@holmz
Well, you already ’hit’ on it really.
I also have a SOTA (and yes, IMO, it’s a keeper) with A knife edge Jelco S850 MKII, and a Soundsmith MIMC cart. I’ve been toying with the idea of going MC with a Benz cart. I know some don’t like removable head shells, but I like mine, as I can swap in my mono cart, or another, or a MM/MI to MC easily, without the need for two arms. I also would love two arms, but I’m not getting rid of my SOTA.
The Soundsmith and Benz, both being low compliance carts, work well with the Jelco 850 which is right around 13-14g effective mass. A higher compliance cart probably would not work as well. Both my Soundsmith carts are a compliance of 10. Most Benz are 15 that I am looking at.
Thus, if you are looking at a very light effective mass arm (5-8g as example) your cart selection will be limited to higher compliance carts (20-28+/-g). On the other hand, if you are looking at medium to high mass arms, you will be limited to lower to medium compliance carts (10-22+/-). There are many who simply love low mass arms, and I get it per the carts they desire.
Now, this is simply ’in general’. Weight of the cart, etc. also comes into play.
Here is a good site which you can input many variables to see if a particular arm and cart will be acceptable together:
http://www.mh-audio.nl/Calculators/RF.html
My view is from a relative ’newby’ getting back into vinyl over the last few years. I’m sure others will have views with more years being active in vinyl. I had put my rig away over 25 years ago before getting back into it recently.
Just get a good quality arm regardless. Don’t skimp here if looking for something new.
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Get a lowish mass tonearm and add mass as needed to suit any cartridge. Then choose a tonearm based on other qualities such as bearings, ease of VTA and VTF adjustment, etc. Don’t overthink it.
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Dear @holmz : Look for no unipivot designs, no matters what. Even that you like stay away of knife bearing designs. Read carefully the tonearm manufacturer site information, is very important. Look for well damped tonearms. Medium mass is fine. Reading reviews from TAS or STPH could help too.
Now, even that your cartridges or any cartridge can be well matched about the resonance frequency ideal range same cartridges in different tonearm sounds a little different. Each tonearms it self vibrates/resonates different and are damped in different way but any good choice that you decide will performs really good. Today there are only a few tonearms that you could say: this is a bad tonearm. There are many tonearm manufacturerers.
Each one of us tonearm opinions come from our first hand experiences through our room/system that never is near the one you own, so be very carefully here and if you have near tonearm retailers then go to listen it and the same is you have audio friends near your place and I hope you already definied very specific targets for your system that can match it according your MUSIC/sound priorities You need this kind of reference and when listening to other systems or even in yours you need to know exactly what to look for in LP tracks to really know you are near your targets:
https://www.kuzma.si/tonearms
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@holmz - Since the RB3000 was recomemnded I would also suggest taking a look at the Audomods Arms
www.audiomods.co.uk
I've had a the old Classis Series 3 with the Micometer VTA for about 11 years and have no thoughts of changing it. The new Series 6 has many improvements
Jeff at Audiomods will answer any questions you have about his arms.
He can also make mounting plates to suite your turntable in many cases
His arms are superb, finely crafted and provide exceptional performance to any turntable
He can also recommend cartridges that match his arms perfectly
Hope that helps - Steve
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@holmz , You are getting some really great advice here. As a long term Sota user I would like to add some thoughts. There are several great arms out there that fit the Sota perfectly. As Lew suggests it is always better to stay on the light side as you can always add mass but taking it away can be tough. Your Sota suspension is tuned for a specific tonearm mass. Depending on the age of your table it can be done by adding/subtracting lead shot from a well or using a specifically weighted tonearm board. Once you buy the arm you want to use, weight the arm itself with all the parts attached. Do not weight the cable. Then call Donna at Sota with your Sota's serial number and the tonearm weight. She will supply you with the correct arm board.
Tonearms that I know work beautifully on the Sapphire and are of top notch design are the Kuzma 4 Point 9, the Origin Live arms, the Rega arms, the Audiomods arm , SME arms and the Schroder CB. There are very few cartridges out there that can not be made to work in any of these arms. IMHO the three best arms are the SME V, the Kuzma 4 Point9 and the Schroder CB. These three hit all design points I want to see in an arm. There are others out there like the Tri Planar which are great arms but will not fit the Sapphire without modifying the plinth.
Would upgrading the arm be worthwhile? I think so, particularly if you go with one of the three arms I mentioned. You will certainly be able to use more cartridges in the medium compliance range. Your SEAC arm is going to work best with something like a Koetsu, cartridges in the lowest compliance group.
