Orelayer,
"Same goes for the buyer"
Like I said, the seller owns the item. It might be a buyers market right now, but the seller is still in command. I think a lot of buyers think all sellers are in some financial trouble and need to sell the item. Not so. Read the post above yours. |
"The seller can do whatever he wants. The item belongs to him. He wasn't put here just to satisfy low ballers."
Same goes for the buyer.
Question for the people that are insulted by "low ball" offers: What is a "low ball" offer to you? less 10%, 20%, 30%?
When I get a low offer it's not inulting to me and I don't get defensive. I just say no. It's easy. I am not sure why a low offer is insulting or offensive to some of you. |
With the internet there is an aspect of anonymity. It is similar to the the driver that cuts you off then gives you a dirty look and a hand gesture, the finger. The same person would not do that in line at a grocery store.
Years ago before the internet there was a paper called the Want Ad Press.
Buyers would contact sellers on the phone and make an appointment at sellers home. There are also buyers that are not happy unless they haggle the price down even if it is very reasonable to begin with.
A buyer came with his son to by a hard to find item which his son really wanted.
Dad tried to talk me way down for a half hour on an already great deal.
It became insulting. I finally said that it was no longer for sale. He then agreed to my original asking price, where I explained that I had decided to keep it. (I just didn't want to sell to him at that point) He then began arguing that I HAD to sell it since It had been advertised.
I politely asked him to leave, which he refused. I gave an option of physically throwing him out or having the Police escort him out. He called back after he got home to again offer to buy at my original asking price.
I think he wanted to teach his Son how to haggle. That lesson backfired. |
"Sellers are also being ridiculous. I have seen a few amplifiers that didn't sell. When they were re-listed, the asking price was higher rather than lower than the original"
Seems to me this is common practice in a retail stores. The price goes up after the sale is over.
The seller can do whatever he wants. The item belongs to him. He wasn't put here just to satisfy low ballers. |
To Crwindy's post
I've seen sellers do the same thing. They will re-list an item higher than before. My theory is they are trying to catch people who don't visit the site frequently. I remember a seller selling a preamp starting at $600 then it went to as low as $250 when the listing was able to expire. Then after it ended a new listing started $700.
To me there is some gamesmanship now with buying and selling here. There are sellers that want as much money they can get and there are some buyers who want a deal or pay as little as possible. I'm sure there is some wiggle room with both parties but the buyer is going to try and see what they can get away with first. It's part of the game. Heaven forbid someone pay fair market value.
I haven't sold here in awhile but before when I listed at what I thought was fair MV from researching I still got some headscratching offers.
For me. If I see if something I like I'll put in an offer based on how much I want or am able to pay. If the seller doesn't like my offer then they can decline it. |
Sellers are also being ridiculous. I have seen a few amplifiers that didn't sell. When they were re-listed, the asking price was higher rather than lower than the original. A rational person would then offer a percent off the ORIGINAL asking price.
Do these sellers think we are stupid and don't do our homework??? Even with an expired listing, you can find the original by doing a google search. |
I can get and did get a better deal on the last Mustang GT I bought but I went elseware to get it and got the better price since I took cash with me. 2007. I sold it almost 3 years later while it was still certified and sold it outright for 18K, invested half of it into my stereo and the other half in gold. Drove my minivan for a while then dumped the gold and added the money to my 18k and ended up with no money into the Mustang. I am an educated consumer @ 58 and retired when I was 49, so there isn't much I have to beware of (except the sound of solid state) Now I have a Benz Komperssor with 6,380 miles on it that will last me the rest of my life. 4 Mustangs in 8 years was enough for me, but it was at least a little fun. |
The person with poor credit will make up for it with a higher interest rate, but should not get a better bottom line price than someone that is responsible. I have 2 rusted Yugos with no engine that I want to dump. One sold for $50 and the other for $1000000. Should I lose any sleep which buyer got a better deal? Caveat Emptor and the best consumer is the educated consumer! |
