correction "we don't have any conversations with the *seller* about how they ship - (it's early yet) |
Brian, I appreciate you trying to show the reasons by giveing examples. We have shipped UPS, so far, with no problems, but we do exactly as you stated - double box the hell out of them - getting that package ready for battle. We have received stuff that has been falling out of the box, boxes punched by forklifts, and once- the tuner came in pieces, we could hear it rattling around before opening the box. This has brought up something for us to think about, currently, we don't have any conversations with the buyer about how they ship. We trust that they will package appropriately. I think that it's a good idea to state the clear expectations of "the refund and return" of damaged goods. If we have this conversation that we expect to get our $ back if the item arrives damaged in shipping - maybe that will trigger the seller to think more about how they package. Good things to think about. - thanks |
You get what you pay for. You want to pay for cheap ground service? Well, cheap service is what you paid for, and that is exactly what you will get. Do you also go to McDonalds and ponder why your $2.99 meal didn't quite get your 5 star rating? Cheap is cheap. ==================================================================== Fed Ex is more expensive than UPS? Absolutely NOT true. Are you trying to compare UPS ground to Fed Ex air? Will you also compare a new Chevy 'Vette to a Ford Festiva? "Hey, Chevy's cost too much, my econo box Ford only costs....." Compare the SAME type of service between UPS and Fed Ex and you will find the prices to be virtually the same (and often Fed Ex is LESS). ====================================================================OEM (factory) boxes? Most are a joke, and VERY few meet UPS (or our ground) ship requirements. "Yeah, but that's the (recycled tissue) box it came in". Save that sad story for someone else. Ground shipments (except for cables) need to be double boxed and quadruple packed (which is on the back of every UPS AWB/invoice). Why don't all mfr's do this? Labor, materials, space, and added ship cost (greater DIMS and more weight). In the long run it is cheaper to deal with a few claims (even if they are denied), than it is to pay extra (labor, materials, space, and added ship cost/greater DIMS and more weight), on hundreds, or even thousands of packages. When we shipped UPS ground, we spent approximately 20 minute to TWO HOURS per package (and this is with a dedicated ship area, which is more than roll of tape!, and $ thousands in ship tools and supplies and 17 years of shipping experience to make it faster than the average audiophile could ever do it in: http://www.hellohifi.com/packaging.html ). Are you willing to do something to achieve these results? No? THEN SEND YOUR PACKAGES BY AIR, and leave the guess work to the penny pinchers who have the time to deal with claims and faulty tracking systems. ====================================================================We send almost all items by DHL air. Average ship time?16 hours verses up to 7 business days by (+ a weekend sometimes) on ground shipments. Yes, DHL is more expensive than Fed Ex or UPS air, but they are so careful it's almost funny. Our customers like this service because we usually charge about HALF the regular rate, which in most cases means you're getting next day air for less than UPS or Fed Ex 3 day. We eat a lot of freight costs, but we don't have do extra packaging (in most cases) and we don't waste days of time on freight claims and dealing with pissed off customers. No one orders and insurance claim, they order working hifi! This is a worthwhile investment that no other dealer seems to have caught onto (yet). ====================================================================Mark the box with: "FRAGILE". LOL!!! We have over 20 rolls various types of fragile stickers (that's about $600 in damn stickers). Except for: "do not open with blade", which is for the customers benefit, these fragile stickers are for the insurance adjusters. If you do this, and have a claim, they will often tell you: "It doesn't matter that you marked it fragile". Don't mark it fragile and have a claim? Well, now they will ask you: "why didn't you mark it as fragile?" It's all a game to discourage you from pursuing your current claim and future claims. Ever have a claim with Fed Ex or DHL? We've had one with Fed Ex (very small) and one with DHL ($4400). Both were VERY easy (Fed Ex about 4 days and DHL about 10 days). UPS? We sued them in 1993 or 1994 after a claim dragged on for SEVEN MONTHS. They paid before the court date. We did have one claim paid "quickly" by UPS: they damaged a unit that was insured for $700. After two weeks they collected the unit for "inspection". After 5+ weeks I asked them the status on this claim. They asked me when they could collect the unit (which they had already picked up 5+ weeks ago!). Come to find out, they LOST IT after they picked it up for inspection (it's a good thing their heads are screwed on.....). They paid that claim quickly (UPS quick was about 8 weeks). We NO longer use UPS. Shipped ZERO UPS packages in 2000. Zero UPS problems! ONE UPS in 1999, ONE problem. 