I currently have a Sota Saphire running an SAEC We317 arm (221mm spindle to pivot and 12 mm overhang).
That is running a Garrott Bros p77i, but I have been looking at some LOMC cartridges, as well as SoundSmith LO-MI, AT ART, etc.
How is one supposed to determine their current arm is good or not?
It sounds fine and I would think that the knife edge design is not prone to a lot of wear.
However it was recommend that I upgrade the arm… But how would I know “to what”, and how would I know if the upgrade is worthwhile?
I was looking at some DD tables to have a more expanded choice of arms that can be mounted, as the Sota is a bit restrictive in that regard. That is still on the cards as a possibility… however assuming that the Sota is a keeper, then how do I determine the arm’s adequacy, being “fit for purpose”?
@rauliruegas, now don't get lazy on us. This is after all an analog thread. Besides you will get the wrath of god for playing CDs. We all know that people with real HiFi's can not tolerate CDs. They are bad for your hearing and Coca Cola has imbedded advertising in them to make you thirsty, or was that Anheuser Busch?
Seriously, it took a while for everyone to get their act together when CDs first came out. The initial mastering and players were with few exceptions hideous. To many ears their reputation was permanently damaged which is not entirely fair. There is the problem of dynamic compression (loudness wars) but, that is done primarily with popular music not so much with jazz and classical. My Slipknot days are long gone. Some music is only available on CDs which I will buy and upload them to my hard drive. The computer then up-samples them on playback. This works quite nicely.
The vast majority of music is now stored in digital because it's performance will not decline with time and it is an enormous space saver. It then becomes easy to keep library copies in two locations avoiding a situation like the Universal Music Fire in which we lost a huge amount of music permanently.
I'm sure the observations and possibly the banter were a nice distraction from the HiFi Interest. If you ever need a High Quality Aesthetic Paint Coating applied to a item that is owned, I am sure the Hot Rod owner can direct you.
Always good to have a chat with like minded people.
He indicated surprise that I knew what a Caterham was.
@holmzThe searching out a Base Plate for the new Tonearm, landed you in the Company of a individual working on their Hot Rod / Custom Vehicle.
I'm sure the observations and possibly the banter were a nice distraction from the HiFi Interest. If you ever need a High Quality Aesthetic Paint Coating applied to a item that is owned, I am sure the Hot Rod owner can direct you.
I had a very good experience with a Custom Paint Shop when I was to have a TT Chassis recoated, I got the full treatment of being shown all the processes and was shown numerous samples.
I was very impressed with a work being done whilst I was there and settled for this as a 5 Coating Finish with Lacquer Application as well.
It’s ANZAC day in the antipodes, but I swung by the local aluminium place today.
The sign said closed, but the shed door was open. 😃
The fellow was working on his “hot rod”, and I got an off cut of 10mm thick alloy.
I can get that shaped to fit into the Sota, and the three screw holes that attach it to the table.
Then later I can mark out the 222mm spindle distance.
The F.S./Thrax info says use a 24-25mm diameter hole… so I’ll see if there is a 15/16 Forstner bit, or reamer.
I’ll just go slow and bore the hole on a drill press allowing the bit to cool occasionally.
Maybe I need to start a thread on how to pick out a cartridge next 😋
Dear @holmz : No, it's not contrary what is happening is that you and me are at different step in the ladder way to enjoy MUSIC.
Your different threads/posts tells that with analog you are trying to go out of the " baby carry " when I'm already out of it years ago and now seated just enjoying MUSIC and posting in forums trying to help gentlemans that ask for. That's all. Nothing is contrary, you are in the fun learning ladder steps: good
Maybe you’re right, but I thought it was out of stroller/pram back in ~84 when I got the TT, arm and cart.
I did upgrade the preamp in ‘98, which had me go an old ARC phono stage, and recently a more advanced phono stage with more gain and loading options.
Yeah @pindacI probably made my last tome arm board in the ~85-88 timeframe.
I don’t know if I was advised to use aluminium, or just lucky, but it is likely a plate of 6061 or 7075.
My feeling is that it probably was an improvement over the MDF tonearm board.
But I am not overly sure.
I suspect that there were LOMC back then. However I was running an AQ606 or AQ404 cart.
There are a lot more cartridge options available now.
@holmzYour curiosity that you are expressing is an exceptional trait and if nurtured in a way that steers you toward communication with and the possibility of meeting with supportive types of individuals, who are like minded and are happy to be confronted with your expression of intertest, I foresee a very good run of experiences to be encountered.
A lot will be learnt and ideas that are on board and thought of as being an important consideration and very relevant, can quickly be undone, the ears when receiving information that is attractive are great at putting a smile on ones face and cementing a person in a need to change direction.
From my experiences the worse that can happen to a individual who is taut about there ideas, is for them to be insular and not sharing in a broader range of experiences. The types that only have their viewpoints as the relevant methods and are locked in a obsession are to be avoided.
Lots of projects come from a mancave and are created by a type of person who very rarely is able to enjoy the fruits of there work or are able to see the beauty of the world outside.
