Mikelavigne, thanks for the reply. I didn't have a chance to check things here for a few days, so I just saw your reply today! I just got some NOS tubes for my Berning, following the recommendations of people here. I'll listen to the Berning for a while like this. I HAVE been considering purchasing Joule or Atma-sphere for a while (almost bid on a pair here on Audiogon up for auction a few weeks back but needed a better CD player more), mostly because I have Merlins and Bobby always demos them with Joule electronics. Of course, Merlins would not be a difficult load for the Tenors, my question to Jtinn was more 'hypothetical' than based on what I need for my current system.
By the way, if things work out, I'd be the 99th post on this thread--almost up to 100! |
Twl, yes, it was a, "can I listen the my amp in your awesome system" type of deal, not a real shoot out but I think the ZH-270 was surprising to the listeners.
I did not expect Mike to get new interconnects but the comparison should not have been that critical and maybe it as not, but some are trying to make it seem so, we all know the differences that and IC can make, it was an insertion of an amp for a quick comparison, not a true one on one, like some are making it out to be.
Although, yes, the Berning showed some of its true nature, it did not show all of its true nature, with a handicap of a much different IC, a 6 year old model and in a system tweaked for the Tenor, as well without trying different feedback positions, almost defeated the purpose altogether.
Those of you that know Berning amps, also know that the feedback positions are not subtle, with the Tenor being a 0 feedback, the low feedback on the Berning should have been tried, those of you that have tried different IC's also know that is not a subtle change.
So all this talk about Taurus's and BMW's, are only meant to distract.
One on one, on equal turf, that's all the guys are asking for now.
If there are any Audio Societies out there that are willing, I am sure there will be Berning owners more than happy to make their amps available. |
You will miss out on what your amp can do if you put it on a steel shelf or even inches away from a steel case, component stand steel frame, or component with a big transformer. The ZH-270 chassis is non-magnetic for a reason. Give it a try before spending any $$$! |
I believe that Mike was being genuine in his efforts to get a good shootout. He didn't have to do this and has nothing to gain. His system is better than most of us will ever hear. It is optimized for his Tenors, and you can't expect him to buy all new interconnects and speaker cables just to have a shootout. So I accept his findings for exactly what they are. A one time comparison with his system where the Tenors sounded better. I don't feel any less "good" about my Berning amp as a result of this. In fact, I am happy that it is thought highly enough of to rate a shootout with the top rated amps in the world. Not all comparisons will come out the same.I thank the participants for their efforts and trouble in doing this to report to us. We Berning owners can feel good knowing that with NOS tubes and a well matched system, the Berning amps go to a much higher level over the stock tubes, not a subtle difference. In my mind, this will take the Berning up to a level that is plenty close enough to anybody's amp. So why should I care if someone else likes Tenor's a little better in their system. I know mine sounds great and that is all that matters to me. For the cost-no-object guys, if they feel that the difference is worth all that money, they should go for it. It's their money and their system. We all want to feel happy with our systems and whatever it takes to get there is what we do as audiophiles. I am not a cost-no-object guy and I got top quality sound for a miniscule fraction of what Mike spent for his super system. I am happy with that. I'm sure Mike is happy with his. Let's all be happy and look forward to the next shootout with a Seigfried or the new Monoblocks. Can't wait! |
This is silly, the Berning will compete easily with the Tenors. Sorry Jtinn, I WILL put my money where my mouth is, I have no reservations. I don't care how much $$$$ we are talking about, money does not always equate better sound. Let the people be the judge in this instance, "Lets get ready to rumblllllle!!!!". :)
If the Berning is embarrassed by the Tenors, then so be it. If the opposite happens, then be prepared to face the music. I am ready to face off, lets go. Enough talk, if the Tenors are + $15,000 better then lets hear it and be done. This is totally silly until we face off. Let the audiophiles decide!! :)
This is alot of fun, I don't care what criticism becomes of this.
I also don't care when this happens, lets just be civil about it and arrange something, even if its at a CES or whatever. This is great :) Jtinn, this is great thread whether you like me or not :)
Best Regards,
Chris
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Jtinn.
The interconnect used was not the same, the feedback setting was not tried, the amp was 6 years old.
let's do the blind test in Montreal, Tenors home town.
Talk is cheap, wait... in this case, talk is expensive!!!! |
i think we beat this issue into submission......