3 UPS in 1998, two problems. Before that? Don't ask, we used them daily, but we package ground shipments better than any dealer you will ever come across. You get what you pay for................ (geez, you actually read this entire post?!). "The Tightest Ship in the Shipping Business". Hmm. What ship are they (UPS) referring to? The Titanic? ====================================================================http://www.hellohifi.com/packaging.html |
So, we sold the speakers in perfect condition and shipped them by UPS insured (or so we thought). We double boxed them; double bubble wrapped them, added peanuts and insured each for the price of the pair. So about a week later the purchaser wrote and asked where the second speaker was. This was a site clue that it was about to hit the fan. Then my son figured out that the notice from the campus post office might be the speaker he shipped and there it was in all its magnificence. Unfortunately it looked as though the box had been dropped ten feet and then dragged behind a truck for a couple of miles. Now, we're reasonable people so he started yelling!!! The UPS people decided that if he opened the box to inspect that would be one charge and if he then shipped the speaker (broken or otherwise) he needed to pay for the shipping (again of course) because it had already been delivered (unfortunately to the shipper not the recipient) We are awaiting the outcome. But I no longer ship anything by UPS that is not double boxed and overstuffed so that the bastards can't destroy it when they play stereo ping-pong with it! |
I bought the insurance and they still refuse to pay. I shipped a pair of Klipsch Speakers (One of a kind specially built at the factory). They only sold for $900, but even though I bought the extra insurance they still refuse to pay for damage. The exteremely well reinforced cabinets were cracked and their excuse was that they were insuficiently packed. I can't really see how though since I used the factory shipping cartons and even lined them with extra styrofoam board (the kind they insulate houses with). Funny thing is Klispch ships these all around the world in the exact same packaging and for some reason, mine are insuficently packed whereas the ones from the factory are suficently packed. I'm working on getting a certified letter from Klipsch (awesome customer service) on the packing SOP, but I have a hunch I'll end up getting nowhere in the end. |
Yes, a few years ago I witnessed our UPS delivery man eat a Carl's Jr. sandwich and then he turned into Mr. Hanky. It was very scary to watch and I still have nightmares about it. |
I have had extremely bad luck with them. In the twenty or so times I have used them they have damaged four items, lost C.O.D. checks twice, forgot to get a C.O.D. check once, and were bastards about paying for two items they damaged and I had insurance for. |
ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS DOUBLE BOX! A little known fact is that UPS almost always honors damage claims if the package was double boxed. (The damage claim personnel probably are sworn to secrecy on this one; I accidentally overheard a conversation between UPS personnel in a non customer area of local UPS warehouse) |
After getting jacked around and having my claim denied by UPS I found an ally in Office Depot. The UPS claims inpsector denied my claim due to "insufficient packaging" on a pair of speakers packed in the original boxes. When I tried to escalate my claim the nice folks at UPS insisted that their decision was final and refused to provide me the names of UPS higher ups. So I turned to Office Depot where I originally shipped the speakers at in store UPS kiosk. An hour after speaking with a regional manager at Office Depot my phone lit up with calls from UPS headquarters in Atlanta and the regional UPS manager in Denver. They explained it was unusual for shipping damage to occur because of their "high customer service record" and promised they would promptly look into the matter. I agreed to allow a senior UPS inspector to review my claim and he agreed to authorize payment because "we value our relationship with Office Depot and we dont want to have any problems with them". Four months later I finally get my money only after Office Depot got involved again when no one at UPS could find the paperwork. I did learn from the UPS senior claims manager some very usefull information about what they call the small parcel environment. All packages are handled by automation and must be able to withstand a 2 foot drop. This should rule out most audio equipment and of course they don't tell us that when they accept our packages and sell us their worthless insurance. I will never use them again and I will certainly try to find shippers who hand load boxes marked "fragile". Any one got good shipping company references should let us all know. |
