Analogue Productions SACDs

@big_greg 

I disagree with the following statement:

A regular CD in a good player or transport/DAC will sound better than a SACD in an Oppo or entry level player

Sony and Philips 25 years ago introduced the SACD format, expecting it to replace CDs which they also co-invented.

DSD is much simpler to play back than PCM, and has much higher resolution than Redbook PCM.  

I do not know why SACD was so poorly received in most markets, but my guess is poor marketing.  It must be hard to improve on the "perfect sound forever" pitch which almost wiped out LPs.

If you find multi-channel unrealistic, my guess is you do not play much classical music.  In a concert hall, much of the sound we hear is reflected and it is the subtle hall sounds that add an extra tad of realism, if the recording engineer so chooses!

@big_greg 

To be fair, I had not even heard of Rockna before your post, let alone heard a Rockna setup!

what I've said from the start is that a CD will sound better through a good DAC than a SACD through a not so great DAC

Not sure how this helps anyone!  You hypothetically change two factors simultaneously, with a conclusion that suggests CDs might be better than SACDs even though all hybrid SACDs include a CD layer.  Not helpful.

@big_greg 

I could not disagree more, if the SACD was originally recorded in multi-channel high resolution and not badly re-mastered.  Most classical SACDs have superb sound.

By the way, hybrid SACDs have two not three recorded layers, one for the CD layer and one with much higher information density for everything else.  There is enough room for both 2-channel and 5.0 or 5.1 channel DSD versions.

I could almost immediately tell there was something wrong with DSD playback through my then-new Reavon player's internal DACs.  It turned out it was down-sampling DSD to CD-quality PCM.  It is fine when used as a transport with external DACs which decode DSD natively.

Note that by DAC I mean a chipset, not a box containing DACs!

@big_greg 

if I play the SACD in my Oppo player and the sound from the internal DAC in the Oppo is clearly worse than if I play the red book version from the same SACD disc in the CD player in my Rockna server through my Rockna DAC

I don't know what Oppo you have but I guess you spent 10 times as much on your Rockna DAC alone.  You may not have compatible cable connections, but I would be very interested in how 2-channel DSD played from your Oppo (acting as a transport) sounds through your Rockna DAC?

From my reading, the Rockna DAC does not appear to process DSD natively.  Instead it converts to PCM which negates the inherent linearity advantage of DSD.

My Reavon, which is basically a repackaging of the Oppo system-on-a-chip, has TI Burr-Brown DACs which also do not process DSD natively.  It is hard to tell from the blurb because you have to read the DAC spec sheets carefully, looking for what they don't say!

But when listening, I could tell almost immediately there was something wrong, which was confirmed when I wrote to Reavon.  It is fine when used as a transport feeding native-DSD capable DACs.

@big_greg 

Ok, with that extra information I can see where you are coming from!  To summarise, I think you are saying that a CD can sound nearly as good as an SACD when played in two-channels through a state-of-the art DAC box.

In my experience most classical CDs have excellent sound quality, probably because digital mixing is kept to a minimum.  I stopped buying vinyl as soon as CDs came out, but I am dipping my toes into the vinyl waters to try to see what all the fuss is about. 

There is virtually no difference in price for me between new classical CDs and new classical SACDs but new vinyl is three times as expensive - I mainly buy through Presto.  My local bookstore keeps second-hand classical records at about four bucks each, and possibly because I use micro-line stylii, most sound as good as new.  The bookstore's main storage is a huge book barn, which has been expanded into a winery and wedding venue so I think records are just nostalgia for them.

Your Oppo seems to work fine as a transport outputting HDMI, which is the same as my Reavon experience.  Personally I cannot see any point converting multi-channel HDMI to I2S (2-channel only) or feeding DSD into any DAC with a ladder architecture.  DSD was invented to remove the need to balance the individual rungs of the ladder!

@alb59 

the quality of the digital output depends on the output connection

Thanks for pointing out the limitations of most digital connections!  Why North Americans seem so reluctant to embrace the purpose-designed High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) is completely beyond me.

It seems to go hand-in-hand with a refusal to consider multi-channel sound, whether through SACD (5.0 or 5.1 channels), Pure Audio Blu-ray or newer formats like Dolby Atmos (up to 32 virtual channels).  All these are supported by HDMI which currently operates up to 96-Gbps.

Instead we get the faintly ridiculous notion of using HDMI cables to transmit the 1986 I2S protocol designed by Philips.  I2S was designed so two chips on the same board could communicate 2-channel 16-bit PCM data.  Let’s get real

@big_greg 

The OP asked about the ability of a CD player to render SACD information. It won’t

What the OP asked was actually

Would the SACD layer play in stereo if I only have a stereo system

He did not mention whether he had SACD or CD players or transports. The correct answer is that almost certainly the hybrid SACD would include a 2-channel DSD version along with a 5.x channel DSD version.  Either will play in 2-channel from an SACD player or transport, depending on the mix-down capability of the receiver.