One more point is that you can upgrade your Sota to the Eclipse drive system, the magnetic bearing, and even a vacuum system. Very few tables can take you that far.
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The Origin Live 'Illustrious' is a Tonearm I was demonstrated recently with a Sumiko Pearwood on a Garrad 401 in a light weight Plinth design.
I know the Garrard sound well, when it is mounted onto a Massey Plinth.
The marriage of all devices that have produced the assembly was for me extremely impressive, and I would like to think it had surpassed my old set up, as I do not recollect such a satisfying extraction from a recording that was enjoyed to this level, especially when additional ancillaries were utilized.
The owner of the 401 assembly recently sold their SME 20/12 and SME V Tonearm and was keen to receive a assessment from the local group of the new TT Set Up.
The Link is one I showed you previously, there is quite a bit of reading in this thread to discuss Tonearms and the choices that some have made for themselves.
I have referenced the Origin Live Brand a few times within this thread, and one user referred to, did not select it as their choice for a Tonearm, following it being used in demonstrations alongside other Models used as comparisons.
It just goes to show how a unique preference that a user is sensitive to, or the mounting method selected and preparation of the mounting methods might prove to be critical in influencing a decision being made for a purchase.
It does seem that the ears do the final talking when it comes to making such a decision.
A lengthier description of the set up used on the demonstration of the 401 can be found in the link.
I am a promoter of getting out and experiencing equipment, the lessons that can be learned from the shortest of excursions, can be instrumental in changing thoughts and philosophies on certain strongly held beliefs.
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@rauliruegas , Raul, I do not think the Reeds will fit on a Sota. Arms with VTA towers push the horizontal bearing to the out side edge of the tonearm well and the counter weight hits the outside edge before the arm gets to the run out groove. You would have to cut the plinth away for it to work.
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https://sotaturntables.com/services/updates-upgrades/
and the Eclipse upgrade that mijostyn posted.
mijostyn for what you posted you have very low knowledge level on the SAEC tonearm quality performance. Of course that if the 317 colorations is what the op likes then is up to him.
R.
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@mijostyn , got it but the Reed could work for the second tonearm that needs an external arm pod.
R.
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@rauliruegas , That is true, it is surface mounts and could be mounted on anything you can get to the right distance. Why on gods green earth would you ever consider an external arm pod? The tonearm and the platter have to be rigidly mounted on the same very stiff non resonant structure. Where am I wrong about the SEAC? Is it lighter than I think it is? It looks like a boat anchor. But, I do not know the exact spec so in reality you are right. HOWEVER, the arms I mentioned are a lot lighter and more flexible. (notice, I said nothing about sound) I know you like the SME V so don't screw this up.
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Another long-term Sapphire owner here, and I'm not sure why @rauliruegas is universally down on uni-pivot tonearms. My Graham Phantom is certainly an ideal match for my rig and has been bullet-proof reliable as well as easily repeatable for VTA on-the-fly adjustments. The 9" Supreme version I selected was a drop-in retrofit with a new Sota composite arm board. Set-up was a snap, too.
I also took advantage of Sota's Series V suspension and bearing/platter upgrade at the same time and couldn't be happier with the overall package. It's everything I expected in my upgrade from my old Magnepan Unitrac and more versatile by a wide margin.
Hope this helps you in your search and happy listening!
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Here is a good site which you can input many variables to see if a particular arm and cart will be acceptable together:
http://www.mh-audio.nl/Calculators/RF.html
That site also links to a database, but the SAEC WE317 is not listed. I says in the details that it is a high mass arm.
My view is from a relative ’newby’ getting back into vinyl over the last few years. I’m sure others will have views with more years being active in vinyl. I had put my rig away over 25 years ago before getting back into it recently.
Just get a good quality arm regardless. Don’t skimp here if looking for something new.
Thanks @bkeske I am trying to figure out whether my are is good quality to begin with. I think it is, or it is good enough. But I have no way of knowing… and don/t really know the effective mass.
I also took advantage of Sota's Series V suspension and bearing/platter upgrade at the same time and couldn't be happier with the overall package. It's everything I expected in my upgrade from my old Magnepan Unitrac and more versatile by a wide margin.
Thanks @effischer I’ll ask Christian about the V suspension.
@mijostyn I didn;t know you had a Sota.
@holmz , You are getting some really great advice here. As a long term Sota user I would like to add some thoughts. There are several great arms out there that fit the Sota perfectly. As Lew suggests it is always better to stay on the light side as you can always add mass but taking it away can be tough. Your Sota suspension is tuned for a specific tonearm mass. Depending on the age of your table it can be done by adding/subtracting lead shot from a well or using a specifically weighted tonearm board. Once you buy the arm you want to use, weight the arm itself with all the parts attached. Do not weight the cable. Then call Donna at Sota with your Sota's serial number and the tonearm weight. She will supply you with the correct arm board.