The person with poor credit will make up for it with a higher interest rate, but should not get a better bottom line price than someone that is responsible. One simple explanation is the poor credit customer is a SUPERIOR negotiator. The dealer does't care who got a better deal but they made PROFITS on both deals. When you include financing in a transaction, one needs to compare the total including all the accrued interest and not just the sale prices. |
3 out of the 4 cars I bought were for cash. The loan companies hate people that don't finance or pay off early. I now have a mint condition SLK 230 Benz 2001 with 6,375. originals on it. It should last me the rest of my life and gets 22cty 32-33 hwy. Like I said most dealerships make money selling money and the last week or end of month is best because the salesmen have quotas to meet in order to receive a bonus. The person with poor credit will make up for it with a higher interest rate, but should not get a better bottom line price than someone that is responsible. |
Polk432, It doesn't take a study to know that a lot of the rich are that way due to sacrifce. The poor made as much money but lived beyond their means. The study was about families with higher incomes and not the same but one save while the other live beyond their means. I have several friends that own auto dealerships and they tell me there are basically 3 ways for them to make money on a sale. 1. sell for higher than cost 2. financing 3. options. Ideally is to make money on all 3 but one will work. I think if the person with poor credit gets a lower purchasing price, they probably paid for it in financing. If you have a better credit, they will have to make a profit on you through higher price or some options. The 3rd week of January is a very good time to look for a new car because it is the slowest (or one of) month for car sales. I heard usually end of the month. The best time is when they are close to a bonus. One of my friend was at the dealership when they needed 2 more sales to reach 25 for a bonus. He was 24 and got it at cost. The only reason I've ever financed a car was to get a lower sales price. As soon as I get the first statement I pay the loan off. If I can't, I'll just go without. The problem is the loan is amortized so you paid a big chunk of interest in the 1st payment. I found out the hard way many many years ago when I bought a Mustang 5.0 and got it at cost with no options but I had to get financing in order to complete the deal. Paid off after 1 payment and it was all interest so a better deal was to buy some extended warranty option instead. I love car shopping and pay cash. I do my homework and have a FAIR price I'm willing to pay. I tell the salesman, it doesn't matter how many times you talk to your manager, this is my best price and most of the time, it works. |
Knghifi, I thought I saw car mentioned somewhere. It doesn't take a study to know that a lot of the rich are that way due to sacrifce. The poor made as much money but lived beyond their means. Poor credit should mean more for the borrower to pay back, but in my case the guy with bad credit was getting a lower final purchase price than me. I used to buy new Mustangs every 2 years. The dealerships do whatever they can to get a sale, but should not give someone else not as worthy a better deal just because they think I'm a lay down. They found out when I went elseware. I got lots of better offers then, but it was too late. The 3rd week of January is a very good time to look for a new car because it is the slowest (or one of) month for car sales. |
The car dealership has to lower the price for people with slow or bad credit in order to get the person approved for the loan, so that person was offered a lower price than I was offered in order for the dealership to make the sale. I went elseware to make my purchase. Dealerships make money selling money, not cars. They told me this although I already knew that. Nothing wrong in trying to bargin. I've never and will never pay retail for anything. I'll just walk away. Most people won't though. I'm just against lowballers thinking they can get whatever they want for next to nothing. The only reason I've ever financed a car was to get a lower sales price. As soon as I get the first statement I pay the loan off. If I can't, I'll just go without. |
It's an old adage that the way the rich stay rich is to spend as little as they can thereby keeping most of their money. Just human nature to see how little a person can pay for something. Not condoneing lowball offers, thats just the way it is. |
I'm amazed at what some people think 10 year old CDP's (with 10yo transports) are worth. Meridian 508.24's for $1300? Laughable. I bought one (used) here 6 years ago for $1100 (sold it a week later for the same price, BTW)
But hey, buyer beware. Remember the little jar of rocks that you put on a table in your listening room and "was a game changer!" and Audiogon ran their ads! I lost a lot of respect for admin here after that point .....
Laughable. |
Polk432,
I do not follow your logic. The car dealer will make the sale to the customer that results in the greatest revenue to him/her, and does not care the income or net worth of the buyer.