More like drove it into submission, with a ford Taurus. |
i am really disappointed that my thread did not get to 100 posts in one week......come on guys.....where's the passion?
i think we beat this issue into submission...... |
There is a point of diminishing returns when we talk about high-end audio. One has to spend quite a bit more money to get that last bit of refinement. The Tenor's are MUCH better than the Berning's, given the proper speaker match. The Lamm's are better as well as are all the Atma-sphere's. If the load is REALLY difficult, the transformer on the Berning will help it outperform OTL's in one area, the point where the impedance drops the most. That is all.
I have heard the Berning's and like them quite a bit. I truly think they are a fine product and a real value. I also like the BAT VK-60's which actually go for a lot less money on the used market. I would easily choose the AS M60's over the Berning's if, again the speaker was not a tough load. Some of the lower priced Joule amps are also right in there.
The trick is to put a fine amp in a mediocre system and see what happens, not to put a good amp in an exceptional system. When Michael was waiting for his Exquisites, he could not wait to listen to his Tenor's. He pulled out an old pair of KEF's and was amazed at the sound that he heard. He could not believe his was enjoying the KEF's the way he was. In a system as "dialed in" as Michael's, I doubt any amp would actually sound "bad". I know this kind of cuts at the Berning's, and that is not my real intention. I just think some of the responses in this thread are not very realistic.
For me, this thread is over. Many of you have not read my posts carefully enough. I have stated the same thing many times in this discussion and a few of you hear what you want to hear. Mike was nice enough to have David over so David could hear his amps in his system. David loved it and had the chance to hear a comparison with the Tenor's. He stated that "As one who was there, I would have to say that the difference in sound between the two amps was not subtle - the Tenors were clearly the more satisfying". It is the way it is.
A Ford Taurus will get you from point A to point B, just as a BMW 740IL will. Which would you rather ride in? |
My Berning with NOS tubes sounded much better that with the stock JAN Phillips/Russian tubes. Glare was gone. Detail much better. Bass much improved. It was like a "new" amp upgrade. I have the MicroZOTL and put in Mullard NOS 6201(12AT7) and Sylvania NOS 6SN7-WGT(1940's). Improvement was NOT subtle. Entire re-tube was under $200. I know nobody thinks the little MicroZOTL at 1 watt per channel can be a heavyweight sonic contender, but that is wrong. With the right high efficiency speaker, it is one of the sweetest sounding amps you can buy. Do not underestimate this little amp. It is truly a "David" in a world of "Goliaths". For those on a budget that want world class sound, this is the best way I can think of to do it. I am not pulling your leg, this is for real. If you've already got a great main system, and you are thinking of putting together a second system for the office or bedroom, or something, you can use the MicroZOTL with a set of high eff. spkrs. and a single source(no preamp needed, has volume control). You will get audio nirvana for peanuts. No, it will not simulate the sound levels of the Pink Floyd concert at Shea Stadium. But, for real world enjoyment it will do nicely. It is truly, as Harvey "Dr. Gizmo" Rosenberg put it," The best $750 amp in the world." And I will add, better than many amps that I've heard up to ten times its price. Definitely worth checking out. Must use NOS tubes to fully realize the quality. |
Once again, I remind you of the Seigfried. It is a better comparison. As I said before, the ZH270 is push pull with feedback, and the Seigfried 811/300B is single ended with no feedback. It has less power, but it is the top of the line Berning. Someone should do a shootout with it against the smaller Tenors, so the power levels would be similar. I think that would be a much closer call. |
NOS, NOS, NOS tubes!
I haven't had the luxury of hearing either amp, but after reading this thread I would strongly consider a Berning. I had been considering the Atma-sphere M-60's, but the thought of the Berning with considerably fewer tubes, very little heat and with phenomenal sound is very intriguing.
One thing I am surprised at in this thread is the few mentions of NOS tubes for the Berning. From my own personal experience, NOS tubes can make a tremendous difference. The Berning apparently had stock tubes and it wasn't embarrassed in this shoot-out. Amazing considering the price difference. But I would love to see you guys re-create the shoot-out with NOS tubes in the Berning. I think I recall reading in one of the earlier posts that the Tenors had stock tubes also, but for the sake of argument, I wonder how things would differ if the Berning had NOS and the Tenors didn't. I know it is not necessarily fair to restrict the Tenors, but lets face it, this comparison wasn't fair to begin with if you look at the price difference. I agree with an earlier poster that it is simply unbelievable that the Berning was even in the ballpark.