Donna Christian mentioned 2#15’ as the total tonearm, head shell, cartridge and board weight.
Tonearms that I know work beautifully on the Sapphire and are of top notch design are the Kuzma 4 Point 9, the Origin Live arms,
I would prefer to avoid the Origin Live based upon my good friend;s experience… (Difficult to set up, wired wrong, and customer service)
the Rega arms, the Audiomods arm , SME arms and the Schroder CB. There are very few cartridges out there that can not be made to work in any of these arms. IMHO the three best arms are the SME V, the Kuzma 4 Point9 and the Schroder CB.
My friend ended up with the Kuzma 4.9
These three hit all design points I want to see in an arm. There are others out there like the Tri Planar which are great arms but will not fit the Sapphire without modifying the plinth.
I would be wiling to modify the plinth to take a TriPlanner - If (and only If) it offered me some substantially better sound than the SAEC WE317. Maybe that is solely in terms of resonance?
Would upgrading the arm be worthwhile? I think so, particularly if you go with one of the three arms I mentioned. You will certainly be able to use more cartridges in the medium compliance range. Your SEAC arm is going to work best with something like a Koetsu, cartridges in the lowest compliance group.
I am not adverse to running a low compliance cartridge. The Garrott Bros p77i is working well.
I have had my eye on the Hana ML and some of the SoundSmith ones.
So if the SAEC arm is good, but only with a low compliance cartridge, then I think it is more cost effective to hunt for the cartridge that fits the arm’s effective mass??
One more point is that you can upgrade your Sota to the Eclipse drive system, the magnetic bearing, and even a vacuum system. Very few tables can take you that far
Christian and I (and Donna) have been in discussion for 1/2 year and the units are coming up to production soonish.
I borrowed the good doctor’s stethoscope yesterday to listen to whether the bearings were making sound… It was absolutely “dead” sounding.
@rauliruegas I am guess that the reed would be the 9.5” with the 223mm mounting radius?
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@holmz , I have a brand new Cosmos. I would wait on the Eclipse upgrade. When they unified the two components onto one chassis they chose a complicated switching algorithm that is not working well. The turntable runs fine but when you turn it on it has a tendency to switch speeds so you have to tap the button again to get back to 33. I am on my second unit now and it is better but nowhere near perfect. Personally I think they need to change the design and add a forth switch separating the on/off function from the speed change function. They'll get it figured out eventually.
As you suggest it would be much more efficient to just get a new cartridge. A low compliance Soundsmith would work great. The Sussurro mkII is the sweet spot in that part of the line. This is a much superior cartridge to any of the Hanas. It is very neutral and tracks great.
The Reeds will require modifying the plinth. It also might be too heavy but I am not sure. This also goes for the Tri Planar. If you like the Tri Planar you really should have a good look at the Schroder CB. The CB simple as it looks is IMHO a better arm. It is every bit as adjustable, has better bearings, and magnetic anti skate and damping that works fabulously well.
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As you suggest it would be much more efficient to just get a new cartridge. A low compliance Soundsmith would work great. The Sussurro mkII is the sweet spot in that part of the line. This is a much superior cartridge to any of the Hanas. It is very neutral and tracks great.
I have 49 dB of gain available, and the SS sheet on that cart says recommended gain=58-64 dB.
There is also a SUT with 11 dB of gain which would bump me to 60dB…
But can one even use a SUT on a MI or MM cart?
Good info on awaiting the ECLIPSE... and more waiting is OK.
They also said that a 230v version would be a bit longer. That was maybe Aug.Sep last year, and they anticipated Feb 2022… I assume that most things run behind with the global transport etc.
The Sussurro was apparently Schroder inspired.
I am using a DIY alloy plate for the arm board, so I should remove it and weigh it.
I do not recall if I removed any weights (or if there were any) in the pockets at the corners… so I’ll ask Christian in a week or two.
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On using a SUT with an MM or MI cartridge, generally the answer is no. The one exception is for a low output MI that also has a low internal impedance, which I think describes the Sussuro.
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@holmz , Frank Schroder and Peter Ledermann have been friends for a long time. Peter's demonstration rig has a Schroder Reference Arm on it and there must have been 4 or 5 other Schroder arms hanging around when I was there.