The building of a HiFi System or the Upgrading of an in use System does take an amount of effort along with querying and foot work, not one person knows it all and those who do have an inkling of an idea, have quite a few hours behind them acquiring their level of understanding.
It is important for your wellbeing that you are not being forced to feel down trodden by these regular claims being made that your levels of understanding inadequate and your search is a wasteful.
Please note: there is only one unique measuring device available that can show when a piece of equipment is capable of making a individual feel they are experiencing a performance that is quite attractive and satisfying and worthy of being considered for further usage, and that unique measure is yourself and how you respond to the experience. If you are encountering experiences that enlighten you and make you smile, there is not another who can deny you this.
My HiFi journey has brought myself to date where my preferred Speakers are ESL's. These are the ones I find are best suited to the overall genre of music I have collected. I have tried to discover other Speakers to make myself feel better about a replay and have not yet discovered one. It looks like I am Wed to the ESL.
But there is an anomaly where the ESL does not get me to where I want to be with a genre of music, even though I use the ESL there is a missing moment and I have to occasionally recreate what is missing.
To elaborate, I was introduced to Blues Music in my early teens first white man copy cat and then old school Chicago Type Blues, as I grew into a Older Teen I was able to travel and see live acts, of which a Blues orientated group would be y preferred over a rock or punk type band.
My memories of live Blues played through a PA Speaker is indelible and there is not a ESL able to raise an imagination to simulate the live experiences.
I have a 25ish year old set of Tannoy Cabinet Stand Mount Speakers that are kept for this reason, they occasionally get mounted on a few stools and are used in the main system.
The use of the Tannoy Speakers and the replay of Blues Music is just such an enjoyable encounter, the colouration from the cabinets and poor mounting are just so right for the imagining a Live Venue standing in close proximity to a PA Speaker Set Up.
Strangely the set up is as HiFi as any other set up, the equipment used upstream from the Speakers are unquestionably designed to perform to very the high standards, and I am sure if I was to dig out info on the Speakers, there will have been a time in their existence that they were rated to a high standard, Tannoy is capable of receiving these accolades.
The last time the speaker was in use was in late 2021 and they remained in place for use for more than six months, it was only a social event that was the cause of the other speakers to be hooked up.
When it comes to creating a System it is very important for a person to find the place where the equipment is use is proving to be the most satisfying and pleasurable to be attached to, this can only really be assessed if the equipment is able to create a presentation that is thoroughly enjoyed.
There is no guarantee finding this place will kerb a curiosity, but it will guarantee that a regularly witnessed obsessional desire to endlessly off load equipment and bring in alternatives is able to be avoided.
The knowing a system will produce a place, where one is contented in their knowing it will create a happy place during a replay, is a protection against the usual reaching out to take the red hot tip of a poker and be left feeling burned again.
Dear @mijostyn : " There are times when vinyl wins. " Rigth.
I don't know you but as time goes on I'm a little reluctant to use my time with all the protocolo need it to listen LPs against that " monkey " sliding the CD with out worring of nothin: just MUSIC and full great peace and happiness in mind.
Dear @holmz : No, it's not contrary what is happening is that you and me are at different step in the ladder way to enjoy MUSIC.
Your different threads/posts tells that with analog you are trying to go out of the " baby carry " when I'm already out of it years ago and now seated just enjoying MUSIC and posting in forums trying to help gentlemans that ask for. That's all. Nothing is contrary, you are in the fun learning ladder steps: good.
I have compared a TT Set Up the a CD Set Up on quite a few occasions and more recently in a another owned system, I was fortunate to be able to have a first time experience of trying out three sources as a comparison, where the finding were reassuring to myself.
A comparison took place of Technics SP10R > Glanz Arm > Miyajima Cart', a CD Source from Wadia and the EAR Acute and a latest generation Linn Streamer and the outcome was quite a surprise for me.
As said this is not my first Rodeo when it comes to experiencing a Vinyl LP Source and CD Source as a comparison. I have a history of doing comparisons between a Vinyl LP Source and CD Source going back tothe 90's and these continued through to to the time I have been a user of CD Source within my system.
Since having a CD Source in my system, I have also been able to carry out comparisons of my CD Set Up in comparison to a selection of owned TT's with differing Tonearms and Cartridges as ancillaries.
As this thread is about ideas on selecting a Tonearm I will try and keep the recollections of the experiences focused on the Tonearms that have been used.
In my listening environment, there is a dedicated method in place to mount a TT and a CDT > DAC. Each method for mounting has be carried using methods that have shown there is a noticeable attraction to the use of a Support Material and method chosen for the mounting.
I have compared Three of my owned Tonearms on two different Motor Drive Design TT's.
The Idler Drive TT, as far as I am concerned is mounted into its final plinth material and there is not a need in my mind to make any further changes, the only further changes that can happen by myself, is to use other ancillaries, which on this TT may produce subtle changes to the perceived SQ on offer, whether for the better is an unknown.
The DD TT's are not in yet mounted in the Densified Wood Plinth Material I wish to see them mounted in, the required materials are owned and a job in waiting and sooon to be completed for one of the Brands.