It would also be interesting to leave the Berning on overnight in the system and then continue the shoot-out. My tube gear definitely sounds better after being on for a few hours. |
I have heard the tenors and must say they are the ONLY amps I have heard that really take my breath away(for the record I am a lazy tube guy so I use BAT-which I enjoy), they get my goot tapping, they make me smile-they sound like music. Everything else I have heard sounds like hi-fi. Not that it should matter but the tenors are aesthetically pleasing as well(good WAF......well for a tube amp any way) and the Berning is kinda ugly; but as I said that is not a big thing-hell the new audio aero I think is ugly but I bought one any way. |
Oneproof, when i first demoed the Tenors i did it on the Wilson watt/puppy 6s. the WP6 is among the most brutal speakers for an OTL; difficult impedence curve (6 ohm -- 2.3 ohm), and best normally with monster amps. in fact, my long-time reference had been the Levinson #33....i had also demoed the Halcro DM58 and the Atmasphere MA2 MkII.2 on the WP6. all those "big" amps were great on the WP6. but even with the dynamic limitations of the Tenor on the WP6, the Tenors were so much better than any other amp i was stunned.
if i still owned WP6s i would still own the Tenor 75Wi.
your answer is YES!!! the Tenors are THAT good. there are probably some brutal speakers somewhere that the Berning might be better on but i doubt it. the musical connection of the Tenors come thru......even though it is a shame not to optimize the Tenors.....even with a handicap they are something really special.
understand i am not saying that the Tenors are better than every amp on every speaker.....but it will require a great amp (read big $$$$) in a "native" situation for that amp to better the Tenor.
get yourself somewhere that you can hear the Tenors compared to another amp you know....it will literally jump out at you what they do. |
I hope the Tenors and all the rest of these products are at the show in NYC in May, I look forward to hearing first hand.
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Jtinn, I just have one question. Are you claiming that Tenors, Atma-spheres, Joules (I know, that wasn't in your post), Lamms, etc. will outperform the Berning in every system, with EVERY type of speaker, regardless of how difficult it is to drive--planar, electrostatic, plasma, whatever? Pick the highest quality interconnects, sources, preamps, speaker cables, tweaks, whatever you want, (maybe Mikelavigne's system !), pick the 'best' speakers from the different categories, AB the Tenors and the Berning. The Tenors will always sound better?
I have a Berning; I like it, but I have no emotional investment in it. If your answer to my question is 'yes', I'll think seriously about selling my Berning, some other stuff I have laying around I never use, and saving some money to pick up a pair of Atma-spheres, or Joules. If I win the lottery, maybe Tenors or Lamms! |
Jtinn -The real point is if an amp is expensive to produce and it doesn't sound good at its price or below, it is a poor design and it will eventually fail in the market. It may last long enough to be sold to the unwitting deep-pocketed few, that's all. The deep-pocketed discerning music lover will recognize its real value.
As Twl notes above, fewer parts, less tubes and a radically new design can correlate to great sound at less cost, can't it? Better even than the competition and maybe even better than products considerably more. Can't this be true? Does it not ever happen in audio? This is what great design is all about especially when it also offers new levels of convenience, features and dependability.
Since you haven't listened to the zh270 in your reference, how can you be so certain that it isn't better than the run of the mill 4.5K - 5K amp? It doesn't have an output transformer that always gets in the way of the music. Most 5K tube amps have one and they ring, aren't nearly as clear and certainly don't have the bass performance of the Berning. The Berning has the true performance of an OTL. Other than the Atmas-pheres name another that competes? The Wrights are also great but they are specialty amps designed for low powered applications. Have you actually heard the zh270? You haven't made that clear. Since I truly value your opinion, I would be interested in the details.
Why did Harvey Rosenberg and Dick Olsher gush over this amp if it wasn't as good as it is? They didn't qualify it's sound with price. There seems to be a wide-ranging consensus that it has a reference quality midrange. There is greater debate over its performance at the frequency extremes but this seems to vary with the load.
According to one of your competitors in an above post, it gets much better than the Tenors. Well, one thing is for certain, it gets much more expensive. Question - Is the Vandersteen 5, at 11K, a world class speaker or is it just a great speaker at its price? Don't need an answer, I already know that opinions do vary.
As Mike notes above and as you have also noted in other threads, deep pockets allow a greater range of choices. To me the very best designs are the ones that make great sounding products that work in a wide range of applications and compete with the higher priced competition. In addition they are within financial reach of a large group. I believe the Berning is in that category of product. 20K + amplifiers should be easier to design to sound good simply because they have to make less compromises. The fact that some don't means those designers' should find a new line of work because there are many that can and do.
