The funny part of this whole saga was the amp was not really damaged at all. The 300b tubes were shot and some scews were loose but that was about all. |
Congrats! Bob Backert is one of the best in the industry!
Enjoy! |
Well the amp finally got repaired by Bob Backert at RHB Sound Design (great guys to work with) and UPS paid for it. The UPS store in Lanoka, NJ helped a lot getting this done with UPS' insurance carrier.
Bob Backert knows UPS shipping well, he packed the Allnic double box into a huge box that had 4" of peanuts all around it. |
Ebm, This UPS story isn't actually as bad as it seems, because next nooz you will hear that it'll become part of NSA or NDAA |
If you want your money, you're going to have to take it back yourself. No ones going to hand it to you. At this point, you have enough info to do just that, but you have to act on it. Its your choice to make. |
Now lets tell good UPS stories . |
Care Audio knew of his background when I spoke with them. They knew he was selling off equipment to pay legal bills but never said anything.
Still no resolution to this. It is supposedly going to be repaired and returned to me but nothing yet. |
Jarrett: Zd542 hit the nail on the head when he said "its very likely that UPS will settle with you out of court". If you take UPS to small claims court, UPS will be forced to decide what will cost them less... pay you off... or have one of their employees step in front of a Judge and flunk the red face test when the Judge asks UPS to explain why they're alleging their under no obligation to transport the package safely. |
I also recommend you stay away from Care Audio in NJ as I contacted them before I bought the amp and they vouched for the seller then and still feel he is a "stand up guy." Well, is it possible he was a standup guy dealing with Care Audio? I don't understand how you can slam Care Audio for your problems? |
Time to kick ass and take names!! |
"So, now I need to wait out all of my consumer complaints and small claims cases. May just have to write this off. I also recommend you stay away from Care Audio in NJ as I contacted them before I bought the amp and they vouched for the seller then and still feel he is a "stand up guy."
Jarrett (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
I don't mean to repeat the same thing over again, but if you take UPS to small claims court, and do it the right way, I think you'll have at least 80% to win the case and your money back. Not only that, I think its very likely that UPS will settle with you out of court, before it even goes to trial. You have a very good case.
"04-15-15: Jarrett
Still no UPS inspection so I called them. They told me there will be no more inspections, they are finished."
Since you can't seem to make any progress with them, there's one more thing you can try, and it has a good chance of working. Call UPS again and don't act reasonable. (I'm not suggesting you yell at them and use profanity, or anything similar.). Just have the attitude that your getting your money back and that's all there is to it. Make it clear to them, that in no uncertain terms, that you are going to take them to small claims court if the issue is not resolved immediately. Also tell them that you're going to use a local court and they will have to send someone out to you if they want to defend themselves. They already know this. But whatÂ’s important is they now know that you are aware of how all this works. They'll settle. |
Still no UPS inspection so I called them. They told me there will be no more inspections, they are finished.
So, now I need to wait out all of my consumer complaints and small claims cases. May just have to write this off. I also recommend you stay away from Care Audio in NJ as I contacted them before I bought the amp and they vouched for the seller then and still feel he is a "stand up guy." |
Actually, I do think that the seller sent me a working amplifier. Before I bought the amp I contacted Sunil at Care Audio, where the amp was originally bought and asked about the seller:
"I cannot tell you what to do but Steve has come to my place a couple of times and I have gone to his place once."
Also, the damage to the amp is indicative of a long drop onto one corner of the box, which given it's 60 pound weight, would not be something done by the owner, just the shipper.
|
When I sold my TRL Samsons, I use YRC Freight. Both amps ship in one wooden crate. I arranged pickup from my home and the price was very reasonable.
I got quotes from Pilot, FedEx Freight, Craters & Freighters ... and YRC had the best package deal. Excellent service, online tracking and arrived on time. Will definitely use them again if necessary. |
This ups story goes back a few years but I sold through eBay a beautiful pair of Focal Electras to a guy in Maine. He refused the shipment because of damage to the boxes (original factory). I was sitting in my living room and heard this loud thump outside of the garage and saw one of the boxes laying on its side with the ups driver wheeling the other from the truck. They were so badly damaged that only a portion of the cardboard and no internal packing remained on one. The corner of the other was crushed so badly that one of the drivers was bent. One of the woofers was completely smashed in and it's frame was even bent, etc, etc, etc. Ups inspected them and verified that, indeed, a claim was warranted but, because it was considered a "freight" shipment I was entitled to only half of the declared value and I wasn't even allowed to keep what remained of the speakers or any of the un damaged parts. They were impossible to deal with and the process took over 2 months to resolve. They also destroyed an underwater camera housing about a year later and claimed that it was damaged before packaging. They finally paid but only after another battle. I will no longer use them myself and request those from whom I'm buying not to use them. |
Yes, often times less expensive than ups or fedex. I hope folks are reading this and benefit from what is being said here regarding the use of trucking companies instead of FedEx etc.... |
Don't know that FedEx is wonderful, Ebm, but I've never had an issue with them.
