Another “How to choose an arm” question

@rauliruegas  ​​@holmz , The way tonearms are dampened is a complicated issue with many different approaches. Some have fluid damping like the 4 Points others use magnets like my CB and the Graham arms. Many arms do pretty much nothing other than to stop their arms from ringing with damping materials like foam.  How do you tell what works? There are not any good tests for this. I am not fond of having to depend on just listening but this is one situation where there is not anything else you can do. This is going to turn some heads but what I have been doing is comparing the analog performance against a digital file using music that was remastered at the same time in both formats. What I prefer cuts both ways but in general vinyl performance is very competitive in terms of dynamics, lack of sibilance and pitch stability. Noise is always higher with vinyl but that is expected. With a good record this does not seem to influence enjoyment. I can not help but think there is a psychological draw towards vinyl because of the tradition it represents. I have been flipping records since the age of 4 with extreme enjoyment. I have been an early adaptor all my life but I can not seem to get away from vinyl in spite of it's disadvantages and expense. You may be able to teach an old dog new tricks but, it is another problem getting him to stop the old ones. 

^that^ sir, is brilliant.

We could probably take it a step further and digitize the analogue, and then difference that relative to the CD.
The only problem there is that the W&F needs to be dechirped to line up the analogue signal.

This sounds like a fun project. I’ll be looking at the ADC this weekend or early next week which is needed to digitize the analogue path.

I found a second hand Schroder CB-9.
So I’ll make a new arm board to hold it.

I did see a Kuzma 4.9 for sale.

What would that do in how the sound is manifested? Or not?

And I think it will fit a Sota sapphire.

Excellent tonearm, should fit the Sota.

Yeah @dover a friend tried the “Origin Live” for almost a year, and he told me that it was motocrossing out of the groove difficult to get set up.
He said the 4.9 fit his Sota and took 20 minutes to set up.

So it is known working solution. However he is using a VanDenHul which is super high compliance (super limber).

I’ll likely call SoundSmith to figure out which cartridges will work with it, as I am coming from a high mass arm.

It’s ANZAC day in the antipodes, but I swung by the local aluminium place today.
The sign said closed, but the shed door was open. 😃
The fellow was working on his “hot rod”, and I got an off cut of 10mm thick alloy.

I can get that shaped to fit into the Sota, and the three screw holes that attach it to the table.
Then later I can mark out the 222mm spindle distance.

The F.S./Thrax info says use a 24-25mm diameter hole… so I’ll see if there is a 15/16 Forstner bit, or reamer.
I’ll  just go slow and bore the hole on a drill press allowing the bit to cool occasionally.

Maybe I need to start a thread on how to pick out a cartridge next 😋

Copy @mijostyn he first step is for me to figure out whether a new arm would make a notable difference.
(I know that the CB-9 would fit just fine.)

Or if I would be better off just shoving that money into a better cartridge.

One actual tone arm designer fellow has said that it would be noticeable, but not massive and suggested just going with a upgrade in cart.

 

Last night I spoke with a dealer that mentioned that my line stage after my phono amp also has 30dB of gain, so i should not worry about needing any more gain on the phono stage.

I'm sure the observations and possibly the banter were a nice distraction from the HiFi Interest. If you ever need a High Quality Aesthetic Paint Coating applied to a item that is owned, I am sure the Hot Rod owner can direct you.

Always good to have a chat with like minded people.
He indicated surprise that I knew what a Caterham was.

Here is a good site which you can input many variables to see if a particular arm and cart will be acceptable together:

http://www.mh-audio.nl/Calculators/RF.html

 

That site also links to a database, but the SAEC WE317 is not listed. I says in the details that it is a high mass arm.  

My view is from a relative ’newby’ getting back into vinyl over the last few years. I’m sure others will have views with more years being active in vinyl. I had put my rig away over 25 years ago before getting back into it recently.

Just get a good quality arm regardless. Don’t skimp here if looking for something new.