I am not sure about a transformer with Soundsmith cartridges but you certainly do no have enough gain for a Sussurro. But, what you do have enough gain for is The Voice which is nothing more than a high output Sussurro. Same stylus, same cantilever same drive mechanism. The only difference is the coils have more windings and the compliance is set higher which is the problem for you. At 22 um/mN it might be too soft for your arm. It works perfectly in the Schroder CB. Using the Certal plate I get a horizontal resonance frequency right at 8 Hz.
With a larger arm like that you really need a Phono stage suitable for low output cartridges. There are several really good high output cartridges out there but the majority of them are mid to high compliance. I think the Nagaoka MP 500 has a lower compliance but I am not sure. You have any number of directions you can head in. I am not a big transformer fan. I do not like more contacts and interconnects in the way of the very low signal from the cartridge. I think if you want to go with a low output cartridge you should upgrade your phono stage. If you want to go high level you will benefit from a lighter arm. @rauliruegas seems to know more about your arm than I do and he might be able to add more advice.
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Mijo, Have you listened to both The Voice and a Sussuro, in your home system or anywhere? I would be curious about a comparison, because I may want to add to my collection of MI cartridges, and I don't own a Soundsmith. If you think the Sussuro has nothing more to offer in terms of SQ except for a lower output V, that would be good to know. Since it's the iron that moves, I would think that more or fewer coils doesn't make much difference in MI types.
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Dear @mijostyn : Yes, you are rigth but when you can't mount a second tonearm in the same TT then the arm pod is an alternative.
I can tell you that I had a long first hand experiences with external arm pods when I was using my Denon's in naked fashion and maybe I was not aware of a detectable kind of distortions with, but this is me.
Now, as we can always we have to take the orthodox road with TT/tonearm mount.
R.
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Dear @mijostyn : SAEC tonearms are in the high mass range but the real problems are that's an undamped design and the knife bearing .
We can think that knife tonearm bearing is almost frictionless and a dream for that job but it's not and it's not not because I say it but truly experts as Dr. Sao Win puts a warning against knife bearings with his cartridge designs ( I owned his cartridge LOMC. ) and in indirect way SME did it too. Remember the old 3012? well came with vertical knife bearing and fortunatelly when SME ( that knows everything you can imagine on tonearms/TTs. ) was designed the V they just disappeared that knife bearing for very good reasons between those reasons is that at microscopic levels the knife tend to rattle.
holmz likes the 317 so is up to him at the end is him who needs to be satisfied not you or me.
R.
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Many years past I went through the motions of purchasing a new Tonearm.
As for all the experiences I encountered in demonstration rooms the TT's in use were always belt driven.
At some events I attended there were a broader range of TT's in use using the Tonearms had shortlisted.
Off which a SME IV and V were both candidates.
I was fortunate on one occasion at an event to be able to receive a demonstration of the SME V and IV used on two of the same decks.
I can't recollect if the Cart's were matching, and I am not even sure if I would have considered this as important at this stage on my interest in HiFi, too many years have passed now to even think about the smaller details.
The decision I made was because of the impressions made on this system and the choice I made was to purchase the SME IV Tonearm.
I still own this Tonearm today and a Tonearm I purchased at a later period being the Audiomods Series Five Micrometre.
These two Tonearms have been compared in my system on a PTP Solid Nine and each are very similar and each does not excel in front of the other in perceived performance or in how a music replay is able to be engaged with and enjoyed.
The SME IV has been loaned on a few occasions and the most recent loan was to a friend who was comparing it to other Tonearms, as they were looking to make a Tonearm purchase.
The SME IV on this occasion did not win their favour as a purchase item, even though they said it was not too far behind a few of the other Brands in the line up being demonstrated.
I no longer use the IV or the Series Five micrometre, I have a Tonearm in use that has surpassed both of these as a performer and comfortably wins my favour for how the music is engaged with during a replay.
Audio Seri
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I think if you want to go with a low output cartridge you should upgrade your phono stage.
That is my upgraded phonostage 😋
The old one (currently in use) is a 42dB ARC PH2 for MM only at 47k ohms..
I no longer use the IV or the Series Five micrometre, I have a Tonearm in use that has surpassed both of these as a performer and comfortably wins my favour for how the music is engaged with during a replay.
I am afraid to ask… ?
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@dover and what are your thoughts about a SUT with MM or MI?
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@holmz
According to Soundmsith you can use a step up transformer with their low ouput MI's. A 1:10 transformer will present 470ohms to the cartridge which is about as low as you can go.
A friend of mine has the Soundsmith Paua, which I really like - better than his Koetsu Rosewood & Lyra Helikon SL - but it needs to see about 800-900 ohms.
