Anyone NOT like the sound of VPI?

Madfloyd,
What speaker were you thinking of changing to? If you don't mind the suggestion, your system seems to be almost tailor made for a pair of Vandersteens. The Quatros and 5As both incorporate powered base modules with room correction EQ. I use the 5As as does Stringreen which may explain why neither of us complain of low frequency problems with our VPI tables. You have a good table(I didn't say the world's best)and should be able to get very good results with it. Audio Research and Theta(citadels in particular) are widely reguarded to be great matches for Vandersteen. Just one idea from one guy who's happy with his system.

Well, I'm not familiar with the Pro-ject so I've got nothing relevant to say about that. The fact that your vinyl rig "sounds completely different" from your cd makes me suspect the cartridge and/or preamp are your problem though. When I play my vinyl rig, I've occasionally had to stop and look up to see whether or not the turntable is spinning because it sounds so similar to my Marantz Sa11S1. From what others have said in past threads, I doubt you're going to be very happy with a target wall mount shelf either unless you replace the mdf shelf with something like a Neuance drop-in replacement. Mdf sounds like mud from my experience under the VPI. I know that it seems hard to believe that the support substrate can have such a substantial impact, you'll just have to try this for yourself and see. Still, I wouldn't let this aspect sidetrack you from the bigger issue, optimizing the phono preamp chain and getting a cartridge that works better with the VPI arm.

Some info about my setup:

- It's sitting on a heavy makeshift platform consisting of several layers of MDF glued and screwed together resting on top of a stereo rack. The rack sits on very spongy carpet on top of a cement floor.

I ordered a Target shelf so I can wall mount it, but my tiny brain finds it hard to believe this will make a significant difference tonally.

I had the turntable professionally setup recently. it does sound much more musical, but it lacks bass. This is ironic, because I have speakers that are way too bass heavy (Aerial Model 9's) in my particular room (soundproofed, retains bass energy). If I play a CD of the same material I play on the TT, it sounds completely different. Tried Steely Dan last night - same thing. I almost benefit from the weaker bass of the VPI because of my speaker issue, but I am going to change my speakers for a pair that is leaner in the midbass ... then I'll really have a problem with the VPI.

I'm using various interconnects (Audioquest, Monster). I'm making sure NOT to use my Nordost (because they typically thin out the bass).

Currently going into a Pro-ject Tube Box SE II (which was also adjusted in terms of jumpers etc) by my dealer.

After the phono stage, it does to a Audio Research REF III.

Amplifiers are Theta Citadels (monoblocks).

Josephtorres brought up another aspect of Scout ownership that's not been discussed yet. The Scout is VERY dependent on a good platform of some sort to flesh our it's sonic signature IMO. I'd forgotten that when I first set up my Scout and listened to it, it did lack some mid bass weight and disappointed me a bit. At present, I'm using a thick maple platform which totally cured the perceived lack of balance. The Gingko is another route I'd definitely consider. All this said, the Scout still didn't sound bright without a platform. It still sounds like you've not optimized the cartridge for the rest of your system. What sort of phono preamplification and phono interconnects are you using?

Madfloyd, I've complained about a similar problem on these forums as well. Specifically, a relatively lightweight tonal balance, the bass doesn't have enough impact or fullness for me.

I'm not ready to give up on my Scoutmaster with 10.5i arm at this point, however. Many on this forum feel VPI's sound fine, so I'm willing to do further work on my setup.

As for the problem, I suspect the relatively low mass of the VPI arms could be part of the problem, you do have to use a fairly high compliance cartridge with these arms, particularly the 9" arms. Changing my 9 arm to the 10.5 arm helped out the bass to some extent, the higher mass of this arm is likely helping here. I also recently added about 40 lbs of lead weight to the Bright Star Big Rock under my tt, this further helped out the bass.

Beyond this, who knows where the problem lies. It could be cartridge alignment, the platter, rubber belt (I changed to thread drive), acrylic platter, tt isolation, cartridge, my phono stage. Every one of these things has been mentioned as possible culprits by audiogon members answering my posts. There are so many variables in tt setups, its difficult to pin it down to any one thing.

I've also heard from some who don't care for the VPI sound, it seems they think the VPI lacks musicality. I wonder if this is a lack of satisfying warmth in the lower frequencies.

I next move will be replacing the Sovtech 12ax7s in my phono stage with Mullards, then a different cartridge alignment with the Mint Lp. If I'm still not there, I will be changing out the capacitors in my phono stage to Mundorf Silver/Golds or VH Audio TFTFs. If the bass is still lightweight after these mods I will be much further inclined to blame the VPI. Still, a better cartridge and the super platter may be needed to complete the setup.

Based on my experience with my VPI to this point, I would have to say the VPI Scoutmaster is not a plug and play unit, its simply not a finished product without all the upgrades. The upgrade path VPI offers makes it easier to get started, but it sure sucks to think you aren't getting all the turntable has to offer without those upgrades. I have a feeling the Scoutmaster is going to end up being at least a 6.5k investment rather than the 2.5k investment I initially thought it would be.

