Hi. I have a question about the Doors SACDs from Analogue Productions/Acoustic Sounds. They are listed as hybrid SACDs, with a CD stereo layer and an SACD 5.1 surround layer. Would the SACD layer play in stereo if I only have a stereo system? I asked one of their salesman yesterday, and he didn't know!
Yes, virtually all SACD players also play standard CDs because most SACDs are hybrid discs that contain a separate, high-resolution SACD layer (edit: that's DSD format, usually 2 channel stereo, in your case you say it is 5.1 surround content) and a standard Red Book CD layer, (edit, that's PCM Pulse Code Modulation format) allowing the player to read both formats. While a dedicated SACD layer can only be read by an SACD player, the inclusion of a CD layer ensures backwards compatibility with regular CD players and also makes the disc playable on any SACD player.
Note
It is also possible it has the ability to play the DSD layer (SACD) in either SACD/DSD 5.1 or SACD/DSD 2 channel Stereo, as well as play the separate PCM Layer which is REDBOOK CD 2 channel.
Usually, there is an icon 'SACD' that lights up on the players front panel when the player recognizes and plays the SACD layer.
I asked Microsoft Copilot: What layers do Analogue Productions Hybrid Multichannel SACDs have? It answered:
Analogue Productions Hybrid Multichannel SACDs typically contain three distinct layers, each serving a different playback purpose:
Layer Type
Description
CD Layer
Standard Red Book audio playable on any regular CD player.
SACD Stereo Layer
High-resolution stereo mix in DSD format, playable on SACD-compatible players.
SACD Multichannel Layer
High-resolution 5.1 surround mix in DSD format, also for SACD players.
🧠 Technical Notes
The CD layer uses the original stereo mix and is mastered for conventional playback.
The SACD stereo layer offers enhanced fidelity using Direct Stream Digital (DSD), often remastered from analog tapes.
The multichannel layer is typically derived from original multi-track analog masters (e.g., 15 ips tapes), mixed and mastered in high-resolution PCM (96kHz/24-bit), then upsampled to DSD for SACD authoring.
These discs are hybrid, meaning they’re backward-compatible with CD players but unlock their full potential on SACD-capable systems.
Here is a different question on SACD: I have loved the format from the first time I heard it, many years ago. I own two Sony SACD players that were $3000 retail, as I recall, when I acquired them--also many years ago. They are the XA777ES and the XA9000ES. The 777 has been a fantastic workhorse, with thousands of hours on it. The 9000 has been an infrequently used player is a second system. But neither will now play the SACD layer on hybrid CD's. I have read very little on this amazing anomaly of the SACD format. Does anyone have any insight on this issue? TC1
I asked Microsoft Copilot again and this is what it said:
Hybrid SACDs contain two layers:
CD layer: Read using a red laser at 780 nm (same as standard CD players).
SACD layer: Read using an infrared laser at 650 nm (similar to DVD technology).
🔬 Laser Configurations
Dual-laser systems: Some high-end SACD players (like Sony’s SCD-1 or SCD-777ES) have physically separate laser assemblies for CD and SACD layers. This allows for optimized reading of each format.
Single-laser with dual wavelength: Many modern or budget SACD players use a single optical pickup that can switch between wavelengths to read both layers. This is more cost-effective but can be less precise or more prone to wear over time.
⚠️ Common Issues
SACD layer failures are often due to laser degradation or misalignment. Players may still read CDs fine but struggle with SACDs, especially hybrid discs.
Some users have had success recalibrating the laser or adjusting internal pots, but this is risky and not recommended unless you’re experienced with electronics3.
If you’re evaluating a player or troubleshooting one, knowing whether it uses separate lasers can help diagnose issues or justify a repair. Want help identifying the laser setup in a specific model?
Tom again: Finding laser assemblies for older (and sometimes newer) vintage CD and SACD players is a major flaw with these players. It shouldn't be too hard to find someone who works on Sonys and find out if your SACD laser can be replaced or recalibrated.