One of the Brands is mounted in a material that is known to have a increased density and is recognised to have a improved Intrinsic Damping and Dissipation Properties, when compared to many materials selected for a Plinth. The material in use at present on the DD TT, is a less attractive material than a Densified Wood, but does have a proportion of the most desired properties .
My experiences have shown that when swapping the DD TT from the Plinth material in use and into a standard type plinth material, there is a noticeable difference and the material of choice that is in use at the present, is the most attractive to be used.
The use of the material used to produce a Plinth is quite a important consideration as it can have a remarkable impact on how the overall delivery of the LP replay is being perceived, especially if being assessed in a analytical listening discipline.
I expect my DD TT's to improve for the better when they are mounted in a Densified Wood Plinth, which will in my view make a further division between how they compare to a CD replay using the same recorded tracks.
A Idler Drive TT used with a Audiomods Tonearm and Hana SL Cartridge and AT-150 MLX Cart' is a fair match to my CD Source, once the SPL adjustments are worked out, the differences detected are not too far apart, and usually the most noticeable differences from recollection have been detected from the bass note. Also what has been of interest is that the MM that has not been used by myself regularly for many years, has shown I still have a attraction for it in use, and I can see myself returning to the use of MM's when the ears are a little less young.
The same Idler Drive TT used with a Audio Technica 1100 Tonearm and AT 150 MLX Cartridge are also has been perceived from recollections, as a fair match to my CD Source. Again, once the SPL adjustments are worked out, the differences detected are not too far apart, and remain as the previous, where the most noticeable differences from recollection have been detected from the Bass note.
The DD TT used in a not so commonly seen selected Plinth Material, and used with ancillaries such as a, Bespoke Produced Tonearm with a Bespoke Built MC Cart' has shown a remarkable improvement over the CD replays, there is very detectable differences for the better, when making recollections of the perceptions that were happening. The CD is undoubtedly perceived as an inferior medium being used, when replayed on my CD Source and compared to the Vinyl Source chosen.
This experience is also seconded by a EE friend who has carried out very high quality projects all areas within HiFi and are producers of DAC's and Phonostages.
This friend now uses the same DD TT and Tonearm as my own, mounted in a different plinth material and supported on a Wall Shelf . They are very much of the view the TT has seriously improved on their old TT and has shown a jump in SQ over their digital creations for CD replays. This friend has now most recently produced a Densified Wood Plinth, and is making reports since its introduction, that it has been a major breakthrough in an improvement, the impact of it has also encouraged them to produce a Sub Plinth Structure using the same materials.
The questions not answered is that, when it comes to identifying what part of the Vinyl LP Source and ancillaries are the main item responsible for the noticeable differences in the comparisons.
The SPL and Bass Note differences can be attributed to the recording ?
The fact that the perception using one Drive System with differing Tonearms and Cart's, but ending up with very acceptable similarities is looking to be more down to the ancillaries used with the LP and CD.
The additional experience where a Different Drive TT > Tonearm > Cart', produced the perception between two individuals in two different environments and mounting methods, that a very noticeable improvement was on offer from the Vinyl Source. In my view, suggests the very noticeable differences are due to the ancillaries used for the LP replay and have the capability of showing the CD Source in use is able to be perceived as a lesser recording medium or lesser quality source during the comparison.
During a allocation of time for a Comparison, I always after the A/B comparisons allow a source to play on for a extended period. It does not take long to relax into the replay and thoroughly enjoy it from any of the sources, the desire to change to the alternative replay option is not present or hankered for.
This is also the peasant surprise I got recently from the Linn Streamer used for a comparison session, I requested the Linn was allowed to replay a few tracks for their entirety, and within one track, I was settled and enjoying the replay to the point I made it known I could comfortably accept the idea of having the method set up in my system.
With the enjoyment factor present during the use of both the Vinyl LP Source and CD Source when used in my system, and the outcome being both are being equal in my evaluations, I see no need for myself to judge one as better than the other.
If I was needing to make a subjective evaluation based on my experiences, at present within my system, there is a method for using the Vinyl LP as a source that stands out as improved over the CD Source that is in use.
@rauliruegas, Isn't it fun! You bet people would be surprised how it cuts both ways. In reality it is not being fair to vinyl as it has a steep up hill battle but, better is better be it the format or the mastering. What I really love are some of the BluRay concerts that are available like Return to Forever "Returns." It is almost as good as being at the real concert. The audio is spectacular. Another one is Mike Stern's Paris Concert with Dave Weckyl on drums. There are times when vinyl wins. It is like driving a manual. It takes more skill even if it is not as fast. That makes it more fun. Any monkey can slide a disc into a drive:-)
Dear @mijostyn : " I do compare digital to analog versions of various recordings by synchronizing the record to the digital then just switch back and forth by remote. "
I was sort of talking about the idea of objective comparison, so they also would need to be sync’ed in phase/speed.
Comparing analog to digital versions in reality for me is really easy, the only main issue is that SPL be evenly for both formats.
One of my last comparisons was:
" Diana Krall - When I Look in Your Eyes "
….