I am not a UPS apologist, but I work at a company that probably receives 15,000 pieces of merchandise per year. In 6 years I have had exactly 1 damage claim (which they paid) |
GREAT READING,hellohifi!! I dont really have a horror story although 3 years ago I bought my first "hi-end" turntable.A thorens TD-166.What I was most psyched about was it was coming with a Black Widow arm.Well U.P.S.dropped it on my porch on its side despite arrors pointing up and needless to say the Black Widow snapped in half.No big deal.My dealer probably just threw the table and all away when I sent it back to him.I have since purchaced a Rega-25 and that greeted me on its side also.Just about 100% of the time they leave the box on its side or upside down despite big red arrows.They either cant see or they just dont care.I still use them but not for anything fragile anymore. |
You get what you pay for. You want to pay for cheap ground service? Well, cheap service is what you paid for, and that is exactly what you will get. Do you also go to McDonalds and ponder why your $2.99 meal didn't quite get your 5 star rating? Cheap is cheap. ==================================================================== Fed Ex is more expensive than UPS? Absolutely NOT true. Are you trying to compare UPS ground to Fed Ex air? Will you also compare a new Chevy 'Vette to a Ford Festiva? "Hey, Chevy's cost too much, my econo box Ford only costs....." Compare the SAME type of service between UPS and Fed Ex and you will find the prices to be virtually the same (and often Fed Ex is LESS). ====================================================================OEM (factory) boxes? Most are a joke, and VERY few meet UPS (or our ground) ship requirements. "Yeah, but that's the (recycled tissue) box it came in". Save that sad story for someone else. Ground shipments (except for cables) need to be double boxed and quadruple packed (which is on the back of every UPS AWB/invoice). Why don't all mfr's do this? Labor, materials, space, and added ship cost (greater DIMS and more weight). In the long run it is cheaper to deal with a few claims (even if they are denied), than it is to pay extra (labor, materials, space, and added ship cost/greater DIMS and more weight), on hundreds, or even thousands of packages. When we shipped UPS ground, we spent approximately 20 minute to TWO HOURS per package (and this is with a dedicated ship area, which is more than roll of tape!, and $ thousands in ship tools and supplies and 17 years of shipping experience to make it faster than the average audiophile could ever do it in: http://www.hellohifi.com/packaging.html ). Are you willing to do something to achieve these results? No? THEN SEND YOUR PACKAGES BY AIR, and leave the guess work to the penny pinchers who have the time to deal with claims and faulty tracking systems. ====================================================================We send almost all items by DHL air. Average ship time?16 hours verses up to 7 business days by (+ a weekend sometimes) on ground shipments. Yes, DHL is more expensive than Fed Ex or UPS air, but they are so careful it's almost funny. Our customers like this service because we usually charge about HALF the regular rate, which in most cases means you're getting next day air for less than UPS or Fed Ex 3 day. We eat a lot of freight costs, but we don't have do extra packaging (in most cases) and we don't waste days of time on freight claims and dealing with pissed off customers. No one orders and insurance claim, they order working hifi! This is a worthwhile investment that no other dealer seems to have caught onto (yet). ====================================================================Mark the box with: "FRAGILE". LOL!!! We have over 20 rolls various types of fragile stickers (that's about $600 in damn stickers). Except for: "do not open with blade", which is for the customers benefit, these fragile stickers are for the insurance adjusters. If you do this, and have a claim, they will often tell you: "It doesn't matter that you marked it fragile". Don't mark it fragile and have a claim? Well, now they will ask you: "why didn't you mark it as fragile?" It's all a game to discourage you from pursuing your current claim and future claims. Ever have a claim with Fed Ex or DHL? We've had one with Fed Ex (very small) and one with DHL ($4400). Both were VERY easy (Fed Ex about 4 days and DHL about 10 days). UPS? We sued them in 1993 or 1994 after a claim dragged on for SEVEN MONTHS. They paid before the court date. We did have one claim paid "quickly" by UPS: they damaged a unit that was insured for $700. After two weeks they collected the unit for "inspection". After 5+ weeks I asked them the status on this claim. They asked me when they could collect the unit (which they had already picked up 5+ weeks ago!). Come to find out, they LOST IT after they picked it up for inspection (it's a good thing their heads are screwed on.....). They paid that claim quickly (UPS quick was about 8 weeks). We NO longer use UPS. Shipped ZERO UPS packages in 2000. Zero UPS problems! ONE UPS in 1999, ONE problem. 