I'll respond to 2 comments here. I have all the Doors SACD's , never realized till I looked they are multi channel because I like music in 2 channel stereo. The Denon DCD-A110 SACD player I bought 2 years ago is only 2 channel because it depicts realism. Like a concert experience. I have a 9.2 dolby atmos surround system for movies , sports , etc. So the Doors SACD's have actually 3 layers. Top is redbook , first imbedded layer is 2 ch SACD , second imbedded layer is multi channel SACD. The original SACD's which are mostly from 1999=2003 were one layer only and will not play on a conventional cd player. To me they had the best sound. You can find them used and they are quite expensive.
I still have a Denon 5900 player that plays the old single layer SACD's fine but will not play the imbedded SACD layer on the hybrid's. Had a new laser installed and same problem. I went thru 5 Sony DVP-S9000ES players and never found any that will play the hybrid SACD layer either. These players were all mfg before the hybrid SACD's came out and since the player mfg could hardly anticipate their arrival , my opinion is the old units will not play the hybrid's because they were not designed for them. If you like the 2 channel sound , I'd recommend grabbing a used Denon DCD-A110 SACD player , saw a couple for around $2,300. They weigh 35 pounds and are built like a tank.
the lasers weaken with use, not age, finding the SACD layer is the 1st to go, so if buying a used player, try to find one sold by the prior owner who knows how much use it got. Mine came out of the seller’s second system, very little use he said, I chose to trust him, it arrived looking new inside and out, has been working perfectly for years.
I may be fooling myself, but I keep this in my ebay watch list, thinking I could be successful replacing an entire assembly, not the individual laser.
I bought and replaced a laser on a Marantz, it’s tricky, I’m handy, and I was able to melt the static protection blob, install it, get the CD layer found, but never got it’s position refined with height adjustment screws to find the SACD layer.
Elliott my SA 10 marantz sacd player laser gave up last year after 3 yrs. I got lucky Shari Agon member help me to find the original laser, and TVAD recommended a very good tech Stereo lab here in Chicago. I agree it’s the time of used not the age.
It should say what is required to play the disc on the back cover of the jewel case, either something like "This product is a Hybrid SACD designed to play in both CD and SACD players, as well as SACD compatible DVD players." (from the back of one of my AP SACDs) or "This disc is designed for use in Super Audio CD players only". Another clue is to look for the Compact Disc logo. There should be information on the back of the case in some form describing whether it can play on a CD player or not.
I use a gameDR zero clearance technology 10 - brush cyclone cleaner to occasionally clean the lens on my player. It's works on Blue Ray and HD DVD players.
I honestly wouldn't waste my money on SACDs unless you have a top quality player or a good transport and DAC. A regular CD in a good player or transport/DAC will sound better than a SACD in an Oppo or entry level player that has SACD capability. There may be some benefit if they have been remastered and improved.
I could not disagree more, if the SACD was originally recorded in multi-channel high resolution and not badly re-mastered. Most classical SACDs have superb sound.
By the way, hybrid SACDs have two not three recorded layers, one for the CD layer and one with much higher information density for everything else. There is enough room for both 2-channel and 5.0 or 5.1 channel DSD versions.
I could almost immediately tell there was something wrong with DSD playback through my then-new Reavon player's internal DACs. It turned out it was down-sampling DSD to CD-quality PCM. It is fine when used as a transport with external DACs which decode DSD natively.
Note that by DAC I mean a chipset, not a box containing DACs!
I could not disagree more, if the SACD was originally recorded in multi-channel high resolution and not badly re-mastered. Most classical SACDs have superb sound.
I’m not sure what you're disagreeing with but if you like surround sound, cool. We like what we like. I think it sounds very unnatural and prefer stereo if there is a surround version.
In my Oppo, it’s in the set up menu. You choose your layer priority. I had to switch it to stereo priority from multi-channel.. Also, had to switch it to DSD. It was converting to PCM.
A regular CD in a good player or transport/DAC will sound better than a SACD in an Oppo or entry level player
Sony and Philips 25 years ago introduced the SACD format, expecting it to replace CDs which they also co-invented.