I would personally avoid using a step up transformer because of the lack of adjustment of impedance seen by the cartridge ( you can load transformers but that has issues ).
Also I feel any gains from going to the low output can easily be lost with the addition of a step up transformer and cables.
The 2 options are if you run a low output Sounsmith MI get their matching phono - its quite reasonable and stands up to both a Lamm & Linn Uphorik with the SS MI - I've tried them.
OR
Look at their medium and high output options.
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Dover, In the case of MC cartridges one can imagine an inherent advantage to low output, low internal impedance types. Did you perceive the same for the low output MIs from SoundSmith, compared to their higher output versions?
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@lewm
Short answer - don't know.
When Peter was in NZ a few years ago we had a listening session and I heard the whole range including the strain gauge.
Later on my friend bought the Paua, which is superb in my view, but I haven't done a side by side with a low output vs high output at the same price point.
It could be the low output are "quicker" - certainly the Paua sounds ike a very refined moving coil - like a Spendor speaker in presentation. Its a bit of a dilemma.
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@lewm , I have extensive experience with The Voice which I own and I have heard the Sussurro but not together in the same system. My feeling is that they sound very much the same. I did not have a chance to subject the Sussurro to a tracking test but I would bet The Voice would do better given it's higher compliance. The Voice is 2 grand less expensive but it really depends on your phono stage and what it works best with. The Voice is as neutral as a Windfeld Ti and even a better tracker. It never looses it composure which I really like. The build quality is as good or better than any cartridge I have used. I would have to make a really big jump to do better which I am in the process of doing. I ordered a Lyra Atlas Lambda SL from Galen Carol Audio in Texas ( he has no idea when it will show up) and it looks like I am going to get a Channel D Seta L Plus phono stage. It can be switched back and forth between voltage and current (transimpedance) modes. It is even better than the Lino C. The only down side is that it is not as versatile. If the Lyra is as good as everyone says it is I'll only need one setup. I'll save my old ARC to play 78's
@rauliruegas , This is true but holmz was asking our advise indicating that he is a little uncomfortable making the decision on his own. You are absolutely right about the knife edge bearing. It can rattle because the contact area is much larger thus the pressure on any point of the bearing is lower, it is free to vibrate. The Kuzma 4 Points focus all their vertical mass on two needle points. The contact surface is much smaller than a knife edge thus the pressure at the points is much higher so they do not rattle. They are also locked in place horizontally. Since you told Holmz that his vertical bearing sucks I don't have to be the bad guy this time:-)))
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<everyone> I appreciate all the back dialogue on the carts.
Since you told Holmz that his vertical bearing sucks I don't have to be the bad guy this time:-)))
What does this knife-edge rattling sound like?
(Having a two arm table would be great to hear the differences back to back.)
I don’t care for sibilant sounds…
(nor “graininess”, which seemed like it was around when I was ruining the old class A/B amp, and matching preamp, but has since left with the tube line stage and amp(s) around the y turn of the millennium.)
The current set up wit the SE317 and p77i is not too sibilant… well a few LPs are… but they were much worse in the past. So it very liveable now, and quiet nice overall.
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Yes, you are rigth but when you can't mount a second tonearm in the same TT then the arm pod is an alternative...
@rauliruegas
I'm quite surprise that why in another thread you strongly disagree of using outboard arm pod on VPI non suspended table but you suggested arm pod for a suspended turntable, a SOTA turntable?
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A friend and myself have been comparing Two Identical Brand Cart's being the Ortofon Kontrapunk B, each of these were believed to have less than 300 Hours of use.
A Third Cart' was also used, which is a rebuilt K'b.
Two Tonearms with detachable Headshells were set up on a Plinth that has a well thought out servicing and mounting for a GL 75 (Saucepan Chassis Modification )
The Tonearms in use was a carefully serviced SME 3009 and the Tonearm Model I use today.
The 3009 was not able to produce a sound from the MC that was attractive, both K'bs were used to verify if the condition was repeatable.
When the Pivot Bearing Design Tonearm was used the whole presentation immediately corrected and was a very attractive presentation.
The 3009 owner commenced the process of considering changing their Tonearm and in the end ordered a Tonearm the same as my model.
Today the same person is using a 12" Tonearm as their preferred Model with a different Cart' to the K'b.
I don't know if a Knife Edge Bearing can be detected in use, but the SME 3009 does not work with for the betterment of the K'b Cart' when set up on a Bespoke Built GL 75 TT on a dedicated mounting rack and sub plinth structure.
