Another “How to choose an arm” question

@holmz Great News that you are to try out a Tonearm that has an attraction to you. I am sure you will start to notice differences immediately and the curiosity will be further ignited, you will not be alone in this, my daily mantra is 'What If', my talk on HiFi yesterday was with my friend who is almost completed a design for a Tonearm that could become a marketable product.

I was with the individual when the concept was discussed with another Tonearm designer, I have been demonstrated it as it has evolved and have made suggestions of which one has been adopted. 

Yesterday the discussion went to the methods that can be employed to allow it to show its full capabilities when set up, from Internal Wiring, Mounting and the entirety of the TT's Isolation, with the suggestions made and the shared ideas, it is a 'What If' moment, luckily there are proven methods known, and there are the required knowledge and materials on standby to allow the trials to be undertaken at short notice.

I have a 'What If' that might be worth considering for your own investigations and satisfying a curiosity.

A previous Post suggested the Rega RB 300 and this model or a derivative, could prove to be a very good experience if this is added to the 'What If' list.

I have already suggested that there is not a need to go to the expense of the SME V.

My suggestion for not going to the expense of the SME V was relating to the fact that a used purchase will most likely be the purchase method and that there are other used purchase Tonearms available that have proven to be very good competition to it and are not as near in the cost area, as they are in the matching the  performance.

The RB300 Arm was introduced approx' 3 Years before the SME V was released, the RB 300 has a one piece Cast Arm Tube / Headshell and a Ball Race/Pivot Bearing Assembly, with other built in set up tools that are quite unique at the time of the launch.

Over the years there have been modifications added to the RB300 that have taken it to new levels of performance and are have been quite affordable to adopt, I am sure a Tonearm can be found with much of the modification work done.

It is quite possible that the Rega Brand of TT's along with the RB300 was a tremendous success and the media was all over it with positive appraisals, terms such as, outstanding, exceptional. there has been nothing like it before, are commonly found to describe it, combine this support for the RB300 along side the support on offer from the HiFi Retail chains, to elaborate, my recollected experiences of this period when I read the media and visited HiFi retailers is that not many were offering anything else as a competition to Linn, it was a Hard Push toward CD, or then Linn or Rega, to discover a alternative of these two Brands, a HiFi Show was usually the  place to find the more obscure products and buy direct from the producers or their agent.   

As time has gone by the design of the RB300 has appeared in the Market Place supplied by other Brands with their Mod's on board and some of these Brands ended up producing their own Tonearms using the same infrastructure used for the RB300, in the earliest days Linn were quick to notice where the strengths of the RB300 were and utilised the Bearing used on the RB300 for a Tonearm that was costing approx' 3 x more to purchase.

SME were next in line to adopt the RB300 methods and produced the SME V, which did not materialise until three yeas after the launch of the RB300.

It is most likely that the SME V would not exist, with its Cast Arm Tube/Headshell and Ball Race/Pivot Bearing, if the RB300 was not produced and supplied the basis for a design. SME were thoroughly wed to their earlier designs and stood by them for almost 21 years following the release of the SME V, I don't see how they could have come up with the Cast Arm Tube as a concept, all their previous design intent  was for a Tube used as a wand. 

Origin Live and Audiomods, are other Brands that will not have materialised if not for the them being Brands that had carried out modification work on the RB300. At the least their popularity is mainly due to the RB300. 

This modification work, evolved into the Two Brands being competitors with their own Tonearm Ranges, and as the RB300 is not too forward from the shadows the Tonearms in the Limelight are derivatives of the RB300.

A selection of the Origin Live range, AudioMods and SME V / IV are the competitors in the market place with the direct lineage to the RB300.

I own a AudioMods Series Five and SME IV , both are quite similar in their presentation and the way they influence the sound. I no longer use these, I have opted for a design that has been much more attractive to myself when used.          

 As for the OP, I feel there is a very good learning and satisfying experience to be encountered if they can try a RB300 or a Derivative within their system.