Not clear on the rant about the doctor, but honestly, hi-end audio gear is pretty darn non-essential. Nobody is "owed" some arbitrary amount for this stuff. And the high-disposable-income-guy certainly has no obligation to overpay for these luxury items. |
@Polk432
Once again, I humbly disagree. The dealer at the dealership doesn't care how much money you have, they only care how much money they can get out of you (short term or long term). Audio equipment is almost never purchased on loans or financing so it's a difficult comparison. If you walk into a dealership and say I am willing to pay $20k for that car, not one penny more and walk out leaving your phone number, the seller will not care whether your a millionaire or have exactly $20k to your name (presuming the buyer is not willing to go higher). If the sale is worth it for the seller, he'll sell to either person. If he won't make money off the deal, then he won't sell. My other examples of food, housing, and goods is also similar. I think all buyers (regardless of income) should be allowed to try and get something for the least amount possible. To say, "you can't bargain" because you have the money is somewhat unusual (especially when the seller specifically lists the item as to take lower offers). I think almost every reader of this forum has at least $1000 in the bank. Does that mean they can't (shouldn't) try to bargain down an item that is listed at $500 with a "make an offer" button? If you don't want to take offers below a certain amount, then just start the listing at that price without taking lower offers.
Once again, I respect all opinions that may be contrary to mine. |
Polk432, Invenio78 DIDN'T mention CREDIT. Why are you puuting words in his mouth? Poorer credit=higher risk so should pay more and the problem is??
There was a study that people with higher income tend to be more frugal, use coupons ... maybe reason they make and have more $$.
Well said Invenio78! |
I totally agree with Invenio78. |
Invenio78...cars? Not priced accordingly to income or credit? The hell they aren't. Dealerships will work the price down as far as they can for a person with poor credit rather than someone willing to finance (to get a lower cost) then pay the loan off after the first payment, or pay cash like I always did. I had more than one salesman expect me to wait so that they could get the same car for a person with a history of late payments, and even admit to me that he'd get a better price than me just so they'd get a sale. I waited 5 minutes and walked off the lot and had 15 messages when I got home. I went elseware to buy the Cobra Mustang. Lowballers and bottom feeders will ask for anything they think they can get for free, just like a bum that is not willing to work. Doctors included. |
@Mapman
With all due respect, I don't think how much money you have should determine how much you pay for a particular piece of equipment. I think it's inherently in the best interest of the buyer to pay the least, and the seller to get the most. If you buy a car/food/house/etc, they don't ask for your income and price the item accordingly. I don't think you can get mad at somebody for not paying more than what everybody else pays, just because they have money. IMHO. |
Bottom feeders love to do that Dude! |
Being "thrifty" is maybe part of the reason they can afford to pay market prices but don't.
So I guess you condone this practice? |
"What kills me is guys who make plenty of money and can afford to pay market price or there abouts still make stupid low ball offers"
Being "thrifty" is maybe part of the reason they can afford to pay market prices but don't. |
Invenio:
I just thought there might be a typo in the bit I quoted. Maybe of --> off?
FWIW, my experiences lately, both selling and buying, suggest a buyers market
J |
The seller should charge what HE thinks he should get. The buyer can always buy new. If people want to go by blue book, let them get blue book to help them find it. Put the price in as firm. It's not a buyers market due to a recession. If that was true, the buyers could afford to buy new. If the buyer is trying to take advantage of that situation, then I string them along for a few weeks and they finally go away. |
Jmcgrogan2, I too wish I would of held onto some of the gear I've sold in the past. At that time I always thought if I let it go I can always buy it back. It turns out that this is not so easily done anymore because for some reason more people are hanging to what they have and when it rarely does come up for sale the seller is asking a premium price. |
@Invenio78, no harm done, no worries. I guess there is some misunderstanding here though. I've been here on Audiogon for well over 10 years, I NEVER considered Audiogon an "auction house". I have bought and sold many pieces of equipment over the years here, but never once did I put a piece for sale on auction. I've always placed ads. I found that I could always sell anything if I priced it aggressively enough.
Over the years though, I've found that patience is a virtue when buying AND selling. I may still 'jump' on an item if the price is right, but that is very rare (thankfully). I do realize that if I was desperate I could sell everything I have starting an auction at $1. However, that could also be a big mistake. I've seen quite a few people regret that decision over the years. Because this hobby is about being in the right place at the right time. Starting an auction at $1, you are "forcing" the time issue.