DSD is much simpler to play back than PCM, and has much higher resolution than Redbook PCM.
I do not know why SACD was so poorly received in most markets, but my guess is poor marketing. It must be hard to improve on the "perfect sound forever" pitch which almost wiped out LPs.
If you find multi-channel unrealistic, my guess is you do not play much classical music. In a concert hall, much of the sound we hear is reflected and it is the subtle hall sounds that add an extra tad of realism, if the recording engineer so chooses!
@richardbrand The source material matters, but if the equipment isn't up to the task of extracting the information from the media, the sound quality isn't going to be as good as it could be with a high quality external (or internal) DAC converting the digital to analog.
I have many SACDs and if I play the SACD in my Oppo player and the sound from the internal DAC in the Oppo is clearly worse than if I play the red book version from the same SACD disc in the CD player in my Rockna server through my Rockna DAC.
Just as there's a very noticeable difference if I play the same SACD using the Oppo internal DAC or send the DSD stream to the Rockna DAC.
It's like saying that if you play a MOFI or UHQR or other high fidelity vinyl record on a $300 turntable with a built in phono stage, that it's going to sound better than a "standard" pressing of the same record on a $5000 turntable with a $5000 cartridge and a high quality phono stage.
It's very easy to demonstrate and the type of music doesn't matter.
I didn’t realize my $2,000 Oppo 105D was entry level.
Very much so. The 105D retailed for $1200 and its main purpose was to play blu-ray discs. Jack of all trades, master of none. Not sure why someone would pay $2,000 for one, unless it was FOMO when they were being discontinued.
CD and SACD playback is lackluster using the internal DAC. And no, you don't have to add a zero to get significantly better sound quality, you just need to connect it to a better DAC and use it as a transport.
if I play the SACD in my Oppo player and the sound from the internal DAC in the Oppo is clearly worse than if I play the red book version from the same SACD disc in the CD player in my Rockna server through my Rockna DAC
I don't know what Oppo you have but I guess you spent 10 times as much on your Rockna DAC alone. You may not have compatible cable connections, but I would be very interested in how 2-channel DSD played from your Oppo (acting as a transport) sounds through your Rockna DAC?
From my reading, the Rockna DAC does not appear to process DSD natively. Instead it converts to PCM which negates the inherent linearity advantage of DSD.
My Reavon, which is basically a repackaging of the Oppo system-on-a-chip, has TI Burr-Brown DACs which also do not process DSD natively. It is hard to tell from the blurb because you have to read the DAC spec sheets carefully, looking for what they don't say!
But when listening, I could tell almost immediately there was something wrong, which was confirmed when I wrote to Reavon. It is fine when used as a transport feeding native-DSD capable DACs.
@richardbrandI send the DSD 64 data to the Rockna DAC through a HDMI to i2s converter. They are readily available and inexpensive.
I'm not saying that the Oppo's internal DAC is "bad", but when you hear the difference with the same DSD file from the SACD being played through the Oppo compared to the Rockna, you can't unhear it. The Rockna is much more detailed and dynamic, leaving the Oppo a little "flat" sounding.
On the other hand, a well mastered CD or the Redbook layer from a SACD will sound very close to a SACD and much better than a SACD played through the Oppo.
You don't have to have a Rockna to be able to discern the difference. Any decent DAC that can accept i2s input and DSD 64 should provide better sound quality than the Oppo.
I'm not trying to pick on Oppo, my point is that any universal player like that is built to a price point and by definition is built to do multiple things, so you're not going to get the full enjoyment your digital files can bring. I thought the Oppo sounded good until I visited a friend who has a Jay's Audio CD transport and DAC (Redbook only) and realized that I was wrong about the possibilities that CDs present. That led to my experiment of using the Oppo as a transport and taking advantage of the Rockna DAC.
I can buy used CDs for 3 or 4 bucks at the local record store instead of paying 10 times that for SACDs that don't really sound much (if any) better when played back that way.
Ok, with that extra information I can see where you are coming from! To summarise, I think you are saying that a CD can sound nearly as good as an SACD when played in two-channels through a state-of-the art DAC box.