I had UPS damage an amp, and the claim went down a black hole.
As Grannyring notes, a dock to dock shipper like Pilot or BAX may be the way for larger items -- I did this once with a #300 pair of speakers and it worked great, for surprisingly cheap.
So while the samples are small, my experience convinces me to live without UPS in my audio life.
JOhn |
|
04-03-15: Zd542
I just figured them taking possession of the item was a prerequisite for any type of claim to be paid to you. Taking possession of the item is a prerequisite for any claim. However, the claim has nothing to do with the buyer. The claim is not paid to you, the buyer. The claim is paid to the seller, the person that bought the insurance. Crossing your fingers for the claim payout is only the seller's nightmare. The buyer had nothing to due with improper packing or shipping damage. |
I spoke with his arresting officer in NJ and his wages and everything else get garnished by the court. Jarrett- I hate to say it but the fact that the guy has an "arresting officer" says it all. I hope for your sake that he didn't send you a damaged amp in a damaged box and try to put UPS on the hook. |
"Actually, the normal claim process you cannot take the box to UPS/FedEx and ship it back. They have to send an agent to your home to inspect it and pick it up. I had this happen just about two months ago. The seller made arrangements for FedEx to come to my house and pick up the damaged unit. I had the seller return my money before I agreed to wait around for hours for FedEx to arrive. After all, he would not have shipped the package to me if I hadn't paid him first. The process works the same in reverse."
I know that they send someone out to look at the damages and to pick up the package. I just never thought about keeping the box until a refund was issued. I just figured them taking possession of the item was a prerequisite for any type of claim to be paid to you. That's good to know.
Just to note, I use Fedex ground for shipping audio components and the few claims I did have, got paid. And for the right amounts. Once it was established that there was, in fact, shipping damage, and confirmed what the real value of the item was (the items new list price, along with the price from the add or auction that it sold for), we got paid with no problems. I at least have to give them credit for that. Fedex did end up doing the right thing with all my claims. I think where some people have problems, is when they try to take advantage. I know people that always declare a value that is far more than what the item is worth. (I'm not saying that's the case here, its just a general observation.) |
The seller is responsible to work with you period. Do not let him off the hook.
Never, never, never, ship a heavy and expensive amp with UPS or Fedex. Always go to a trucking company like Pilot Freight and arrange for dock to dock delivery. You drop it off at the dock and the buyer picks it up at the dock. Your amp will be shrink wrapped to a pallet all by itself and it will stay on that pallet until the buyer picks it up. I do it all the time. It is the only way to ship a heavy and expensive piece of gear. UPS and Fedex will break it. It will get abused. It will get dropped, turned every which way from Adam, and dropped again.
They are not set up to handle heavy and fragile gear folks. I had too many broken amps show up to ever use them again on heavy gear. |
Next time use a credit card through PayPal. Problem solved.
I even got my money refunded when I bought from a crook and never received my purchase.
Paying with cash, check, money order is too risky these days, I only do it if I know the seller well. |
Well in my case the seller, which I didn't know upfront, has no money to refund back. I spoke with his arresting officer in NJ and his wages and everything else get garnished by the court.
Also, since the amp was damaged beyond repair, my holding on to it and not giving it back to UPS would have really not made any difference. I would just have a 60 pound doorstop sitting around.