The hybrid SACD also includes a completely separate layer containing a Redbook CD version, which will play back in 2-channels on any CD player or transport.

I note that the word stereo means solid and does not necessarily mean two channel.  To quote Oxford Languages dictionary, stereo is "sound that is directed through two or more speakers so that it seems to surround the listener and to come from more than one source".

You repeat without any qualification that the Redbook layer is

very likely to sound better on a decent CD player or transport and DAC than the SACD layer will on a universal player that supports SACD

In my experience that is completely untrue.  My evidence is that I could tell that my Reavon universal player had obvious problems with its TI Burr Brown DACs - it was down converting DSD to CD quality and it was so obvious I wrote to Reavon seeking clarification.  My previous Marantz universal player sounded wonderful on SACD.

The Reavon also has a better quality 32-bit DAC for 2-channel playback, which was sonically equivalent to a very good Sony CD player.  But the Reavon also down converted 2-channel DSD to CD quality when using this DAC!

@goofyfoot 

All these complications with SACD players

The complexities are largely hidden from the user and are there for backwards compatibility.  Firstly, compatibility with CDs, then for those who only want 2-channel playback!

It is a bit like the multiple generations of USB and Ethernet, driven by the desire for more bandwidth.

Of course, the Direct Stream Digital (DSD) format employed by SACD is far simpler than the Pulse Code Modulation (PCM) used in CDs and Pure Audio Blu-Rays.

DSD is a stream of bits which just nudge the sound level up one or down one.  All you need for playback is a low-pass filter in the mega-Hertz range.

Mathematically, PCM can be derived exactly from DSD, but not the other way round.  The pioneering immersive sound label 2L.no archives its recordings in very high frequency DSD so they can be converted into multiple derived formats.

I acknowledge that DSD is difficult for editing and even more difficult for mixing which explains why very little pop / rock appears on SACDs compared with classical music.

2L.no uses floating point, not integer, master files for mixing.

@goofyfoot 

 I can see the argument for buying an SACD player since there are more options on disc form but they’re expensive

Your DAC already has DSD capability, so all you really need is something that acts as an SACD transport, that is to say, no analogue output is needed.  Sony make a universal disk player, the UBP-X700U, which you can probably buy new for under US$200.  That’s right, only two zeros.

It only outputs over HDMI - one is dedicated for audio.  So if your DAC accepts HDMI natively (not I2S using an HDMI cable) that’s all you really need.

This transport is not built like a tank, but it supports Blu-Ray up to 4K, SACD, DVD and CD.  Apart from SACD, it supports other high resolution audio formats including Pure Audio Blu-Ray and Dolby Atmos.

If you are into classical music or jazz, Presto Music | All things musical… on your doorstep has over 6,000 new SACD titles listed.  They also have a streaming service which offers downloads at no extra charge.

By the way, DSD on SACD takes samples 64 times more often that CDs, so it is often written DSD64.  You DAC does even better at DSD256 while your transport is probably DSD128 capable.  But for SACD you only need DSD64.

@big_greg 

many people are not aware of the potential of CDs to provide excellent sound quality. 

I am primarily a vinyl guy myself

Good to see a vinyl enthusiast embracing CDs.  Around the time CDs were released (1982) I found myself in the UK and popped into the Quad factory, to be greeted by the legendary Peter Walker himself. I asked what he thought of the new medium and he said "It is fantastic".  He had no axe to grind, as at that time Quad only made amplifiers and speakers targeted towards classical music listeners.

On my way back to Australia, I acquired Quad pre- and power amplifiers, Quad ESL-63 speakers and a Philips CD player, plus a Garrard 301 turntable with SME arm and Shure V15 cartridge that my dad gave me.  I stopped buying new vinyl until last year when I found out how much the Garrard sells for secondhand.  I naturally transitioned to SACD over 20 years ago when Gramophone magazine provided its reviewers with Marantz universal disk players, so I bought one.

Later I found out that almost all vinyl over the last 20 years has been digitally mastered anyway.  If I was not mainly interested in classical, my journey would have been very different.

@goofyfoot

Thanks for that extra information.  I can't help you on USB!  Seems the world is divided between the USA, where seven computer companies originally invented USB, and Europe/Japan where HDMI proliferates.

I had not heard the Alpha recording you linked, but I now have it downloaded on my Android phone.  As a Presto Music subscriber, there was no extra charge for the download. I recently bought another Alpha CD which is stupendous, although it breaks the Redbook rules for duration Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition (page 1 of 15) | Presto Music

Last month I went to a live performance which included Ravel's Tzigane played by a 20's something violinist.  Awesome.

If you like Ravel, could I suggest any of John Wilson's recordings with the Sinfonia of London, on Chandos.  Chandos normally records in multi-channel high-resolution PCM and delivers as hybrid SACD or downloads.  Actually all Chandos / John Wilson recordings are top notch