I have compared a TT Set Up the a CD Set Up on quite a few occasions and more recently in a another owned system, I was fortunate to be able to have a first time experience of trying out three sources as a comparison, where the finding were reassuring to myself.

A comparison took place of Technics SP10R > Glanz Arm > Miyajima Cart', a CD Source from Wadia and the EAR Acute and a latest generation Linn Streamer and the outcome was quite a surprise for me.  

As said this is not my first Rodeo when it comes to experiencing a Vinyl LP Source and CD Source as a comparison. I have a history of doing comparisons between a Vinyl LP Source and CD Source going back tothe 90's and these continued through to to the time I have been a user of CD Source within my system.

Since having a CD Source in my system, I have also been able to carry out comparisons of my CD Set Up in comparison to a selection of owned TT's with differing Tonearms and Cartridges as ancillaries.

As this thread is about ideas on selecting a Tonearm I will try and keep the recollections of the experiences focused on the Tonearms that have been used.

In my listening environment, there is a dedicated method in place to mount a TT and a CDT > DAC. Each method for mounting has be carried using methods that have shown there is a noticeable attraction to the use of a Support Material and method chosen for the mounting.

I have compared Three of my owned Tonearms on two different Motor Drive Design TT's.

The Idler Drive TT, as far as I am concerned is mounted into its final plinth material and there is not a need in my mind to make any further changes, the only further changes that can happen by myself, is to use other ancillaries, which on this TT may produce subtle changes to the perceived SQ on offer, whether for the better is an unknown.

The DD TT's are not in yet mounted in the Densified Wood Plinth Material I wish to see them mounted in, the required materials are owned and a job in waiting and sooon to be completed for one of the Brands.

One of the Brands is mounted in a material that is known to have a increased density and is recognised to have a improved Intrinsic Damping and Dissipation Properties, when compared to many materials selected for a Plinth. The material in use at present on the DD TT, is a less attractive material than a Densified Wood, but does have a proportion of the most desired properties .    

My experiences have shown that when swapping the DD  TT from the Plinth material in use and into a standard type plinth material, there is a noticeable difference and the material of choice that is in use at the present, is the most attractive to be used.

The use of the material used to produce a Plinth is quite a important consideration as it can have a remarkable impact on how the overall delivery of the LP replay is being perceived, especially if being assessed in a analytical listening discipline.

I expect my DD TT's to improve for the better when they are mounted in a Densified Wood Plinth, which will in my view make a further division between how they compare to a CD replay using the same recorded tracks.

A Idler Drive TT used with a Audiomods Tonearm and Hana SL Cartridge and AT-150 MLX Cart' is a fair match to my CD Source, once the SPL adjustments are worked out, the differences detected are not too far apart, and usually the most noticeable differences from recollection have been detected from the bass note. Also what has been of interest is that the MM that has not been used by myself regularly for many years, has shown I still have a attraction for it in use, and I can see myself returning to the use of MM's when the ears are a little less young. 

The same Idler Drive TT used with a Audio Technica 1100 Tonearm and AT 150 MLX Cartridge are also has been perceived from recollections, as a fair match to my CD Source. Again, once the SPL adjustments are worked out, the differences detected are not too far apart, and remain as the previous, where the most noticeable differences from recollection have been detected from the Bass note. 

The DD TT used in a not so commonly seen selected Plinth Material, and used with ancillaries such as a, Bespoke Produced Tonearm with a Bespoke Built MC Cart' has shown a remarkable improvement over the CD replays, there is very  detectable differences for the better, when making recollections of the perceptions that were happening. The CD is undoubtedly perceived as an inferior medium being used, when replayed on my CD Source and compared to the Vinyl Source chosen.

This experience is also seconded by a EE friend who has carried out very high quality projects all areas within HiFi and are producers of DAC's and Phonostages.

