you dont understand. 

OH, brother! What’s next? Cables with blood conductors? Vampire Cables. Could they be anemic sounding? Slip the crimson to me, Jimson!
Now, that's scary....Vampire Wire...hard core audiologists hanging around  clinics, sidling up to potential clients....

"Hey, buddy...what to make Real Money?"

Desiccated corpses found nearby, drained like raisins....all in search of that last nuance, that last db.... 
Maybe, as much of the public assumes based on the price of audiophile components, WE REALLY ARE CERTIFIABLY INSANE!!
Crystals. Ooooooo! High prices of audio gear. Ooooooo! Just wait’ll we get to something that really is controversial. Heads will explode. Mossbacks and knuckledraggers, this means you! 😀
I tried some quartz crystals in various parts of my stereo....found they did nothing, until I put them in my electrical panel...then I heard a very real improvement.
Free tip for crystal buffs. Crystals work better when they've been "clarified." Use demagnetizer on them, wash them in cold water and/or place then in the bright sun for a couple hours. 

I see that geoffkait denies being difficult -- but he does not deny being snarky. Thank goodness he did not fall off a turnip truck. It must have been some other truck. Lol.
Sabai, when are you going to say something relevant to your own OP? Cat got your tongue?
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