In reality I'm not anal to take my time doing those comparisons. I'm a way more interested to listen and enjoy my MUSIC sessions
That last part sort of goes contrary to the majorly of your posts, which talked about bearing chatter and noises from the arm, that was the subject of the thread title.
Dear @mijostyn : " I do compare digital to analog versions of various recordings by synchronizing the record to the digital then just switch back and forth by remote. "
Comparing analog to digital versions in reality for me is really easy, the only main issue is that SPL be evenly for both formats.
One of my last comparisons was:
" Diana Krall - When I Look in Your Eyes "
No contest here. CD version is way superior and I was surprised with because I was almost sure the LP been better than the CD. So I took in count that both recording versions were mastered by different gentlemans.
In this particular recording you can listen the differences for the better in the CD at the 2 minutes to listen both versions.
As many of us I own several recordings in both formats and usually in Original Motion Picture Soundtrack the CDs outperforms the LP versions even if mastered by the same guy.
In reality I'm not anal to take my time doing those comparisons. I'm a way more interested to listen and enjoy my MUSIC sessions.
I am based in the UK, and not aware of a forum member known as Alexy.
The Tonearm I am referring to is at present a prototype, that has had a quantity of critical parts requiring outsourced machining, as it has been cost effective to do so, instead of having one part only produced.
The designer and builder/assembler also has the skills to machine a selection of the parts, but those parts that have to be 'minute dimension accurate' are best left to the services that work with the producing the tightest of tolerances daily and know the best practices.
The Geometry and Mechanical Interfaces are complete for the Tonearm.
It won't be long before the mechanical interfaces to be considered for the TT assembly of parts are to be addressed, and the Cart' alignment is given a extra TLC.
Then when all is ready and functioning as designed for, I will request that a second Tonearm is assembled with PC Triple C Internal Wire, as my most recent experience has shown that there is a special attribute for this wire when used as the signal path within a Tonearm.
I am hankering for, and really looking forward to the time when a Company produces a Cart' with this wire used for the coil and Lead Out Pins, it might just prove to be a New Break through.
@holmz Great News that you are to try out a Tonearm that has an attraction to you. I am sure you will start to notice differences immediately and the curiosity will be further ignited, you will not be alone in this, my daily mantra is 'What If', my talk on HiFi yesterday was with my friend who is almost completed a design for a Tonearm that could become a marketable product
Is it Alexy?
I was going to buy his, but the CB popped up used day before yesterday.
@holmz, I have a program called Pure Vinyl. I can digitize and catalog vinyl. I already have an ADC. My phono stage has been digitized for 20 some odd years now as my preamp is digital. Pure Vinyl also has digital RIAA correction but you have to have a phono stage with a flat or uncorrected out put. I have one on the way and plan to try it. There are people who think it is superior to analog correction. Yes, you can record multiple versions of any situation and compare but it does take a lot of time and work. I do compare digital to analog versions of various recordings by synchronizing the record to the digital then just switch back and forth by remote. This is pretty easy to do and a lot of fun. It also takes little time. You do have to purchase multiple versions of the same recording but I suspect most of us do that anyway.
Great that you got a CB. All the adjustment grub screws have nylon inserts so they do not leave marks. You only need a light touch when you tighten them. Don't over do it! Be very careful with the lead out wires. They are tougher than you think but still, having to rewire the entire arm would suck. The axis of the horizontal bearing has to be 222 mm from the spindle. A 1" hole will work perfectly. It really should be done on a drill press. If you have any issues feel free to message me.
@holmzGreat News that you are to try out a Tonearm that has an attraction to you. I am sure you will start to notice differences immediately and the curiosity will be further ignited, you will not be alone in this, my daily mantra is 'What If', my talk on HiFi yesterday was with my friend who is almost completed a design for a Tonearm that could become a marketable product.
I was with the individual when the concept was discussed with another Tonearm designer, I have been demonstrated it as it has evolved and have made suggestions of which one has been adopted.
Yesterday the discussion went to the methods that can be employed to allow it to show its full capabilities when set up, from Internal Wiring, Mounting and the entirety of the TT's Isolation, with the suggestions made and the shared ideas, it is a 'What If' moment, luckily there are proven methods known, and there are the required knowledge and materials on standby to allow the trials to be undertaken at short notice.
I have a 'What If' that might be worth considering for your own investigations and satisfying a curiosity.
A previous Post suggested the Rega RB 300 and this model or a derivative, could prove to be a very good experience if this is added to the 'What If' list.
I have already suggested that there is not a need to go to the expense of the SME V.
My suggestion for not going to the expense of the SME V was relating to the fact that a used purchase will most likely be the purchase method and that there are other used purchase Tonearms available that have proven to be very good competition to it and are not as near in the cost area, as they are in the matching the performance.
The RB300 Arm was introduced approx' 3 Years before the SME V was released, the RB 300 has a one piece Cast Arm Tube / Headshell and a Ball Race/Pivot Bearing Assembly, with other built in set up tools that are quite unique at the time of the launch.
Over the years there have been modifications added to the RB300 that have taken it to new levels of performance and are have been quite affordable to adopt, I am sure a Tonearm can be found with much of the modification work done.