In my experience most classical CDs have excellent sound quality, probably because digital mixing is kept to a minimum. I stopped buying vinyl as soon as CDs came out, but I am dipping my toes into the vinyl waters to try to see what all the fuss is about.
There is virtually no difference in price for me between new classical CDs and new classical SACDs but new vinyl is three times as expensive - I mainly buy through Presto. My local bookstore keeps second-hand classical records at about four bucks each, and possibly because I use micro-line stylii, most sound as good as new. The bookstore's main storage is a huge book barn, which has been expanded into a winery and wedding venue so I think records are just nostalgia for them.
Your Oppo seems to work fine as a transport outputting HDMI, which is the same as my Reavon experience. Personally I cannot see any point converting multi-channel HDMI to I2S (2-channel only) or feeding DSD into any DAC with a ladder architecture. DSD was invented to remove the need to balance the individual rungs of the ladder!
The Oppo 205 manual states the quality of the digital output depends on the output connection. I did not know until I looked. Hope this helps with the discussions with Oppo players.
Due to bandwidth limitations , high resolution audio formats such as Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS - HD High Resolution and DTS - HD Master Audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output . A reduced resolution version of the same audio track will be output instead. To listen to high resolution audio formats in their best quality , please use the HDMI connection if you have a receiver that handles HDMI audio (see page 12 ) or use the multi -channel analog outputs if you do not (see page 15 ).
Due to copyright restrictions , SACD audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output . To listen to SACDs , please use the HDMI or analog audio connections .
Due to copyright restrictions and bandwidth limitations , full resolution audio from DVD -Audio discs cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output . To listen to DVDAudio in full resolution , please use the HDMI or analog audio connections .
I was able to overcome those copyright limitations using a DBOB (Geerfab distal breakout box) with my oppo bdp-93. It extracts the DSD signal from HDMI and sends it to the dac. Works great and cheaper alternative to a super expensive SACD player and does it without breaking any laws.
@richardbrand In regards to your comments about the DSD conversion, have you heard a Rockna? There's what you read on the internet, and then there's actual listening experience.
To be clear, what I've said from the start is that a CD will sound better through a good DAC than a SACD through a not so great DAC. You like what you like, keep doing what you're doing.
I come here to learn new things with an open mind and to help when I can, based on my actual experience, not to argue with people about their audio theories.
To be fair, I had not even heard of Rockna before your post, let alone heard a Rockna setup!
what I've said from the start is that a CD will sound better through a good DAC than a SACD through a not so great DAC
Not sure how this helps anyone! You hypothetically change two factors simultaneously, with a conclusion that suggests CDs might be better than SACDs even though all hybrid SACDs include a CD layer. Not helpful.
the quality of the digital output depends on the output connection
Thanks for pointing out the limitations of most digital connections! Why North Americans seem so reluctant to embrace the purpose-designed High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) is completely beyond me.
It seems to go hand-in-hand with a refusal to consider multi-channel sound, whether through SACD (5.0 or 5.1 channels), Pure Audio Blu-ray or newer formats like Dolby Atmos (up to 32 virtual channels). All these are supported by HDMI which currently operates up to 96-Gbps.
Instead we get the faintly ridiculous notion of using HDMI cables to transmit the 1986 I2S protocol designed by Philips. I2S was designed so two chips on the same board could communicate 2-channel 16-bit PCM data. Let’s get real
@richardbrandThe OP asked about the ability of a CD player to render SACD information. It won't, but if it's a hybrid disc it will play in any CD player. They don't have an SACD player, so buying SACDs would be wasteful.
I pointed out a couple of other things that may prevent somebody from wasting their money. The first is that the recording and mastering of the music and the quality of the playback equipment is more important than the media that it's on.
The second is that if someone already has a good CD player, most SACDs include a Redbook layer that is very likely to sound better on a decent CD player or transport and DAC than the SACD layer will on a universal player that supports SACD.
What helpful and useful information have you contributed?