Many times I've turned down the early lower offers and found someone that really wants what I have weeks or even months later. Sure, it doesn't always work, occasionally I overestimate the price of something and wind up selling it months later at a steep discount, but this is very rare. I've also sold stuff that was snapped up within 30 minutes and wondered if I should have priced it higher. That's part of the "game".
The bottom line is, as you say "the market determines the value of an item". The only audio gear that I've seen for 80% off at 10 years old though is either digital gear or phono cartridges. I don't think you can compare the gear here to televisions, because for the most part, the stuff here has a longer lifespan. My current amp turns 20 years old this year, I've never had a 20 year old TV. Vintage gear is popular in this hobby, I can't say the same for television. :-) |
Yes I notice low ball offers a lot. What kills me is guys who make plenty of money and can afford to pay market price or there abouts still make stupid low ball offers. This happened to me about 3 years ago and it turned out to be a Doctor who lived in my hometown. It was my understanding he does this ALL the time. I refer to them as bottom dwellers but its part of buying and selling online I suppose. |
@Jmcgrogan2 and Jdoris
I was not trying to "seller bash", I apologize if it came off that way. Quite the contrary I think audiogon has a very respectable seller community. The point I was trying to make (and perhaps not clearly) was that used electronics in general devalue substantially over short periods of time. This goes for both consumer and audiophile electronics. How much is a used flat screen TV bought 10 years ago for $2000 worth today? Maybe $50. I know that high end gear holds value better, but I don't think an 80% depreciation of an electronics component over the course of 10 years is unreasonable. At the end of the day, it is the market that determines the value of items. The fact that the majority of items listed on Audiogon do not sell tells me that "overall" sellers are overpricing their goods. This is not inherently bad, but I think the data supports this conclusion. It's a careful balance of trying to make money vs trying to sell a product. I simply don't see many items starting at $1 (which would ultimately guarantee a sell at the community determined value) but rather many items on sale for minimal discounts that ultimately do not sell. Perhaps my interpretation is wrong but going through the listings most equipment listings do not have any bids on them despite being listed for extended amounts of time. Audiogon is (fortunately/unfortunately) more of an "outlet store" with moderate discounts than a true "auction house" where bidding starts very low and value is determined by the community. IMHO. I respect all other opinions however. :) |
Phd, I agree with you that prices have been going up lately. Maybe it's due to the lowballers, maybe it's due to Audiogon's high fees, maybe it's due to the weakening dollar, I don't know for sure. It makes me wish I had held on to some gear so that I could sell it now for more $$$. :)
As for Bigby and Invenio78, I see that you are rather new here, welcome. That being said, maybe you should be on the sellers side of the fence for a while before you start seller bashing. As I tell my adult children, it is easy to tell someone on the other side of the fence how they should be living, especially when you have not been on that side of the fence. As someone who has been both a parent and a child, a buyer and a seller, I am able to understand what it's like to live on both sides of the fence.
There are good people and bad people on both sides of the fence. |
We're in a recession, it's a buyer's market. It's not outrageous for a 10 year old piece of equipment to go for 80% of list price. ? |
The truth is that Audiogon sellers "relative to other online auction sites" give very high starting prices. If you really want to sell something and want to see how much it is worth, put it in for $1 and see how much it goes for. I don't know what the non-selling auction percentage is on audiogon but it has to be quite high. I think this also has to do with the fact that many high end audio stores essentially use it as their online outlet. Meaning they are not offering "deals" just listing their inventory. We're in a recession, it's a buyer's market. It's not outrageous for a 10 year old piece of equipment to go for 80% of list price. You may think it's worth a lot, but when the market is saturated the price naturally should go down. I think people simply overvalue the worth of their equipment (which is natural) but if they were not afraid of the true value to the public they would just list if for $1 and see where it would sell (and it will sell this way) vs having the majority of auctions on this site simply time out. |
Can't justify a buyer offering hundreds less, especially if the seller is asking a reasonable price for his item. If you truly want something, just offer the full price and you have secured it for yourself. On the other side of the coin I have noticed that some sellers are asking a ridiculous amount of money for their gear as if they were trying to retire tomorrow. Right now there is a McCormack DNA-1 with silver upgrade, the seller is asking over two thousand dollars for it. A few years back I was selling those for $900.00 to $1200.00 plus shipping.