A K'b Cart', might not function at its best, if other SME Models and other Brands Models with similar designs to the 3009 are used with it, but that is conjecture and not useful the best evaluation and assessment of the impressions made, is produced when the ears are the tool and have encountered the items in use.
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- Was the Ortofon Kontrapunk B lack of performance related to compliance (And the arm’s effective mass)?
- Or tone arm bearings?
- Or something else?
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Dear @holmz . The gentleman in the other thread was and is a true rookie on analog issues and an external tower/arm pod will be to complicated for him.
The suspended or not suspended TT designs matters nothing about.
But for all your posts including this " ask " for me already tell that in this specific analog regards you are not very away of that gentleman.
Look any " audiophile " that's " happy " with a SAEC entry level tonearm and talking of sibilants where no one refered to and that own a tonearm with an internal wire coming from 1982 speaks alone for your knowledge levels on this specific analog regards. Additional to that seems to me that your system has not yet a high resolution with LPs playing.
Your last post makes no sense to me and you took the question for an almost " no one " information.
To each his own. As I told mijos is you who have to stay satisfied with what you change or what you buy. No one is perfect in audio or knows everything about audio and normally we learn from our frecuent mistakes and sometimes is the only way to learn, if you don't make mistakes your analog systems always will " lives " in the mediocrity/average like today. Rigth now your true enemy is no one but you for the knowledge level you have. All of us pass through the " ignorance " first steps in the ladder of learning and step by step we all learn and that learn means that you have a really fun/emotional analog audio times in the near future and this is good for you: enjoy it.
It's enough for me here.
R.
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It sounds like I should give up trying to understand it…
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The K'b is not the ideal compliance for the SME 3009, the comparison was to allow for my friend to hear the K'b that they had purchased in an alternate Tonearm, and to gauge if there was anything tobe concerned about the purchased Cart', hence I bought my K'b.
I could have brought the SME IV and Audiomods Series V, but the get together was mainly to show the K'b in a different arm.
If the intention was to gauge the best arm, I would have brought the other Tonearms along, and made a longer period available for the investigations.
As said, I don't know if a Knife Edge Bearing can be detected in use, but the SME 3009 does not work with for the betterment of the K'b Cart' in the system and environment the demonstration took place.
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I did see a Kuzma 4.9 for sale.
What would that do in how the sound is manifested? Or not?
And I think it will fit a Sota sapphire.
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@holmz
Excellent tonearm, should fit the Sota.
The Kuzma 4Points are very quick, transparent and importantly very easy to set up and adjust. It would be a massive upgrade on your SAEC - more detail, quicker, more dynamic. The 4Point is a medium mass arm which means it will suit a wide variety of cartridges. A SOTA/4Point combo would be very hard to beat without spending a significant amount more - its a combination that should satisfy you for years.
If I was in your position I would not look at a new TT, I would get your SOTA serviced, and updated if you want and add the 4Point - then you are done for many years.
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Excellent tonearm, should fit the Sota.
Yeah @dover a friend tried the “Origin Live” for almost a year, and he told me that it was motocrossing out of the groove difficult to get set up.
He said the 4.9 fit his Sota and took 20 minutes to set up.
So it is known working solution. However he is using a VanDenHul which is super high compliance (super limber).
I’ll likely call SoundSmith to figure out which cartridges will work with it, as I am coming from a high mass arm.
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Does any know whether there are any measurements like this for the SAEC we317 arm, that would enlighten me as to how a different arm would have the quieter bearings?
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@holmz , all of the arms mentioned above have quiet bearings unless they have been damaged. The real issue with bearings is play. The tonearm has to hold the cartridge rigidly allowing only two degrees of freedom. This is why unipivot arms are not recommended by many of us. The Graham arm mentioned above is a stabilized (by magnets) unipivot arm and has a great reputation. My problem with it is price. I do not think it represents a reasonable value. The same is true of the Basis arms which are not really unipivots either. They are bipivots or unipivots stabilized by a secondary bearing. They do not IMHO represent a reasonable value as there are many arms of equivalent (maybe even better) performance at a much lower price.
The tonearms I personally like best on the Sota are the SME V, the Kuzma 4 Point 9 and the Schroder CB. The Kuzma has one issue and that is the tonearm cable exits about the tonearm board and interferes with the dust cover. The other arms have cables that exit below the tonearm board resulting in a cleaner installation. I personally chose the Schroder CB for my Cosmos and could not be happier. This year at AXPONA Sota will be demonstrating with the Schroder CB. Peter Ledermann is totally invested in Schroder tonearms for what it is worth. He demonstrates with a Schroder Reference.
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Copy @mijostyn he first step is for me to figure out whether a new arm would make a notable difference.