The OP asked about the ability of a CD player to render SACD information. It won’t
What the OP asked was actually
Would the SACD layer play in stereo if I only have a stereo system
He did not mention whether he had SACD or CD players or transports. The correct answer is that almost certainly the hybrid SACD would include a 2-channel DSD version along with a 5.x channel DSD version. Either will play in 2-channel from an SACD player or transport, depending on the mix-down capability of the receiver.
The hybrid SACD also includes a completely separate layer containing a Redbook CD version, which will play back in 2-channels on any CD player or transport.
I note that the word stereo means solid and does not necessarily mean two channel. To quote Oxford Languages dictionary, stereo is "sound that is directed through two or more speakers so that it seems to surround the listener and to come from more than one source".
You repeat without any qualification that the Redbook layer is
very likely to sound better on a decent CD player or transport and DAC than the SACD layer will on a universal player that supports SACD
In my experience that is completely untrue. My evidence is that I could tell that my Reavon universal player had obvious problems with its TI Burr Brown DACs - it was down converting DSD to CD quality and it was so obvious I wrote to Reavon seeking clarification. My previous Marantz universal player sounded wonderful on SACD.
The Reavon also has a better quality 32-bit DAC for 2-channel playback, which was sonically equivalent to a very good Sony CD player. But the Reavon also down converted 2-channel DSD to CD quality when using this DAC!
To everyone else. IMHO. Don’t buy the LP’s are being re re re re released by AP if you already have the AP SACD’s I bought the AP boxed set and love both 2ch and the previously heard 5.1 layer sourced from the Doors of Preception DVD-A (DTS 96/24 if memory serves).
The complexities are largely hidden from the user and are there for backwards compatibility. Firstly, compatibility with CDs, then for those who only want 2-channel playback!
It is a bit like the multiple generations of USB and Ethernet, driven by the desire for more bandwidth.
Of course, the Direct Stream Digital (DSD) format employed by SACD is far simpler than the Pulse Code Modulation (PCM) used in CDs and Pure Audio Blu-Rays.
DSD is a stream of bits which just nudge the sound level up one or down one. All you need for playback is a low-pass filter in the mega-Hertz range.
Mathematically, PCM can be derived exactly from DSD, but not the other way round. The pioneering immersive sound label 2L.no archives its recordings in very high frequency DSD so they can be converted into multiple derived formats.
I acknowledge that DSD is difficult for editing and even more difficult for mixing which explains why very little pop / rock appears on SACDs compared with classical music.
2L.no uses floating point, not integer, master files for mixing.
@richardbrandMy DAC has DSD capability up to 258 cycles but streamer maxes out at 126. Anyway, downloading DSD is easy and I have downloaded about eight titles. I can see the argument for buying an SACD player since there are more options on disc form but they’re expensive and hopefully, aside from streaming, DSD downloads are the future. Acoustic Sounds used to offer DSD downloads but they flaked out. It seems that they believe more consumers will choose to buy their hybrid discs rather than opt for downloads. Native DSD probably has the best selection of DSD downloads but even there, they’re few in number.
You repeat without any qualification that the Redbook layer is
very likely to sound better on a decent CD player or transport and DAC than the SACD layer will on a universal player that supports SACD
In my experience that is completely untrue. My evidence is that I could tell that my Reavon universal player had obvious problems with its TI Burr Brown DACs - it was down converting DSD to CD quality and it was so obvious I wrote to Reavon seeking clarification. My previous Marantz universal player sounded wonderful on SACD.
The fact that you haven't experienced this with your awesome player designed for "The best possible picture and sound technologies for an incredible home cinema experience" doesn't make it untrue.
I have experienced it, and what I'm sharing is actual listening experience, not hypothetical ramblings.
I have heard incredible sounding Redbook CD playback in my system and at least two others (one with Jay's Audio transport/DAC and one with a nice Ayre CD player). That's not to say that the same disc as an SACD wouldn't sound any better, only that many people are not aware of the potential of CDs to provide excellent sound quality.
I am primarily a vinyl guy myself, but it's been great to be able to pick up CDs for 3 or 4 bucks and have them sound fantastic. I also have a relatively small collection of SACDs and some of them are amazing.