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Allanbhaganinfo: I do have to disagree with your statement of "it's easier to build a phenomenal amp at any cost, than to build a great amp at a steal." I think one comes to expect more from an amp with a very high cost and make excuses for amps at a lower cost. "It only costs $4000, what do you expect?" My reference is not intended for any specific amplifier.
The point is an amp that costs $20k or more better sound great. Most often, a high price tag does not necessarily assure good sound, only that it may have been much more expensive to produce.
The Berning amps are quite good for the money as are many other amps in that price range or lower (George Wright's amlifiers for one.) Does this mean that they are comparable with something like the Tenor's, Lamm's or Atma-sphere's? No way!!!
Those out there under the impression they will get the same quality sound if they buy the Berning amps over the top amps costing quite a bit more, should realize that, in this case, you get what you pay for.
By the way, Mike Lavigne's system is the absolute best I have ever heard. I put together the Tenor/Rockport room at CES, that all the reviewers say was the best sound they ever heard, and I tell you, it does not even compare to Mike's system. If you ever happen to get the chance to hear it, your definition of good sound, will change forever. |
As an add to Allan's post, I think that the ZOTL design is the major reason why the amp can perform much higher than it costs. ZOTL allows much fewer parts and eliminates the real costly ones like the big$ output transformer and large banks of tubes. So you get the best of both worlds, lower cost and high performance. I hope David brings out a cost-no-object flagship amp that will get him the recognition he deserves for his innovative design. That would be an unbelievable shootout! |
in my pursuit of musical nirvanna i had spent some big dollars but still was unfullfilled......then i heard a friends system much more modest than mine that gave me much more musical pleasure and involvement...
Mike, I am so glad you said this, it makes me feel even more so that you do now have something really special going and not one of those, I spent it, they told me it was the best and it is, types.
Maybe that's why the Berning owners were so fast to disbelieve, these sort of money systems are really well known to everyone, well except to the guys with the money, as not being musical and pretty disappointing at times.
The Berning owners know what they have and I could tell you, I and others have done a few other shoot outs with more expensive well regarded amps and they were nowhere in the class as the Bernings.
So I think we both learned a couple things and some people were surprised in both camps.
The Berning camp must realize that there are products in the mega dollar class that are not a component status thing only and has real audio value.
Some in the Tenor camp has to come to grips with the fact that the Berning designs are at par to anything, it's easier to build a phenomenal amp at any cost, than to build a great amp at a steal. |
Tim, Berning amps are like a bad virus, just come close and you got one :) |
Mike- it is shameless!! my technics tt is far superiour to that rockport junk you use! What ever it takes to make one pleased with there system, emotional envolvement, to me a system what has good PRaT is usually a good system overall-I haven't heard many that I feel really get my foot tapping and get me as involved as my rhythmless self can be :) I just spent more on an interconnect then I did on my first mid-fi system-I am really starting to enjoy the sound though, so its worth it. btw I don't even own a turn table-but if I did I would use dental floss for the belt(can't afford that air drive stuff yet) with many knots in it!
And down with the berning cross :) had to throw my .02 in-lol I don't own tenor or berning and I have never heard the berning so I am just making a statement in jest-don't wave your berning torch in my direction!! don't want to get flammed.....ok I am really done now.
~Tim |
Allan, hopefully, you don't think i'm an audio snob....i certainly don't want to be. some comments in this thread mention that possibly Tenor owners are in another class or something like that.....i don't see it that way at all....just because you don't spend $100k on audio doesn't mean that you couldn't......or that $100k guarantees you audio happiness.....or $5k means you can't get close to the music.
what counts to me is passion and pursuit of musical truth.....and the enjoyment of that effort. more $$$ CAN give you choices you may not otherwise have.....but the choices have to be the right ones.....for you.
in my pursuit of musical nirvanna i had spent some big dollars but still was unfullfilled......then i heard a friends system much more modest than mine that gave me much more musical pleasure and involvement....i realized what i was missing.....at that point i reoriented myself to another direction that has resulted in much more enjoyment without many more dollars.
yes, i am shameless in my enjoyment of my system....but not at the expense of any other music lover's system. |
A hunka hunka Berning love. |
Asa, in this company my system is humble.
It consists of,
Front end
AVID, Volvere Turntable, SME arm, with a Audioquest 7000fe5
cartridge modified by Van den hul. Stage III concepts phono cable, silver cables with Silver RCA's
NAIM CDX, with Stage III concepts DIN to RCA IC, silver cables with silver pins in the DIN and silver RCA's.