(I know that the CB-9 would fit just fine.)
Or if I would be better off just shoving that money into a better cartridge.
One actual tone arm designer fellow has said that it would be noticeable, but not massive and suggested just going with a upgrade in cart.
Last night I spoke with a dealer that mentioned that my line stage after my phono amp also has 30dB of gain, so i should not worry about needing any more gain on the phono stage.
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Dear @holmz : " how would I know if the upgrade is worthwhile? "
"" it offered me some substantially better sound than the SAEC WE317. ""
""" What would that do in how the sound is manifested? """
"""" first step is for me to figure out whether a new arm would make a notable difference. "
Those are your statements from your first post to the last that no one not even you can have a precise answer. Is useless asking again and again same " question ".
I think that almost all the posts here already gave you all what any one could need to decide about a change or not of tonearm.
You can have the answers you are looking for till you have the new tonearm in your room/system and make several tests against your tonearm/cartridge today combination. There is no other way, just common sense. Or decide not to change it. Is up to you.
You have not that kind of common sense due to your low knowledge level on that issue and the only way to learn is by your own: testing and testing, etc, etc. Even you posted about:
""""" It sounds like I should give up trying to understand it. """
Go for other cartridge, you are satisfied with your arm. LOMC cartridges always are a learning lesson, try it and you will learn.
R.
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Raul is right. At some point you just have to jump into the water. It is what we all do.
Whether or not you hear a difference depends on how bad your situation is now and how good your hearing is. None of us can determine this.
Your line stage gain is not the issue. It is the signal to noise ratio of your phono stage. Your line stage will be more than happy to amplify all the nose.
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Raul is right. At some point you just have to jump into the water. It is what we all do.
That was sort of the question @mijostyn … whether there were any measurements that showed the bearing chatter.
I suspect most just go for sonics, fewer are interested in whether there are actual resonances.
I’ll go slowly until I get the measurement gear and the LP.
Thanks!
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@holmz : " fewer are interested in whether there are actual resonances. "
Not really and I can say that many of us are the other way around.
Maybe our first target ( at least mine. ) choosing a tonearm is to choose a well damped design and the ones with tonearm removable headshell uses this design characteristics to mate in better way their cartridges testing it with different headshells.
SAEC tonearms were a non-damped design and depending of the cartridges mounted in the arm those non-damped resonances always change as change with well damped tonearms but the resonances ( that we can’t avoid. ) comes with different characteristics, more benings damaging the less the cartridge signal.
If you go for measurements as your main choice target then your choice must be the Rega RB300 or the Moerch DP6 that measured way better than SAEC.
I told you that I owned the top SAEC designs that are very good looking tonearms but terrible performers, the today " new " tonearm in reality is and old design with the same bad characteristics. I'm not questioning that SAEC is what you like, fine with me as your measurements too.
R.
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@rauliruegas @holmz , The way tonearms are dampened is a complicated issue with many different approaches. Some have fluid damping like the 4 Points others use magnets like my CB and the Graham arms. Many arms do pretty much nothing other than to stop their arms from ringing with damping materials like foam. How do you tell what works? There are not any good tests for this. I am not fond of having to depend on just listening but this is one situation where there is not anything else you can do. This is going to turn some heads but what I have been doing is comparing the analog performance against a digital file using music that was remastered at the same time in both formats. What I prefer cuts both ways but in general vinyl performance is very competitive in terms of dynamics, lack of sibilance and pitch stability. Noise is always higher with vinyl but that is expected. With a good record this does not seem to influence enjoyment. I can not help but think there is a psychological draw towards vinyl because of the tradition it represents. I have been flipping records since the age of 4 with extreme enjoyment. I have been an early adaptor all my life but I can not seem to get away from vinyl in spite of it's disadvantages and expense. You may be able to teach an old dog new tricks but, it is another problem getting him to stop the old ones.
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@rauliruegas @holmz , The way tonearms are dampened is a complicated issue with many different approaches. Some have fluid damping like the 4 Points others use magnets like my CB and the Graham arms. Many arms do pretty much nothing other than to stop their arms from ringing with damping materials like foam. How do you tell what works? There are not any good tests for this. I am not fond of having to depend on just listening but this is one situation where there is not anything else you can do. This is going to turn some heads but what I have been doing is comparing the analog performance against a digital file using music that was remastered at the same time in both formats. What I prefer cuts both ways but in general vinyl performance is very competitive in terms of dynamics, lack of sibilance and pitch stability. Noise is always higher with vinyl but that is expected. With a good record this does not seem to influence enjoyment. I can not help but think there is a psychological draw towards vinyl because of the tradition it represents. I have been flipping records since the age of 4 with extreme enjoyment. I have been an early adaptor all my life but I can not seem to get away from vinyl in spite of it's disadvantages and expense. You may be able to teach an old dog new tricks but, it is another problem getting him to stop the old ones.