This is just an observation on my part and truthfully a seller can ask any price he or she wants, don't mean you will get it. Or possibly as I stated above the selling price was inflated so when low offers come in the seller will get exactly the amount they secretly had in mind. |
If someone is selling a second hand, 10-year-old amp that they used for 5-years for 50% off current list price, and I offer them 70% off current list price is that a low-ball offer?
I'm guessing they paid 50% list off when they bought it used. They must have gotten some use out of the amp over the past 5 years they owned it. Obviously my assumptions could be wrong, but I think they are pretty close. In any case, if they think my prce is too low, they do not have to sell it to me.
|
What's the big deal - if you don't like the price just don't sell it and ignore the offer! |
Getting low offers are more frequent than ever. Maybe that could explain the inflated prices you see on Audiogon lately. |
I'm not insulted by lowball offers, but I do wonder about outrageously low offers within minutes of a posting with a low price (eg, 40% off an item listed at the lowest price ever on the 'Gon). Kind of weird: does the buyer expect the seller to panic within minutes?
It is another matter, when an item has been up a month or two, since there is some indication that the market will not bear the asking price. At this point, I think it perfectly appropriate to offer a "would you consider" reduced price, and I sometimes do this myself.
Perhaps the trigger happy lowballers could exercise a bit of patience; that way, they wouldn't seem so ridiculous, and they might find a deal.
John |
There is also a cultural aspect to trading.
New Englanders tend to want to get their asking price.
As a New Yorker, the asking price is a starting point for negotiation. This is not disrespectful, but cultural.
I once was looking at a house in New England, and the owners would not budge on the price. A month later I got a call from the realtor saying that they had lowered their price. I made another offer, and the realtor said 'why are you doing that, they just lowered their price.'
I replied that they just gave me a new starting point.
We finally reached a deal.
If they had negotiated from their original price, I would have paid more.
Some people just won't pay retail even if that means the asking price on Audiogon.
. |
There is a Rouge Audio 88 Magnum that is on a 2nd flip since 9-15 when I sold it. |
I think there are competing forces here.
1) There really are folks who seem to offer 30% or so below going rate as soon as the ad comes out.
2) On the other hand, things go fast, particularly good things that are less than $2000.00. This means that if you don't offer quickly, you lose. Plus, the seller doesn't always offer at a going rate price, or doesn't consider condition or age. So I've offered as much as 10% off asking right as a sale goes online. I wouldn't say it was low-balling, but for a product I'm buying based only on reviews, I need to buy for a price that lets me resell for the same price or so.
Separately, when I first started this hobby, I wasn't in a financial position keep pouring as much money as I'd like to into it - this means that I've needed to buy and sell in order to fund my hobby. I would buy things that a) I would like to hear in my system and b) I know I can sell for a few hundred more than I paid. Sometimes, I would see a consignment piece at a local dealer that I knew would go for much more on Audiogon and made a little money that way, too. Nonetheless, I don't consider myself a "flipper" as half of my motivation was to hear the component I would buy in my system, and often I'd find that I'd keep it for years before reselling.
So in short, if you get an offer that's too low in your mind, just "cheerfully ignore" it. Some folks get offended if you ask them to absorb PayPal, some folks price their goods knowing that they'll come down by several hundred dollars.... |
If you don't think the item is worth it. Why offer anything at all for it then? Lowballers should stick to garage sales. |
This debate over who thinks low balling is OK and who doesn't is going to go on forever.
My only comment is for those few who suggested listing their product for "Buy It Now" so they won't get the low ballers. That's not a good idea. Many here, including myself, won't just sell to anyone. While we entertain offers, we also get to see who is interested. I won't sell to someone who has a history of negative feedback or seems difficult to deal with.
Happy Holidays! |
Regardless of what the offer is the seller always has the right to say NO. This is business, it's not personal.
I've made some lowish offers. I do this to get the ball rolling. And to my surprise, my first offer is sometimes accepted. |
I'm pretty new to Audiogon and fairly new to high end audio, so I don't have a lot of experience here. I have bought a pair of Sennheiser HD650s here and I'm very happy with them. I think I got a good deal and I hope the seller was happy as well. (I must give him positive feedback soon!)