UPS is supposed to be inspecting the amp today. |
04-03-15: Zd542
I didn't know you could do that. For the most part, though, I use Fedex Ground and not UPS, so they must have different rules. What do you do if the buyer doesn't accept the package? I'm guessing that you just wait until the box gets back to you first, and then file a claim. Actually, the normal claim process you cannot take the box to UPS/FedEx and ship it back. They have to send an agent to your home to inspect it and pick it up. I had this happen just about two months ago. The seller made arrangements for FedEx to come to my house and pick up the damaged unit. I had the seller return my money before I agreed to wait around for hours for FedEx to arrive. After all, he would not have shipped the package to me if I hadn't paid him first. The process works the same in reverse. So yes, I assisted the seller in filing his claim. I took photos of the box and unit, and spent 6 hours waiting for FedEx. However, I get my money refunded first. I have done this from the other end too. That is what being a good seller is all about. A buyer should not get screwed due to a shipping problem, that is the risk of the seller, who packed and took out the insurance. If a buyer refuses delivery because of a damaged looking box, I would ask them to take photos for me, then I would refund their money before I received the unit back. The seller waiting to process a claim through his insurance should not tie up the buyer. In my example, I received my money back a couple months ago. The seller received the item back, confirmed that it was malfunctioning, and sold it again, as is, stating that the left channel was malfunctiong, for just over half of what I paid for it. He is still waiting for the insurance claim to clear. Should the buyer be forced to wait 2, 3, 4 months or longer for a claim to process? I don't think so. |
"What would you do with no UPS??"
Use FedEx for my transactions, which is what I do already.
The rest, I'd let Amazon figure out!
John |
"04-01-15: Jmcgrogan2
Zd542, yes, the buyer should certainly help out the seller process his claim, and I have done that. However, the shipping company does not pick up the package and take it away until I have my money back. "
I didn't know you could do that. For the most part, though, I use Fedex Ground and not UPS, so they must have different rules. What do you do if the buyer doesn't accept the package? I'm guessing that you just wait until the box gets back to you first, and then file a claim. |
What would you do with no UPS?? |
Zd542, yes, the buyer should certainly help out the seller process his claim, and I have done that. However, the shipping company does not pick up the package and take it away until I have my money back.
Just as the seller doesn't ship until he is paid, the same process works in reverse. The package doesn't leave the buyer's care until his funds have been returned. It's really not that complicated. |
"04-01-15: Jmcgrogan2
Who paid for the insurance? Normally it is the seller/shipper. Whomever paid for the freight/insurance and has their name on the claim form, that is who should be dealing with the claim and UPS.
The seller needs to refund your money yesterday!!
Let him and UPS handle their problem."
Just to clarify that, its not really insurance. Well it is when you buy it, you find out its really not when you have a claim. They just charge you a fee based on your declared value. Its not an insurance contract of any kind.
"04-01-15: Jmcgrogan2
The seller's name is on the UPS paperwork, that means he is responsible for handling the claim. Which means that any money refunded will go to him."
For the most part, that's true. The buyer is responsible as well. They don't have to do as much, but there's a basic amount of cooperation that is required of the buyer. If you can get the seller to work with you and deal with UPS, one of the things that I do put the buyer at ease, and make the claim goes faster, is to tell the shipper that any refund goes directly to the buyer. I also give them all the info regarding the claim, so that they can check on things, wherever they want, without having to go through me. It also makes the claim go quicker. By not taking the refund check, It removes any type of unethical motive on the shippers behalf. It cuts the investigation time down.
But really, this is not something you should be worrying too much about. If you read one of those books I recommended in my first post, you'll just get all of your money back plus all expenses using small claims court. I wouldn't loose a minutes sleep over it. |
Jmcgroan2 is correct. It is the sellers responsibility to deal with UPS. You should receive a refund from the seller and be done with it! Been there done that! |
Ask the seller for a copy of all of his communications with UPS. |
The seller's name is on the UPS paperwork, that means he is responsible for handling the claim. Which means that any money refunded will go to him.
As a buyer, what happens between him and UPS is not your business. The seller did not send you the T1500 before you paid for it, you should not have released the T1500 back to UPS until you had your money returned. That's the way the system is designed to work.
Fussing with UPS and the insurance is not your problem, it is the seller's problem. I have dealt with this from both sides, the seller is screwing you, not UPS. |
Yes, the seller had the insurance, which I covered in my total payment. |
Who paid for the insurance? Normally it is the seller/shipper. Whomever paid for the freight/insurance and has their name on the claim form, that is who should be dealing with the claim and UPS.
The seller needs to refund your money yesterday!!
Let him and UPS handle their problem. |
So the amp is back at the UPS store. Here is an email I just got from the seller, petro1511:
"So they are calling in a fraud/security inspector. To open the box because they say the hole in the box is not the same as your pictures. And now the security guy has to open the box. And they also say you wanted the money for the claim and the amp. The inspector would be there end of the week they will call me. And BTW they don't want to deal with you anymore. Guy will open box. Inspect amp and then we go from there. You've done enough, I will deal with them and try to get a total loss claim."