3 UPS in 1998, two problems. Before that? Don't ask, we used them daily, but we package ground shipments better than any dealer you will ever come across. You get what you pay for................ (geez, you actually read this entire post?!). "The Tightest Ship in the Shipping Business". Hmm. What ship are they (UPS) referring to? The Titanic? ====================================================================http://www.hellohifi.com/packaging.html |
oh yea, i shipped speakers to california, packed in bubble pack with foam lining around the interior of the box. of course it arrived damaged. and guess what, they don't insure for personal goods shipped to the u.s.a. i e-mailed the customer service reps and recieved a message confirming that they don't insure personal goods, sorry but to bad. the worst, never again. |
Here's the bottom line folks, you are protected by federal tariffs on inspected/non inspected items that have been insured. If UPS takes the item in and you have insured the item (especially if its OEM packaged) they are required by federal law to pay the claim in full. You must not take no for an answer and immediately contact everyone in the highest positions of authority. (the manager who inspects it at its point of arrival, the regional manager of that district. Your local district manager, the head of claims in the office that is processing etc.) I have never lost a claim due to persistance and sometimes just pushing the right individual. The more clearly you understand how the tariffs work the more leverage you have with them. The squeaky wheel will get the grease. Just dont take no for an answer. And whatever you do speak to no one else but a manager, not a shift supervisor or customer service attendant...manager only!! |
they could screw up a wet dream. |
I had a visit from UPS, and they finally gave in. But of course, they had to give me a hard time about it-- saying that the box was not big enough to absorb the shock! Then, about 40 minutes of arguing, he calls his office and says, "Why didn't you handle this before? The amp's been sitting here for the past two months. It's double-packaged, and the packing material looks fine!" Double-talking Jive!!! It's finally over and I can rest easy. As for Ysim's comment, I had written "FRAGILE" all over the box along with bright yellow "HEAVY" signs. There's no packing material that'll prevent damage when you drop a 90 lbs amplifier from 10 ft above the ground. I wonder how much longer you're going to have luck with UPS, but be careful. |
I would suggest eveyone to spend little more money to PACK & MARK the shipping carton right. Most of the high end equipments are very heavy for the size. Remember, UPS is a small package delivery company. UPS drivers don't carry a hand truck. Think about the packages being handled by many many different hands & transported to one, two even three thousand miles away. If you use right size carton & use good protection inside the carton & mark the carton like FRAGILE, HEAVY, you will have almost no problem with UPS. I just received a Mcintosh C-39 pre amp from Seattle to San Francisco. It took two days & received in perfect condition. |
Like everybody else, I have my own share of UPS horror stories, to the point where I now regard UPS as being an acronym for Unbelievably Poor Service. However, for the purposes of your claim, go to WWW.DEJANEWS.COM and enter UPS as the subject and REC.AUDIO.MARKETPLACE as the forum. You will then have a litany of UPS mishaps that should keep someone reading full time for the next two years. |
They were dropping off a package, and since I had a delivery pickup scheduled, the UPS guy took my package and said he was coming back to my building later and would bring the paperwork with him then. The scheduled delivery man would have had the paper work with him, but I thought it made sense that since he was here, why not give UPS the package now. Well... of course the paperwork didn't come, they did not (or would not?) know the name of the pickup man, and therefore couldn't find my tracking number or a record of my package being ever being picked up. It did arrive, but had the wrong COD amount. They have all sorts of regulations regarding not accepting different COD amounts (understandably), but since the mistake was theirs I thought that I could approve the correct amount and be done with it. But no...they wanted to send the package back to me, so that I could "verify" the correct COD amount! After hours of phone calls with incompetant "management" people they agreed to try to keep the package in the city I had shipped it to