^that^ sir, is brilliant.
We could probably take it a step further and digitize the analogue, and then difference that relative to the CD.
The only problem there is that the W&F needs to be dechirped to line up the analogue signal.
This sounds like a fun project. I’ll be looking at the ADC this weekend or early next week which is needed to digitize the analogue path.
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I found a second hand Schroder CB-9.
So I’ll make a new arm board to hold it.
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@holmz Great News that you are to try out a Tonearm that has an attraction to you. I am sure you will start to notice differences immediately and the curiosity will be further ignited, you will not be alone in this, my daily mantra is 'What If', my talk on HiFi yesterday was with my friend who is almost completed a design for a Tonearm that could become a marketable product.
I was with the individual when the concept was discussed with another Tonearm designer, I have been demonstrated it as it has evolved and have made suggestions of which one has been adopted.
Yesterday the discussion went to the methods that can be employed to allow it to show its full capabilities when set up, from Internal Wiring, Mounting and the entirety of the TT's Isolation, with the suggestions made and the shared ideas, it is a 'What If' moment, luckily there are proven methods known, and there are the required knowledge and materials on standby to allow the trials to be undertaken at short notice.
I have a 'What If' that might be worth considering for your own investigations and satisfying a curiosity.
A previous Post suggested the Rega RB 300 and this model or a derivative, could prove to be a very good experience if this is added to the 'What If' list.
I have already suggested that there is not a need to go to the expense of the SME V.
My suggestion for not going to the expense of the SME V was relating to the fact that a used purchase will most likely be the purchase method and that there are other used purchase Tonearms available that have proven to be very good competition to it and are not as near in the cost area, as they are in the matching the performance.
The RB300 Arm was introduced approx' 3 Years before the SME V was released, the RB 300 has a one piece Cast Arm Tube / Headshell and a Ball Race/Pivot Bearing Assembly, with other built in set up tools that are quite unique at the time of the launch.
Over the years there have been modifications added to the RB300 that have taken it to new levels of performance and are have been quite affordable to adopt, I am sure a Tonearm can be found with much of the modification work done.
It is quite possible that the Rega Brand of TT's along with the RB300 was a tremendous success and the media was all over it with positive appraisals, terms such as, outstanding, exceptional. there has been nothing like it before, are commonly found to describe it, combine this support for the RB300 along side the support on offer from the HiFi Retail chains, to elaborate, my recollected experiences of this period when I read the media and visited HiFi retailers is that not many were offering anything else as a competition to Linn, it was a Hard Push toward CD, or then Linn or Rega, to discover a alternative of these two Brands, a HiFi Show was usually the place to find the more obscure products and buy direct from the producers or their agent.
As time has gone by the design of the RB300 has appeared in the Market Place supplied by other Brands with their Mod's on board and some of these Brands ended up producing their own Tonearms using the same infrastructure used for the RB300, in the earliest days Linn were quick to notice where the strengths of the RB300 were and utilised the Bearing used on the RB300 for a Tonearm that was costing approx' 3 x more to purchase.
SME were next in line to adopt the RB300 methods and produced the SME V, which did not materialise until three yeas after the launch of the RB300.
It is most likely that the SME V would not exist, with its Cast Arm Tube/Headshell and Ball Race/Pivot Bearing, if the RB300 was not produced and supplied the basis for a design. SME were thoroughly wed to their earlier designs and stood by them for almost 21 years following the release of the SME V, I don't see how they could have come up with the Cast Arm Tube as a concept, all their previous design intent was for a Tube used as a wand.
Origin Live and Audiomods, are other Brands that will not have materialised if not for the them being Brands that had carried out modification work on the RB300. At the least their popularity is mainly due to the RB300.
This modification work, evolved into the Two Brands being competitors with their own Tonearm Ranges, and as the RB300 is not too forward from the shadows the Tonearms in the Limelight are derivatives of the RB300.
A selection of the Origin Live range, AudioMods and SME V / IV are the competitors in the market place with the direct lineage to the RB300.
I own a AudioMods Series Five and SME IV , both are quite similar in their presentation and the way they influence the sound. I no longer use these, I have opted for a design that has been much more attractive to myself when used.
As for the OP, I feel there is a very good learning and satisfying experience to be encountered if they can try a RB300 or a Derivative within their system.
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