Thanks @bkeske I am trying to figure out whether my are is good quality to begin with. I think it is, or it is good enough. But I have no way of knowing… and don/t really know the effective mass.

 

I also took advantage of Sota's Series V suspension and bearing/platter upgrade at the same time and couldn't be happier with the overall package.  It's everything I expected in my upgrade from my old Magnepan Unitrac and more versatile by a wide margin.

Thanks @effischer I’ll ask Christian about the V suspension.

 

 

@mijostyn I didn;t know you had a Sota.

@holmz , You are getting some really great advice here. As a long term Sota user I would like to add some thoughts. There are several great arms out there that fit the Sota perfectly. As Lew suggests it is always better to stay on the light side as you can always add mass but taking it away can be tough. Your Sota suspension is tuned for a specific tonearm mass. Depending on the age of your table it can be done by adding/subtracting lead shot from a well or using a specifically weighted tonearm board. Once you buy the arm you want to use, weight the arm itself with all the parts attached. Do not weight the cable. Then call Donna at Sota with your Sota's serial number and the tonearm weight. She will supply you with the correct arm board.

Donna Christian mentioned 2#15’ as the total tonearm, head shell, cartridge and board weight.

Tonearms that I know work beautifully on the Sapphire and are of top notch design are the Kuzma 4 Point 9, the Origin Live arms,

I would prefer to avoid the Origin Live based upon my good friend;s experience… (Difficult to set up, wired wrong, and customer service)

the Rega arms, the Audiomods arm , SME arms and the Schroder CB. There are very few cartridges out there that can not be made to work in any of these arms. IMHO the three best arms are the SME V, the Kuzma 4 Point9 and the Schroder CB.

My friend ended up with the Kuzma 4.9

These three hit all design points I want to see in an arm. There are others out there like the Tri Planar which are great arms but will not fit the Sapphire without modifying the plinth.

I would be wiling to modify the plinth to take a TriPlanner - If (and only If) it offered me some substantially better sound than the SAEC WE317. Maybe that is solely in terms of resonance? 

Would upgrading the arm be worthwhile? I think so, particularly if you go with one of the three arms I mentioned. You will certainly be able to use more cartridges in the medium compliance range. Your SEAC arm is going to work best with something like a Koetsu, cartridges in the lowest compliance group. 

I am not adverse to running a low compliance cartridge. The Garrott Bros p77i is working well.

I have had my eye on the Hana ML and some of the SoundSmith ones.

So if the SAEC arm is good, but only with a low compliance cartridge, then I think it is more cost effective to hunt for the cartridge that fits the arm’s effective mass??

 

One more point is that you can upgrade your Sota to the Eclipse drive system, the magnetic bearing,  and even a vacuum system. Very few tables can take you that far

Christian and I (and Donna) have been in discussion for 1/2 year and the units are coming up to production soonish. 

I borrowed the good doctor’s stethoscope yesterday to listen to whether the bearings were making sound… It was absolutely “dead” sounding.

 

@rauliruegas I am guess that the reed would be the 9.5” with the 223mm mounting radius? 

As you suggest it would be much more efficient to just get a new cartridge. A low compliance Soundsmith would work great. The Sussurro mkII is the sweet spot in that part of the line. This is a much superior cartridge to any of the Hanas. It is very neutral and tracks great.

I have 49 dB of gain available, and the SS sheet on that cart says recommended gain=58-64 dB.

There is also a SUT with 11 dB of gain which would bump me to 60dB…
But can one even use a SUT on a MI or MM cart?

 

Good info on awaiting the ECLIPSE... and more waiting is OK.
They also said that a 230v version would be a bit longer. That was maybe Aug.Sep last year, and they anticipated Feb 2022… I assume that most things run behind with the global transport etc.

 

The Sussurro was apparently Schroder inspired.
I am using a DIY alloy plate for the arm board, so I should remove it and weigh it.
I do not recall if I removed any weights (or if there were any) in the pockets at the corners… so I’ll ask Christian in a week or two.