I can see the argument for buying an SACD player since there are more options on disc form but they’re expensive
Your DAC already has DSD capability, so all you really need is something that acts as an SACD transport, that is to say, no analogue output is needed. Sony make a universal disk player, the UBP-X700U, which you can probably buy new for under US$200. That’s right, only two zeros.
It only outputs over HDMI - one is dedicated for audio. So if your DAC accepts HDMI natively (not I2S using an HDMI cable) that’s all you really need.
This transport is not built like a tank, but it supports Blu-Ray up to 4K, SACD, DVD and CD. Apart from SACD, it supports other high resolution audio formats including Pure Audio Blu-Ray and Dolby Atmos.
If you are into classical music or jazz, Presto Music | All things musical… on your doorstep has over 6,000 new SACD titles listed. They also have a streaming service which offers downloads at no extra charge.
By the way, DSD on SACD takes samples 64 times more often that CDs, so it is often written DSD64. You DAC does even better at DSD256 while your transport is probably DSD128 capable. But for SACD you only need DSD64.
many people are not aware of the potential of CDs to provide excellent sound quality.
I am primarily a vinyl guy myself
Good to see a vinyl enthusiast embracing CDs. Around the time CDs were released (1982) I found myself in the UK and popped into the Quad factory, to be greeted by the legendary Peter Walker himself. I asked what he thought of the new medium and he said "It is fantastic". He had no axe to grind, as at that time Quad only made amplifiers and speakers targeted towards classical music listeners.
On my way back to Australia, I acquired Quad pre- and power amplifiers, Quad ESL-63 speakers and a Philips CD player, plus a Garrard 301 turntable with SME arm and Shure V15 cartridge that my dad gave me. I stopped buying new vinyl until last year when I found out how much the Garrard sells for secondhand. I naturally transitioned to SACD over 20 years ago when Gramophone magazine provided its reviewers with Marantz universal disk players, so I bought one.
Later I found out that almost all vinyl over the last 20 years has been digitally mastered anyway. If I was not mainly interested in classical, my journey would have been very different.
Later I found out that almost all vinyl over the last 20 years has been digitally mastered anyway.
I think a lot of people don't realize that. I often question my sanity for continuing to buy vinyl when streaming and CDs sound so good and take up so much less space, especially considering that many vinyl records were recorded and/or mastered digitally.
There seems to be a lot of issues with quality control in today's vinyl manufacturing process. Many new records that I buy have issues with surface noise, non-fill, warps, etc.
However, there's something about the ritual of playing vinyl for me that transcends digital playback, so I keep doing it. When the vinyl is done right, it can sound really spectacular.
@richardbrandI appreciate your time and mindfulness to help me with accessing SACD capability. I'm using an Ayre QB9 Twenty DAC and a Bryston BDP 3 transport. The Ayre DAC only operates via USB. I bought the Ayre in 2011 during its first incarnation. Two upgrades later and its still with me. It sounds very good so I have no interest in getting a different DAC unless I come up with a substantial amount of money. I recently purchased my first download trough Presto. A 24 bit 96kHz download from Alpha records entitled 'Deux'. https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8400043--deux Not DSD but a very good sounding recording with exceptional artistry. Anyway, downloads and mono vinyl for me!
Thanks for that extra information. I can't help you on USB! Seems the world is divided between the USA, where seven computer companies originally invented USB, and Europe/Japan where HDMI proliferates.
I had not heard the Alpha recording you linked, but I now have it downloaded on my Android phone. As a Presto Music subscriber, there was no extra charge for the download. I recently bought another Alpha CD which is stupendous, although it breaks the Redbook rules for duration Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition (page 1 of 15) | Presto Music
Last month I went to a live performance which included Ravel's Tzigane played by a 20's something violinist. Awesome.
If you like Ravel, could I suggest any of John Wilson's recordings with the Sinfonia of London, on Chandos. Chandos normally records in multi-channel high-resolution PCM and delivers as hybrid SACD or downloads. Actually all Chandos / John Wilson recordings are top notch
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