This friend now uses the same DD TT and Tonearm as my own, mounted in a different plinth material and supported on a Wall Shelf . They are very much of the view the TT has seriously improved on their old TT and has shown a jump in SQ over their digital creations for CD replays. This friend has now most recently produced a Densified Wood Plinth, and is making reports since its introduction, that it has been a major breakthrough in an improvement, the impact of it has also encouraged them to produce a Sub Plinth Structure using the same materials.

The questions not answered is that, when it comes to identifying what part of the Vinyl LP Source and ancillaries are the main item responsible for the noticeable differences in the comparisons.

The SPL and Bass Note differences can be attributed to the recording ?

The fact that the perception using one Drive System with differing Tonearms and  Cart's,  but ending up with very acceptable similarities is looking to be more down to the ancillaries used with the LP and CD. 

The additional experience where a Different Drive TT > Tonearm > Cart', produced the perception between two individuals in two different environments and mounting methods, that a very noticeable improvement was on offer from the Vinyl Source. In my view, suggests the very noticeable differences are due to the ancillaries used for the LP replay and have the capability of showing the CD Source in use is able to be perceived as a lesser recording medium or lesser quality source during the comparison.

During a allocation of time for a Comparison, I always after the A/B comparisons allow a source to play on for a extended period. It does not take long to relax into the replay and thoroughly enjoy it from any of the sources, the desire to change to the alternative replay option is not present or hankered for.

This is also the peasant surprise I got recently from the Linn Streamer used for a comparison session, I requested the Linn was allowed to replay a few tracks for their entirety, and within one track, I was settled and enjoying the replay to the point I made it known I could comfortably accept the idea of having the method set up in my system. 

With the enjoyment factor present during the use of both the Vinyl LP Source and CD Source when used in my system, and the outcome being both are being equal in my evaluations, I see no need for myself to judge one as better than the other.

If I was needing to make a subjective evaluation based on my experiences, at present within my system, there is a method for using the Vinyl LP as a source that stands out as improved over the CD Source that is in use.                

The Origin Live 'Illustrious' is a Tonearm I was demonstrated recently with a Sumiko Pearwood on a Garrad 401 in a light weight Plinth design.

I know the Garrard sound well, when it is mounted onto a Massey Plinth.

The marriage of all devices that have produced the assembly was for me extremely impressive, and I would like to think it had surpassed my old set up, as I do not recollect such a satisfying extraction from a recording that was enjoyed to this level, especially when additional ancillaries were utilized.  

The owner of the 401 assembly recently sold their SME 20/12 and SME V Tonearm and was keen to receive a assessment from the local group of the new TT Set Up.

The Link is one I showed you previously, there is quite a bit of reading in this thread to discuss Tonearms and the choices that some have made for themselves.

I have referenced the Origin Live Brand a few times within this thread, and one user referred to, did not select it as their choice for a Tonearm, following it being used in demonstrations alongside other Models used as comparisons.

It just goes to show how a unique preference that a user is sensitive to, or the mounting method selected and preparation of the mounting methods might prove to be critical in influencing a decision being made for a purchase.

It does seem that the ears do the final talking when it comes to making such a decision.

A lengthier description of the set up used on the demonstration of the 401 can be found in the link. 

I am a promoter of getting out and experiencing equipment, the lessons that can be learned from the shortest of excursions, can be instrumental in changing thoughts and philosophies on certain strongly held beliefs.   

 

 

Many years past I went through the motions of purchasing a new Tonearm.

As for all the experiences I encountered in demonstration rooms the TT's in use were always belt driven.

At some events I attended there were a broader range of TT's in use using the Tonearms had shortlisted.

Off which a SME IV and V were both candidates.

I was fortunate on one occasion at an event to be able to receive a demonstration of the SME V and IV used on two of the same decks.

I can't recollect if the Cart's were matching, and I am not even sure if I would have considered this as important at this stage on my interest in HiFi, too many years have passed now to even think about the smaller details.

The decision I made was because of the impressions made on this system and the choice I made was to purchase the SME IV Tonearm.