I am looking for an amp right now in the sub-$2000 ballpark. That means I will try to pay a little less for some amps that are/have become available if possible. I may/will offer $1900 to $2000 for amps that are being offered for $2200 to $2400. I'm not doing it because I'm a cheapskate; I'm doing it because I'm at my upper limit. I may really want that amp, but I just cannot pay more. That is not disrespect to the seller. Rather it is my reality.
If I someday make you an offer, I will try to be respectful, but I will quite likely try to get a lower price. If I can save a couple hundred today, I will have a couple hundred more when I am able to upgrade to a nice CD player.
BTW....this site is awesome! I'm so happy I found it.
Michael |
I recently had to change my mind and renig on a prospective purchase of two mono amps that I have been looking for forever because of a tragic turn in my life that demanded my immediate attention and made it so I could not focus or afford the amps. The seller was first very upset when I backed out, but later sent his sympathy and understanding. Not the same as low offers but just thought I would say this.
For low offers, when I try to sell equipment I first, typically price at or below the current market value to ensure a quicker sale. So, typically I don't have much float on my price point for sale. So, I respond to the potential buyer that either my sale price is firm or counter with another price.
However, you all are aware of the art of negotiations. reading this subject post and subsequent responses, I noticed that many are acting as if they have never tried to purchase a car. Do you for one minute believe that dealers are actually listing the car for sale at the correct or lowest sale price? Of course not! So, you investigate what the sale price should really be by doing your homework. How much did the dealer actually pay for the car? Did the factory give the dealer some kickback incentives that if you knew about you could exploit in your negotiation? etc. there are many more. So, what makes me believe that the seller is listing their equipment here for a fair price and didn't escalate the price? There are just as many flippers on Audiogon as with any other site. They buy as low as possible and raise the price to very high prices and try to get as much as they can.
This low baller complaining goes both ways. I will pay only what I feel is a fair price and it is up to me to determine what that is. If I don't like the price (because I know the equipment isn't worth the listed price), I either walk away or offer something lower. That is not low balling in my opinion. The seller (many times me) can either accept the offer, negotiate something different or walk away also.
an item is worth what a person is willing to pay for it. It is really as simple as that. Look at the $150,000 cars out there. Or amps priced at $60,000 or higher. Speakers and other equipment also. Do you really feel they are worth that? and then look at the prices a year or so later on the used market for the same equipment. many times at least half of the price. So, we all know they weren't worth what the dealer was trying to sell them for. So, you negotiated a lower price. This isn't low balling, this is fair negotiations.
enjoy and Happy Holidays. |
Lately I get worse than lowball offers. I get offers and then they never come through with the cash. It happened to me twice in the last 2 weeks. That pisses me off! |
12-24-12: Rebelindiskyz
Ladies and Gents: It is the art of negotiation! Btw, it does not have to be a reseller who is offer a low price. I look at it this way: I walk to into a Car Dealership to buy a new car. She/He tells me the price, $30, 000. I listen to the pitch and then I say $20, 000! OK, would you listen to the pitch and then say $3000? Yes, that is how absurd some of these offers are. They don't offer you 60-80% of your asking price, I've had some offer 10-25% of my asking price. I've been buying and selling for over 10 years on Audiogon and over 20 years altogether, and there is no doubt in my mind that these silly offers have increased in the last few years. I really don't mind, I don't get upset, I actually find a lot of them quite amusing. For me, it adds entertainment to what otherwise can become boring, ordinary exchanges. |
Ladies and Gents: It is the art of negotiation! Btw, it does not have to be a reseller who is offer a low price. I look at it this way: I walk to into a Car Dealership to buy a new car. She/He tells me the price, $30, 000. I listen to the pitch and then I say $20, 000! Why because it is a starting point and I need to give myself room to adjust. In either case, your complaints are laughable. Tantamount to the butcher complaining his apron is dirty with blood. It's the nature of sales. Take it or leave it. |
Just ignore it ... what's the big deal and why take it personally? Everybody wants a STEAL. If they are serious, they will offer again or initate a conversation.
Several buyers ask why no counter when I never thought their initial offer was serious. Gave a FIRM counter and some accept it. |