It looks like UPS is claiming I damaged the amp myself and put a hole in the box to justify it. Gets better all the time. |
"03-30-15: Jarrett
Yes, I did file a small claims against UPS. I intend to also file against the UPS Store but that's in NJ and I am in Seattle."
This a very good thing for you. File a small claims suit in Seattle. The law is that wherever a company does business, even if its far away, they can be sued in a local court. UPS would have to send someone to Seattle. If they don't, you win by default. |
UPS- Unlimited Package Smashers |
Yes, I did file a small claims against UPS. I intend to also file against the UPS Store but that's in NJ and I am in Seattle. |
So the package has made it's way back east to Horsham, PA. Now the expected delivery date back to the UPS Store is April 6, one week from today. It's about 60 miles from Horsham to Lanoka Harbor NJ and UPS of course has no information why the delivery date has been pushed out so far. |
Jarrett, so it sounds as if you paid with check, wire transfer or money order.
Next time use a credit card through PayPal and you won't have to deal with this issue.
Yes, you may still receive damaged goods, but you would have your money back by now.
Dealing with the shipping company and insurance is not the buyer's problem. |
Jarrett- Your post is a little ambiguous, so pardon me if you know this. You may need to file small claims against UPS Store, which is an independent business, and UPS itself. |
Actually, this is the first instance of equipment damage I have experienced through any carrier and I have been doing this for 50 years.
As I see it, I was sold a working piece of equipment and I received a non-working unit. Either it was packed properly and UPS damaged it or it was not packed properly and the seller/UPS Store is liable. I suspect that the seller packed it himself since it was in the original Allnic shipping cartons and then dropped it at the UPS Store.
The amp is supposed to be back at the UPS Store Wednesday so I will wait until then to hear what the seller intends to do. Since the amp is certainly DOA, regardless of UPS' ridiculous "no external damage" assessment, one would expect the UPS Store to file an appeal but who knows.
I will be filing today a New Jersey Consumer and BBB complaint against the UPS Store and I have filed a small claims case in Seattle against the local UPS office. The small claims may be pointless but it's only $20 to file and you can do it by mail. |
I'm sorry but a stand up dealer would replace the unit and deal with UPS. Why should it be your problem to deal with damaged goods through shipping when you didn't ship it regardless of how well it was packaged? Many years back I shipped a TT that was double boxed and shipped as it was originally. It arrived to the buyer trashed, apparently dropped. I suppose I could have said to the buyer the tt is insured, you deal with UPS. I didn't I left it up to him to tell me how I could make it right for him. He requested a refund which I did. It's just bad business to leave the burden on the victim, in this case the purchaser. A cautionary emphasis would be that prior to accepting a package make certain there is no obvious damage and if so, do not accept! Rarely will you get the opportunity to open and inspect prior to signing. I do expect that the seller did require a signature for delivery? Justlisten sums it up nicely, NEVER ship back to UPS, that is just going to create a greater quagmire to an already unpleasant experience.
So far as UPS is concerned, since that incident I have not used them for ANY shipping, it was the 2nd incident for me. They finally paid up the insured amount but only after I pushed them hard and provided photos from the purchaser including an onsite inspection at this home and several phone conversations with their claims department. |
Jarrett,
Your cautionary tale is regrettable but not unfamiliar. IMO, your issue is not with the seller, but with UPS (only). The seller had it packed and shipped by a national carrier. How was he to know it would be damaged in shipment? Why should he now receive back a damaged amp? That's hardly fair! I agree with Rlwainwright that pickup is the best option. That way you can, in most cases, audition the item before you pay for it. I look for sellers within 400 miles of my home so that I can do just that. I know this advice doesn't help now but buying an amp from 3000 miles away DOES increase your chances of having the experience you describe.
No need to make responses that I'm overly cautious and many have had "wonderful experience" buying here on Audiogon and shipping thousands of miles without issue. Every transaction has the potential for disaster. I have never had a problem buying here but if a problem develops, it can be a nightmare and you end up blaming everyone. But again, your issue is with the shipper not the seller. I hope this ends well for you. |
Never had any problems in 40 years. |
"03-29-15: Syntax
I love UPS"
I think you forgot to take your meds. |
For items that might be damaged (I've had several tube amps destroyed by ground shipping) I ship FedEx 2nd day Air & over pack it - not cheap but a lot less handling involved. |
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One final recommendation - it it is at all feasible, DO NOT SHIP. I have driven up to 500 miles to pickup a piece of gear and found the time and expense well worth it.
And for gear like turntables, I simply will not ship at all. If it cannot be picked up, no sale will ensue...
-RW- |