I still own this Tonearm today and a Tonearm I purchased at a later period being the Audiomods Series Five Micrometre.

These two Tonearms have been compared in my system on a PTP Solid Nine and each are very similar and each does not excel in front of the other in perceived performance or in how a music replay is able to be engaged with and enjoyed.

The SME IV has been loaned on a few occasions and the most recent loan was to a friend who was comparing it to other Tonearms, as they were looking to make a Tonearm purchase.

The SME IV on this occasion did not win their favour as a purchase item, even though they said it was not too far behind a few of the other Brands in the line up being demonstrated.

I no longer use the IV or the Series Five micrometre, I have a Tonearm in use that has surpassed both of these as a performer and comfortably wins my favour for how the music is engaged with during a replay.  

  Audio Seri        

A friend and myself have been comparing Two Identical Brand Cart's being the Ortofon Kontrapunk B, each of these were believed to have less than 300 Hours of use.

A Third Cart' was also used, which is a rebuilt K'b.

Two Tonearms with detachable Headshells were set up on a Plinth that has a well thought out servicing and mounting for a GL 75 (Saucepan Chassis Modification ) 

The Tonearms in use was a carefully serviced SME 3009 and the Tonearm Model I use today.

The 3009 was not able to produce a sound from the MC that was attractive, both K'bs were used to verify if the condition was repeatable.

When the Pivot Bearing Design Tonearm was used the whole presentation immediately corrected and was a very attractive presentation.

The 3009 owner commenced the process of considering changing their Tonearm and in the end ordered a Tonearm the same as my model.

Today the same person is using a 12" Tonearm as their preferred Model with a different Cart' to the K'b.

I don't know if a Knife Edge Bearing can be detected in use, but the SME 3009 does not work with for the betterment of the K'b Cart' when set up on a Bespoke Built GL 75 TT on a dedicated mounting rack and sub plinth structure.

A K'b Cart', might not function at its best, if other SME Models and other Brands Models with similar designs to the 3009 are used with it, but that is conjecture and not useful the best evaluation and assessment of the impressions made, is produced when the ears are the tool and have encountered the items in use.   

The K'b is not the ideal compliance for the SME 3009, the comparison was to allow for my friend to hear the K'b that they had purchased in an alternate Tonearm, and to gauge if there was anything tobe concerned about the purchased Cart', hence I bought my K'b.

I could have brought the SME IV and Audiomods Series V,  but the get together was mainly to show the K'b in a different arm.

If the intention was to gauge the best arm, I would have brought the other Tonearms along, and made a longer period available for the investigations. 

As said, I don't know if a Knife Edge Bearing can be detected in use, but the SME 3009 does not work with for the betterment of the K'b Cart' in the system and environment the demonstration took place. 

I am based in the UK, and not aware of a forum member known as Alexy.

The Tonearm I am referring to is at present a prototype, that has had a quantity of critical parts requiring outsourced machining, as it has been cost effective to do so, instead of having one part only produced.

The designer and builder/assembler also has the skills to machine a selection of the parts, but those parts that have to be 'minute dimension accurate' are best left to the services that work with the producing the tightest of tolerances daily and know the best practices. 

The Geometry and Mechanical Interfaces are complete for the Tonearm.

It won't be long before the mechanical interfaces to be considered for the TT assembly of parts are to be addressed, and the Cart' alignment is given a extra TLC.

Then when all is ready and functioning as designed for, I will request that a second Tonearm is assembled with PC Triple C Internal Wire, as my most recent experience has shown that there is a special attribute for this wire when used as the signal path within a Tonearm. 

I am hankering for, and really looking forward to the time when a Company produces a Cart' with this wire used for the coil and Lead Out Pins, it might just prove to be a New Break through.   

@holmz Your curiosity that you are expressing is an exceptional trait and if nurtured in a way that steers you toward communication with and the possibility of meeting with supportive types of individuals, who are like minded and are happy to be confronted with your expression of intertest, I foresee a very good run of experiences to be encountered.