It is quite possible that the Rega Brand of TT's along with the RB300 was a tremendous success and the media was all over it with positive appraisals, terms such as, outstanding, exceptional. there has been nothing like it before, are commonly found to describe it, combine this support for the RB300 along side the support on offer from the HiFi Retail chains, to elaborate, my recollected experiences of this period when I read the media and visited HiFi retailers is that not many were offering anything else as a competition to Linn, it was a Hard Push toward CD, or then Linn or Rega, to discover a alternative of these two Brands, a HiFi Show was usually the place to find the more obscure products and buy direct from the producers or their agent.
As time has gone by the design of the RB300 has appeared in the Market Place supplied by other Brands with their Mod's on board and some of these Brands ended up producing their own Tonearms using the same infrastructure used for the RB300, in the earliest days Linn were quick to notice where the strengths of the RB300 were and utilised the Bearing used on the RB300 for a Tonearm that was costing approx' 3 x more to purchase.
SME were next in line to adopt the RB300 methods and produced the SME V, which did not materialise until three yeas after the launch of the RB300.
It is most likely that the SME V would not exist, with its Cast Arm Tube/Headshell and Ball Race/Pivot Bearing, if the RB300 was not produced and supplied the basis for a design. SME were thoroughly wed to their earlier designs and stood by them for almost 21 years following the release of the SME V, I don't see how they could have come up with the Cast Arm Tube as a concept, all their previous design intent was for a Tube used as a wand.
Origin Live and Audiomods, are other Brands that will not have materialised if not for the them being Brands that had carried out modification work on the RB300. At the least their popularity is mainly due to the RB300.
This modification work, evolved into the Two Brands being competitors with their own Tonearm Ranges, and as the RB300 is not too forward from the shadows the Tonearms in the Limelight are derivatives of the RB300.
A selection of the Origin Live range, AudioMods and SME V / IV are the competitors in the market place with the direct lineage to the RB300.
I own a AudioMods Series Five and SME IV , both are quite similar in their presentation and the way they influence the sound. I no longer use these, I have opted for a design that has been much more attractive to myself when used.
As for the OP, I feel there is a very good learning and satisfying experience to be encountered if they can try a RB300 or a Derivative within their system.
@rauliruegas @holmz , The way tonearms are dampened is a complicated issue with many different approaches. Some have fluid damping like the 4 Points others use magnets like my CB and the Graham arms. Many arms do pretty much nothing other than to stop their arms from ringing with damping materials like foam. How do you tell what works? There are not any good tests for this. I am not fond of having to depend on just listening but this is one situation where there is not anything else you can do. This is going to turn some heads but what I have been doing is comparing the analog performance against a digital file using music that was remastered at the same time in both formats. What I prefer cuts both ways but in general vinyl performance is very competitive in terms of dynamics, lack of sibilance and pitch stability. Noise is always higher with vinyl but that is expected. With a good record this does not seem to influence enjoyment. I can not help but think there is a psychological draw towards vinyl because of the tradition it represents. I have been flipping records since the age of 4 with extreme enjoyment. I have been an early adaptor all my life but I can not seem to get away from vinyl in spite of it's disadvantages and expense. You may be able to teach an old dog new tricks but, it is another problem getting him to stop the old ones.
^that^ sir, is brilliant.
We could probably take it a step further and digitize the analogue, and then difference that relative to the CD.
The only problem there is that the W&F needs to be dechirped to line up the analogue signal.
This sounds like a fun project. I’ll be looking at the ADC this weekend or early next week which is needed to digitize the analogue path.
@rauliruegas@holmz, The way tonearms are dampened is a complicated issue with many different approaches. Some have fluid damping like the 4 Points others use magnets like my CB and the Graham arms. Many arms do pretty much nothing other than to stop their arms from ringing with damping materials like foam. How do you tell what works? There are not any good tests for this. I am not fond of having to depend on just listening but this is one situation where there is not anything else you can do. This is going to turn some heads but what I have been doing is comparing the analog performance against a digital file using music that was remastered at the same time in both formats. What I prefer cuts both ways but in general vinyl performance is very competitive in terms of dynamics, lack of sibilance and pitch stability. Noise is always higher with vinyl but that is expected. With a good record this does not seem to influence enjoyment. I can not help but think there is a psychological draw towards vinyl because of the tradition it represents. I have been flipping records since the age of 4 with extreme enjoyment. I have been an early adaptor all my life but I can not seem to get away from vinyl in spite of it's disadvantages and expense. You may be able to teach an old dog new tricks but, it is another problem getting him to stop the old ones.
@holmz : " fewer are interested in whether there are actual resonances. "
Not really and I can say that many of us are the other way around.
Maybe our first target ( at least mine. ) choosing a tonearm is to choose a well damped design and the ones with tonearm removable headshell uses this design characteristics to mate in better way their cartridges testing it with different headshells.
SAEC tonearms were a non-damped design and depending of the cartridges mounted in the arm those non-damped resonances always change as change with well damped tonearms but the resonances ( that we can’t avoid. ) comes with different characteristics, more benings damaging the less the cartridge signal.
If you go for measurements as your main choice target then your choice must be the Rega RB300 or the Moerch DP6 that measured way better than SAEC.