I think if you want to go with a low output cartridge you should upgrade your phono stage.

That is my upgraded phonostage 😋

The old one (currently in use) is a 42dB ARC PH2 for MM only at 47k ohms..

 

I no longer use the IV or the Series Five micrometre, I have a Tonearm in use that has surpassed both of these as a performer and comfortably wins my favour for how the music is engaged with during a replay.  

I am afraid to ask… ?

@dover and what are your thoughts about a SUT with MM or MI?

<everyone> I appreciate all the back dialogue on the carts.

 

Since you told Holmz that his vertical bearing sucks I don't have to be the bad guy this time:-)))

What does this knife-edge rattling sound like?
(Having a two arm table would be great to hear the differences back to back.)

 

I don’t care for sibilant sounds…
(nor “graininess”, which seemed like it was around when I was ruining the old class A/B amp, and matching preamp, but has since left with the tube line stage and amp(s) around the y turn of the millennium.)

The current set up wit the SE317 and p77i is not too sibilant… well a few LPs are… but they were much worse in the past. So it very liveable now, and quiet nice overall.

1. Was the Ortofon Kontrapunk B lack of performance related to compliance (And the arm’s effective mass)?
2. Or tone arm bearings?
3. Or something else?

It sounds like I should give up trying to understand it…

Does any know whether there are any measurements like this for the SAEC we317 arm, that would enlighten me as to how a different arm would have the quieter bearings?

 

 

Raul is right. At some point you just have to jump into the water. It is what we all do.

That was sort of the question @mijostyn … whether there were any measurements that showed the bearing chatter.
I suspect most just go for sonics, fewer are interested in whether there are actual resonances.

I’ll go slowly until I get the measurement gear and the LP.
 

Thanks! 

@mijostyn thanks mate!

 

@pindac 

@holmz Great News that you are to try out a Tonearm that has an attraction to you. I am sure you will start to notice differences immediately and the curiosity will be further ignited, you will not be alone in this, my daily mantra is 'What If', my talk on HiFi yesterday was with my friend who is almost completed a design for a Tonearm that could become a marketable product

Is it Alexy?
I was going to buy his, but the CB popped up used day before yesterday.

Dear @mijostyn  :  "  I do compare digital to analog versions of various recordings by synchronizing the record to the digital then just switch back and forth by remote. "

I was sort of talking about the idea of objective comparison, so they also would need to be sync’ed in phase/speed.

 

Comparing analog to digital versions in reality for me is really easy, the only main issue is that SPL be evenly for both formats.

One of my last comparisons was:

" Diana Krall - When I Look in Your Eyes "

….

In reality I'm not anal to take my time doing those comparisons. I'm  a way more interested to listen and enjoy my MUSIC sessions

That last part sort of goes contrary to the majorly of your posts, which talked about bearing chatter and noises from the arm, that was the subject of the thread title.

Yeah @pindac I probably made my last tome arm board in the ~85-88 timeframe.
I don’t know if I was advised to use aluminium, or just lucky, but it is likely a plate of 6061 or 7075.

My feeling is that it probably was an improvement over the MDF tonearm board.
But I am not overly sure.

I suspect that there were LOMC back then. However I was running an AQ606 or AQ404 cart.

There are a lot more cartridge options available now.

Dear @holmz  : No, it's not contrary what is happening is that you and me are at different step in the ladder way to enjoy MUSIC.

Your different threads/posts tells that with analog you are trying to go out of the " baby carry " when I'm already out of it years ago and now seated just enjoying MUSIC and posting in forums trying to help gentlemans that ask for. That's all. Nothing is contrary, you are in the fun learning ladder steps: good

Maybe you’re right, but I thought it was out of stroller/pram back in ~84 when I got the TT, arm and cart.
I did upgrade the preamp in ‘98, which had me go an old ARC phono stage, and recently a more advanced phono stage with more gain and loading options.