A lot will be learnt and ideas that are on board and thought of as being an important consideration and very relevant, can quickly be undone, the ears when receiving information that is attractive are great at putting a smile on ones face and cementing a person in a need to change direction. 

From my experiences the worse that can happen to a individual who is taut about there ideas, is for them to be insular and not sharing in a broader range of experiences. The types that only have their viewpoints as the relevant methods and are locked in a obsession are to be avoided.

Lots of projects come from a mancave and are created by a type of person who very rarely is able to enjoy the fruits of there work or are able to see the beauty of the world outside.

The building of a HiFi System or the Upgrading of an in use System does take an amount of effort along with querying and foot work, not one person knows it all and those who do have an inkling of an idea, have quite a few hours behind them acquiring their level of understanding. 

It is important for your wellbeing that you are not being forced to feel down trodden by these regular claims being made that your levels of understanding inadequate and your search is a wasteful.

Please note: there is only one unique measuring device available that can show when a piece of equipment is capable of making a individual feel they are experiencing a performance that is quite attractive and satisfying and worthy of being considered for further usage, and that unique measure is yourself and how you respond to the experience. If you are encountering experiences that enlighten you and make you smile, there is not another who can deny you this.

My HiFi journey has brought myself to date where my preferred Speakers are ESL's. These are the ones I find are best suited to the overall genre of music I have collected. I have tried to discover other Speakers to make myself feel better about a replay and have not yet discovered one. It looks like I am Wed to the ESL. 

But there is an anomaly where the ESL does not get me to where I want to be with a genre of music, even though I use the ESL there is a missing moment and I have to occasionally recreate what is missing.

To elaborate, I was introduced to Blues Music in my early teens first white man copy cat and then old school Chicago Type Blues, as I grew into a Older Teen I was able to travel and see live acts, of which a Blues orientated group would be y preferred over a rock or punk type band.

My memories of live Blues played through a PA Speaker is indelible and there is not a ESL able to raise an imagination to simulate the live experiences.

I have a 25ish year old set of Tannoy Cabinet Stand Mount Speakers that are kept for this reason, they occasionally get mounted on a few stools and are used in the main system.

The use of the Tannoy Speakers and the replay of Blues Music is just such an enjoyable encounter, the colouration from the cabinets and poor mounting are just so right for the imagining a Live Venue standing in close proximity to a PA Speaker Set Up.

Strangely the set up is as HiFi as any other set up, the equipment used upstream from the Speakers are unquestionably designed to perform to very the high standards, and I am sure if I was to dig out info on the Speakers, there will have been a time in their existence that they were rated to a high standard, Tannoy is capable of receiving these accolades.

The last time the speaker was in use was in late 2021 and they remained in place for use for more than six months, it was only a social event that was the cause of the other speakers to be hooked up.

When it comes to creating a System it is very important for a person to find the place where the equipment is use is proving to be the most satisfying and pleasurable to be attached to, this can only really be assessed if the equipment is able to create a presentation that is thoroughly enjoyed.

There is no guarantee finding this place will kerb a curiosity, but it will guarantee that a regularly witnessed obsessional desire to endlessly off load equipment and bring in alternatives is able to be avoided.

The knowing a system will produce a place, where one is contented in their knowing it will create a happy place during a replay, is a protection against the usual reaching out to take the red hot tip of a poker and be left feeling  burned again.

 

  

@holmz The searching out a Base Plate for the new Tonearm, landed you in the Company of a individual working on their Hot Rod / Custom Vehicle.

I'm sure the observations and possibly the banter were a nice distraction from the HiFi Interest. If you ever need a High Quality Aesthetic Paint Coating applied to a item that is owned, I am sure the Hot Rod owner can direct you.

I had a very good experience with a Custom Paint Shop when I was to have a TT Chassis recoated, I got the full treatment of being shown all the processes and was shown numerous samples.

I was very impressed with a work being done whilst I was there and settled for this as a 5 Coating Finish with Lacquer Application as well.