I told you that I owned the top SAEC designs that are very good looking tonearms but terrible performers, the today " new " tonearm in reality is and old design with the same bad characteristics. I'm not questioning that SAEC is what you like, fine with me as your measurements too.
Raul is right. At some point you just have to jump into the water. It is what we all do.
That was sort of the question @mijostyn … whether there were any measurements that showed the bearing chatter.
I suspect most just go for sonics, fewer are interested in whether there are actual resonances.
I’ll go slowly until I get the measurement gear and the LP.
Raul is right. At some point you just have to jump into the water. It is what we all do.
Whether or not you hear a difference depends on how bad your situation is now and how good your hearing is. None of us can determine this.
Your line stage gain is not the issue. It is the signal to noise ratio of your phono stage. Your line stage will be more than happy to amplify all the nose.
Dear @holmz : " how would I know if the upgrade is worthwhile? "
"" it offered me some substantially better sound than the SAEC WE317. ""
""" What would that do in how the sound is manifested? """
"""" first step is for me to figure out whether a new arm would make a notable difference. "
Those are your statements from your first post to the last that no one not even you can have a precise answer. Is useless asking again and again same " question ".
I think that almost all the posts here already gave you all what any one could need to decide about a change or not of tonearm.
You can have the answers you are looking for till you have the new tonearm in your room/system and make several tests against your tonearm/cartridge today combination. There is no other way, just common sense. Or decide not to change it. Is up to you.
You have not that kind of common sense due to your low knowledge level on that issue and the only way to learn is by your own: testing and testing, etc, etc. Even you posted about:
""""" It sounds like I should give up trying to understand it. """
Go for other cartridge, you are satisfied with your arm. LOMC cartridges always are a learning lesson, try it and you will learn.
Copy @mijostyn he first step is for me to figure out whether a new arm would make a notable difference.
(I know that the CB-9 would fit just fine.)
Or if I would be better off just shoving that money into a better cartridge.
One actual tone arm designer fellow has said that it would be noticeable, but not massive and suggested just going with a upgrade in cart.
Last night I spoke with a dealer that mentioned that my line stage after my phono amp also has 30dB of gain, so i should not worry about needing any more gain on the phono stage.
@holmz, all of the arms mentioned above have quiet bearings unless they have been damaged. The real issue with bearings is play. The tonearm has to hold the cartridge rigidly allowing only two degrees of freedom. This is why unipivot arms are not recommended by many of us. The Graham arm mentioned above is a stabilized (by magnets) unipivot arm and has a great reputation. My problem with it is price. I do not think it represents a reasonable value. The same is true of the Basis arms which are not really unipivots either. They are bipivots or unipivots stabilized by a secondary bearing. They do not IMHO represent a reasonable value as there are many arms of equivalent (maybe even better) performance at a much lower price.
The tonearms I personally like best on the Sota are the SME V, the Kuzma 4 Point 9 and the Schroder CB. The Kuzma has one issue and that is the tonearm cable exits about the tonearm board and interferes with the dust cover. The other arms have cables that exit below the tonearm board resulting in a cleaner installation. I personally chose the Schroder CB for my Cosmos and could not be happier. This year at AXPONA Sota will be demonstrating with the Schroder CB. Peter Ledermann is totally invested in Schroder tonearms for what it is worth. He demonstrates with a Schroder Reference.
Does any know whether there are any measurements like this for the SAEC we317 arm, that would enlighten me as to how a different arm would have the quieter bearings?
Yeah @dovera friend tried the “Origin Live” for almost a year, and he told me that it was motocrossing out of the groove difficult to get set up.
He said the 4.9 fit his Sota and took 20 minutes to set up.
So it is known working solution. However he is using a VanDenHul which is super high compliance (super limber).
I’ll likely call SoundSmith to figure out which cartridges will work with it, as I am coming from a high mass arm.
The Kuzma 4Points are very quick, transparent and importantly very easy to set up and adjust. It would be a massive upgrade on your SAEC - more detail, quicker, more dynamic. The 4Point is a medium mass arm which means it will suit a wide variety of cartridges. A SOTA/4Point combo would be very hard to beat without spending a significant amount more - its a combination that should satisfy you for years.
If I was in your position I would not look at a new TT, I would get your SOTA serviced, and updated if you want and add the 4Point - then you are done for many years.
The K'b is not the ideal compliance for the SME 3009, the comparison was to allow for my friend to hear the K'b that they had purchased in an alternate Tonearm, and to gauge if there was anything tobe concerned about the purchased Cart', hence I bought my K'b.
I could have brought the SME IV and Audiomods Series V, but the get together was mainly to show the K'b in a different arm.
If the intention was to gauge the best arm, I would have brought the other Tonearms along, and made a longer period available for the investigations.
As said, I don't know if a Knife Edge Bearing can be detected in use, but the SME 3009 does not work with for the betterment of the K'b Cart' in the system and environment the demonstration took place.
Dear @holmz . The gentleman in the other thread was and is a true rookie on analog issues and an external tower/arm pod will be to complicated for him.
The suspended or not suspended TT designs matters nothing about.