Nordost wiring is awesome, but is also very revealing of problems in your system. It takes time and patience to find the sources of any problems in your system and eliminate them.

My current setup comprising a Scoutmaster with a JMW 10.5i has no problems with bass or treble. Bass is deep, controlled and solid. High notes are silky smooth.

I wouldn’t consider switching turntables because as good as my system sounds now, I’m still not done. Turntables are mechanical devices and it is very easy to change the sound of your turntable.

A friend of mine was having trouble with a Technics and fixed his problem by putting it on a more solid foundation.

My Scoutmaster sits on a Gingko Cloud 11 with Herbie’s 2” grungebuster balls. I placed 15 lbs on the Gingko Cloud 11 underneath the Scoutmaster, which dramatically increased the soundstage and eliminated almost all the noise.

The point is, it doesn’t really sound like your system has been correctly set up. If you experiment with your system, you may be able to isolate the real cause of any problems in your system and come up with your own solutions to fix them.

So, is it fair to say then that MM sounds darker than MC?

As I mentioned, I've heard two different VPI tables with different cartridges in different systems and they both seemed to be bright sounding. Only thing in common was the Signature arm.

The tables are probably fine. I heard an entry level model recently and it sounded fine. Probably just need to match the cartridge, as Audiofeil indicated. The Unipivot design is new to me and not sure what to make of it yet, but it would not surprise me if bass was impacted with a low compliance cartridge in the Unipivot.

Is it just me or does Sirpeedy always seem to nail things right on the head?

I've got quite a few audio pals who have gotten superb results from VPI tables,over the years.I've heard them over a long period of time,and concur they are just fine!

I've been able to A/B the Super Platter against the "Regular" plexi platter.This in a friend's superb,full range system,using revealing first pressing EMI's,Decca's,Mercury Lp's etc.Other components were first rate(CJ ART,Lyra Titan I,etc)So I have a very good handle on the differences.

Yes,the Super Platter was decidedly better in bass and dynamics,and overall tonal issues....BUT...the regular platter was still quite convincing!There are many other system areas that make a far bigger difference.

You could easily decide to "not like" a specific tube brand,which is FAR more audible than the differences between some of the "material choices" in the "better" tables,speakers,or any other component.

There is a plethora of great tables out there,but if you "think" any well regarded table is "that" colored,or can hear a fairly significant frequency aberration,I'd look elsewhere.'cause it's "not" the table!!

Good luck

I think Audiofeil is on to something.

I am a Rega owner (P5) and would indeed describe them as being dark, especially in comparison to most American made tables I have heard. I would also agree with the Nottingham suggestion, though their famous "black background" perhaps takes a little too much away from the original recording.

The tables are ok; I wouldn't take one of their tonearms if given to me.

Speaking of which, the Shelter to which the OP alludes is a relatively low compliance cartridge. Generally speaking they do not fare well in low mass unipivot arms such as the JMW-9. The Shelter will work but not perform optimally.

Higher compliance cartridges are better choices in that arm.

Cmon guys....., this is most likely a cart loading problem... We need to know the values set on ur phonostage... If I were to venture a guess, I'd say the rega issue was a loading problem as well...no midbass whatsoever ain't the tt in itself....

I really agree with Stringreen that personal taste has everything to do with it. Probably is somewhat system dependent too. I have a VPI and have never been more satisfied with what I'm hearing though I don't deny there's many other great tables out there I have yet to experience.

Hi Madfloyd

Something like "no midbass whatsoever" means you've got a problem somewhere. This would also be very clearly measurable. Have you tried taking RTA measurements of the turntable? Pink noise on a test LP works for this.

I upgrade from a tweaked Rega P25 (used Dynavector carts and Denon 103 / 103R) to a Scoutmaster (Shelter 901), and it was a substantial improvement in every way. Bass in particular (low bass and mid bass) was more tight and dynamic than the Rega. The table is more musical than the Rega was in general.

What is your phono stage and the rest of your system? There's not enough information here to help without knowing the system context.

First thing I'd be suspicious of is the obvious, you are comparing a moving coil cartridge to a very high output moving magnet. Are you sure the phono preamplification chain is optimized for the new cartridge? Or perhaps, you just don't care for the sound of these particular cartridges or inexpensive moving coils in general. I'm using a moving magnet Garrott Optim FGS and have used several other moving magnet designs. None suffer from any hint of lean midbass.

i'm not a vpi 'cheerleader', but the 501 cartridge can be outdone by lots of mm's. especially on warmth and dynamics....before you go chasing other tt's, try a different cartridge.

Try Nottingham. I think you might find what you're looking for on a similar budget.

Everyone has their preferences. Did you give your Scoutmaster enough time to break in that Valhalla wiring? There are a great many audiophiles that think your table is the cats pajamas..make sure the warts are indeed from the table and not elsewhere in the system. One upside is that your table is very sellable. ..just thinking.. you might want to try damping if you haven't and/or the VPI weght for the headshell to increase mass there...

Differnt tastes. There is nothing wrong with the frequency response of the VPI line. I've never heard a Rega described as dark. You might try a Michel Gyrodec SE
or a Linn LP12. They both sound quite different from VPI and Rega.