and collect the "new" COD amount, but (and get this) they could not contact their own office to arrange this because the phone line was busy all day. I told them that there must be some way to contact their own offices, and they said that there was no other way to reach it, and they needed another manager's help to finally find a way to reach the other office. I faxed a letter to them with the correct amount and after 2 days of phone calls and a big runaround they finally dropped of the package. It nearly blew the deal because of the delays. Needless to say.. I am not in a rush to use them again. Also, what's up with a "4 day" delivery that takes seven? A package is picked up at 10 a.m on a Wednesday, the 4 "business" days are Thurs, Fri, Mon, Tues, the package arrives at 6:30 p.m. Tues. Total delivery time: six and a half days. Did the package stop rolling at 5 p.m. Fri, and start rolling again at 9 a.m Mon?, I don't think so!! Did the 24 hrs of time from Thurs, pickup to the first "business" day (Fri.) not count. I assume that when someone picks up a package and is driving it to another location that it was "business", but I was wrong. What would you call it? |
A DAC I ordered off of Audiogon came UPS. The guy left it at my neighbors house. He opened it and found out he didn't order it. It sat at his house for 2 weeks until it dawned on him to check the label. He finally brought the unit over, and all is well now... BUT UPS said that they delivered the item, I said I never received it, and the person I was dealing with proceded to tell me I was untruthful about my claim and she took my information (supposedly). No one has called to follow up (6 weeks gone by). My neighbor and I spoke of the situation, since I received a package of his from a retailer about the same time frame that he brought over my DAC. 2 defects in 2 weeks time.... NEVER USE UPS unless you want to get a claim for defective equipment. |
Are you kidding ? This company is a perfect case for a class action lawsuit if I ever saw one. I have shipped 11 different items via UPS and 8 of them have been damaged. Some worse then others. It shows the disrespect their serviceman have for other peoples property. I switched to Fed Ex about 2 months ago and have had no problems with the 6 pieces I sent thus far. Avoid UPS at all costs and pass the word. |
Thanks for writing in guys! The unit I send out was a Golden Tube audio SE-100, power amp. It weighs about 90 lbs including boxes. It was in perfect shape before I sent it out. When the buyer received it, the tramsformer was sticking out to the side. UPS initially said it was not packed right-- funny since I used all the original packaging material and double-boxed it. I've been trying to fight them for the past couple months, but they never get back to you. I'm crossing my fingers for tomorrow's inspection. Hope I don't have to take any further action. |
Last August, they're delivery guy destroyed my Electrohome projecter by rolling the huge box from the truck to my living room entrance, flipping it over end to end!!! Not bringing it in using a dolly. The unit was a total loss. The box was ripped throughout and the projector in about six pieces. The only components which survived were the CRTs. Thank God!!! To sum it up, never trust UPS for anything! By the way, They also delivered a box of Maggies to a auto parts store across the street from my friends Hi-Fi store & just left them there on the back porch!! He already pre-paid on them too. |
Just make sure you save all the packing of the damaged piece, the supervisor will need to look at that. In any cases, it is going to be a long process to settle your claim, if UPS decides to pay you. Just curious, is it an amp, pre amp or speaker? Are they in original packing? |
Thus far I have had one cd player arrive damaged, and a seller's worst nightmare -- UPS left a COD package on my doorstep without collecting the money! How's that for bad. Lesson learned -- avoid UPS at all costs, don't invest money in them either. For a little more FedEx is much more efficient and courteous. UPS is the most disorganized, sloppy outfit I've ever seen. Another example -- received a first delivery notice, called UPS that same day and told them to hold the package at the delivery station for me to pick up the following day. Went there first thing the next morning (@ 7 a.m. when they opened). The guy tells me, "Oh, we haven't gotten around to processing this package, it's still on the truck so it's going to take me some time to find it." (!?!) Waited over 30 minutes for him to find the package, and despite knowing that I was in a hurry to get to work, he took his sweet ol' time, even taking other people's package pick-up requests at the same time he was "handling" mine! I've also cringed while watching employees literally heave what are obviously packages containing delicate electronics onto conveyer belts. Sorry for the rant, just my .02. Good luck w/your claim. |