But for all your posts including this " ask " for me already tell that in this specific analog regards you are not very away of that gentleman.
Look any " audiophile " that's " happy " with a SAEC entry level tonearm and talking of sibilants where no one refered to and that own a tonearm with an internal wire coming from 1982 speaks alone for your knowledge levels on this specific analog regards. Additional to that seems to me that your system has not yet a high resolution with LPs playing.
Your last post makes no sense to me and you took the question for an almost " no one " information.
To each his own. As I told mijos is you who have to stay satisfied with what you change or what you buy. No one is perfect in audio or knows everything about audio and normally we learn from our frecuent mistakes and sometimes is the only way to learn, if you don't make mistakes your analog systems always will " lives " in the mediocrity/average like today. Rigth now your true enemy is no one but you for the knowledge level you have. All of us pass through the " ignorance " first steps in the ladder of learning and step by step we all learn and that learn means that you have a really fun/emotional analog audio times in the near future and this is good for you: enjoy it.
A friend and myself have been comparing Two Identical Brand Cart's being the Ortofon Kontrapunk B, each of these were believed to have less than 300 Hours of use.
A Third Cart' was also used, which is a rebuilt K'b.
Two Tonearms with detachable Headshells were set up on a Plinth that has a well thought out servicing and mounting for a GL 75 (Saucepan Chassis Modification )
The Tonearms in use was a carefully serviced SME 3009 and the Tonearm Model I use today.
The 3009 was not able to produce a sound from the MC that was attractive, both K'bs were used to verify if the condition was repeatable.
When the Pivot Bearing Design Tonearm was used the whole presentation immediately corrected and was a very attractive presentation.
The 3009 owner commenced the process of considering changing their Tonearm and in the end ordered a Tonearm the same as my model.
Today the same person is using a 12" Tonearm as their preferred Model with a different Cart' to the K'b.
I don't know if a Knife Edge Bearing can be detected in use, but the SME 3009 does not work with for the betterment of the K'b Cart' when set up on a Bespoke Built GL 75 TT on a dedicated mounting rack and sub plinth structure.
A K'b Cart', might not function at its best, if other SME Models and other Brands Models with similar designs to the 3009 are used with it, but that is conjecture and not useful the best evaluation and assessment of the impressions made, is produced when the ears are the tool and have encountered the items in use.
I'm quite surprise that why in another thread you strongly disagree of using outboard arm pod on VPI non suspended table but you suggested arm pod for a suspended turntable, a SOTA turntable?
<everyone> I appreciate all the back dialogue on the carts.
Since you told Holmz that his vertical bearing sucks I don't have to be the bad guy this time:-)))
What does this knife-edge rattling sound like?
(Having a two arm table would be great to hear the differences back to back.)
I don’t care for sibilant sounds…
(nor “graininess”, which seemed like it was around when I was ruining the old class A/B amp, and matching preamp, but has since left with the tube line stage and amp(s) around the y turn of the millennium.)
The current set up wit the SE317 and p77i is not too sibilant… well a few LPs are… but they were much worse in the past. So it very liveable now, and quiet nice overall.
@lewm, I have extensive experience with The Voice which I own and I have heard the Sussurro but not together in the same system. My feeling is that they sound very much the same. I did not have a chance to subject the Sussurro to a tracking test but I would bet The Voice would do better given it's higher compliance. The Voice is 2 grand less expensive but it really depends on your phono stage and what it works best with. The Voice is as neutral as a Windfeld Ti and even a better tracker. It never looses it composure which I really like. The build quality is as good or better than any cartridge I have used. I would have to make a really big jump to do better which I am in the process of doing. I ordered a Lyra Atlas Lambda SL from Galen Carol Audio in Texas ( he has no idea when it will show up) and it looks like I am going to get a Channel D Seta L Plus phono stage. It can be switched back and forth between voltage and current (transimpedance) modes. It is even better than the Lino C. The only down side is that it is not as versatile. If the Lyra is as good as everyone says it is I'll only need one setup. I'll save my old ARC to play 78's
@rauliruegas, This is true but holmz was asking our advise indicating that he is a little uncomfortable making the decision on his own. You are absolutely right about the knife edge bearing. It can rattle because the contact area is much larger thus the pressure on any point of the bearing is lower, it is free to vibrate. The Kuzma 4 Points focus all their vertical mass on two needle points. The contact surface is much smaller than a knife edge thus the pressure at the points is much higher so they do not rattle. They are also locked in place horizontally. Since you told Holmz that his vertical bearing sucks I don't have to be the bad guy this time:-)))
When Peter was in NZ a few years ago we had a listening session and I heard the whole range including the strain gauge.
Later on my friend bought the Paua, which is superb in my view, but I haven't done a side by side with a low output vs high output at the same price point.
It could be the low output are "quicker" - certainly the Paua sounds ike a very refined moving coil - like a Spendor speaker in presentation. Its a bit of a dilemma.
Dover, In the case of MC cartridges one can imagine an inherent advantage to low output, low internal impedance types. Did you perceive the same for the low output MIs from SoundSmith, compared to their higher output versions?
According to Soundmsith you can use a step up transformer with their low ouput MI's. A 1:10 transformer will present 470ohms to the cartridge which is about as low as you can go.
A friend of mine has the Soundsmith Paua, which I really like - better than his Koetsu Rosewood & Lyra Helikon SL - but it needs to see about 800-900 ohms.
I would personally avoid using a step up transformer because of the lack of adjustment of impedance seen by the cartridge ( you can load transformers but that has issues ).
Also I feel any gains from going to the low output can easily be lost with the addition of a step up transformer and cables.
The 2 options are if you run a low output Sounsmith MI get their matching phono - its quite reasonable and stands up to both a Lamm & Linn Uphorik with the SS MI - I've tried them.
I think if you want to go with a low output cartridge you should upgrade your phono stage.
That is my upgraded phonostage 😋
The old one (currently in use) is a 42dB ARC PH2 for MM only at 47k ohms..
I no longer use the IV or the Series Five micrometre, I have a Tonearm in use that has surpassed both of these as a performer and comfortably wins my favour for how the music is engaged with during a replay.
Many years past I went through the motions of purchasing a new Tonearm.
As for all the experiences I encountered in demonstration rooms the TT's in use were always belt driven.
At some events I attended there were a broader range of TT's in use using the Tonearms had shortlisted.
Off which a SME IV and V were both candidates.
I was fortunate on one occasion at an event to be able to receive a demonstration of the SME V and IV used on two of the same decks.
I can't recollect if the Cart's were matching, and I am not even sure if I would have considered this as important at this stage on my interest in HiFi, too many years have passed now to even think about the smaller details.
The decision I made was because of the impressions made on this system and the choice I made was to purchase the SME IV Tonearm.
I still own this Tonearm today and a Tonearm I purchased at a later period being the Audiomods Series Five Micrometre.
These two Tonearms have been compared in my system on a PTP Solid Nine and each are very similar and each does not excel in front of the other in perceived performance or in how a music replay is able to be engaged with and enjoyed.
The SME IV has been loaned on a few occasions and the most recent loan was to a friend who was comparing it to other Tonearms, as they were looking to make a Tonearm purchase.
The SME IV on this occasion did not win their favour as a purchase item, even though they said it was not too far behind a few of the other Brands in the line up being demonstrated.
I no longer use the IV or the Series Five micrometre, I have a Tonearm in use that has surpassed both of these as a performer and comfortably wins my favour for how the music is engaged with during a replay.
Dear @mijostyn : SAEC tonearms are in the high mass range but the real problems are that's an undamped design and the knife bearing .
We can think that knife tonearm bearing is almost frictionless and a dream for that job but it's not and it's not not because I say it but truly experts as Dr. Sao Win puts a warning against knife bearings with his cartridge designs ( I owned his cartridge LOMC. ) and in indirect way SME did it too. Remember the old 3012? well came with vertical knife bearing and fortunatelly when SME ( that knows everything you can imagine on tonearms/TTs. ) was designed the V they just disappeared that knife bearing for very good reasons between those reasons is that at microscopic levels the knife tend to rattle.
holmz likes the 317 so is up to him at the end is him who needs to be satisfied not you or me.
Dear @mijostyn : Yes, you are rigth but when you can't mount a second tonearm in the same TT then the arm pod is an alternative.
I can tell you that I had a long first hand experiences with external arm pods when I was using my Denon's in naked fashion and maybe I was not aware of a detectable kind of distortions with, but this is me.
Now, as we can always we have to take the orthodox road with TT/tonearm mount.
Mijo, Have you listened to both The Voice and a Sussuro, in your home system or anywhere? I would be curious about a comparison, because I may want to add to my collection of MI cartridges, and I don't own a Soundsmith. If you think the Sussuro has nothing more to offer in terms of SQ except for a lower output V, that would be good to know. Since it's the iron that moves, I would think that more or fewer coils doesn't make much difference in MI types.
@holmz, Frank Schroder and Peter Ledermann have been friends for a long time. Peter's demonstration rig has a Schroder Reference Arm on it and there must have been 4 or 5 other Schroder arms hanging around when I was there.
I am not sure about a transformer with Soundsmith cartridges but you certainly do no have enough gain for a Sussurro. But, what you do have enough gain for is The Voice which is nothing more than a high output Sussurro. Same stylus, same cantilever same drive mechanism. The only difference is the coils have more windings and the compliance is set higher which is the problem for you. At 22 um/mN it might be too soft for your arm. It works perfectly in the Schroder CB. Using the Certal plate I get a horizontal resonance frequency right at 8 Hz.
With a larger arm like that you really need a Phono stage suitable for low output cartridges. There are several really good high output cartridges out there but the majority of them are mid to high compliance. I think the Nagaoka MP 500 has a lower compliance but I am not sure. You have any number of directions you can head in. I am not a big transformer fan. I do not like more contacts and interconnects in the way of the very low signal from the cartridge. I think if you want to go with a low output cartridge you should upgrade your phono stage. If you want to go high level you will benefit from a lighter arm. @rauliruegasseems to know more about your arm than I do and he might be able to add more advice.
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