Rack is a A.M.P Delta.
Current preamp is a modified Blue Circle BC3000, with stage III concepts umbilical between power supply and pre, hope to have new David Berning prototype preamp late this year.
Stage III Monument IC to power amps
Power amps are, David Berning prototype mono blocks, both low impedance and high voltage capable, directly driving a pair of Sound labs Millennium 3's with Stage III high voltage silver ribbon cable.
Direct drive amps also have high voltage multipliers for a 8KV static charge, it can however be made for much higher, 8KV charge is not high enough to give the Sound labs it's full efficiency, so I use the sound lab static charge transformer for that.
Mixture of stage III concepts and Van den hull PC's.
Everything is floated with Aurios, including the M-3's
Most the wall behind speakers are treated with acoustics first panels, as well as side walls up to speakers, room is 15x23.
just put together with lots of love for music, nothing awe inspiring, except maybe for the direct drive, it's the only pair in existence and maybe also the only pair of direct driven sound labs?
Mikelavigne is proberbly saying, hey, I threw all that stuff out last week :) |
i think we should rename this thread "the Berning love-in"
now.....let's all do a communal hug!
;^)
Enjoy the music, guys!! |
Allanbhagainfo: would you please tell me/us your system, including PC's, IC's, etc. Thank you. |
Ken, welcome to the Berning Owners Club. Enjoy. |
Well, Twl, may I join the club? Mine arrived the day before yesterday. Unfortunately, I have been pretty busy these days, and did a few hours listen only. So far, it sounds very good. Hope to report more later. Ken |
Ian: I happen to know that Tubegroover does wear a "Santos" mask when he is home relaxing on his own. Does this count? |
Ianrmack, you are going to love that amp. You will not believe how good it sounds till you actually plug it in and listen. It will be a shock. Even after all this talk about it, you can't realize the level you are at till you hear it. Make sure that you read the owner's manual first. Welcome to the Berning Owner's Club. |
Wow, how cool....!
All I have to say is that the UPS man is on his way to my house with a new Berning ZH-270 amp and I'm like a kid before Xmas. Tubegroovers comments are great. The fact that this amp can even be objectively compared with a pentultimate amp(s)like the Tenor and have pretty damn good results from three guys who seem to know what they hear.....that's just cool. Thanks, Mike & Co.
The only thing that would have made this test better (for me)......you may want to think about doing it blindfolded. It removes your subconscious, predetermined bias. It's what we all wish would happen on a professional reviewing forum or at a CES "shoot-out." |
This was an interesting article! I'm always curious about how the Berning designs compare with mainstream OTLs.
However, I've found that in testing components, often the devil is in the details. So much so, that the shootout might not be as conclusive as it seems.
In the shootout, was the Berning kept far away from any steel or iron objects, such as other components? Was it sitting on a steel shelf, or near a steel frame of a component stand?
I have the ZH-270. I have noticed--and Dave Berning has confirmed--that it is sensitive to nearby magnetic objects. This is why the case is made of aluminum.
You can try an experiment: wave a steel bookend or something like it over the amp and notice how the sound closes down! (This is true for many components, but perhaps the ZH-270 is especially sensitive because it has so little iron and steel in it to begin with.) You will get the best sound if you keep the amp well away from any steel.
Also, I have found that the sound changes depending on where you place the amp. On the floor, between two large floorstanding speakers, it didn't have the same tight bass control that it does when on a heavy wood table near a supporting wall; frankly, it was a bit boomy. Placed on the table, the boom went away! Further, although it sounds fine on its ordinary rubber feet, placing it on carbon fiber cones seems to change the sound, making the midrange clearer, I think, although this is something of a matter of taste perhaps.
I've tried a couple different power cords...they don't seem to make that much difference, although it is noticable. Interconnects and speaker cables had *much* stronger influence on the sound. Sometimes, I wonder if the cables make more of a difference that the amp; the changes are that large. (I'm comparing $300 vs. $500 silver interconnects. Not the most esoteric wires, but both well-regarded.)
Were the differences between the Tenor and the Berning something which could be accounted for by differences in their interaction with the cables used? Did you check if different cables changed the results? One cable might suit the Tenor better than the Berning. It's at least conceivable since the differences I've heard among cables are significant.
Did you use a preamp in the test? By virtue of it's most ingenious feature--a volume control and A/B switch--the Berning can dispense with a pre-amp and and extra pair of interconnects. Now, this may be "cheating" in a test against another amp which requires a preamp, but if you only need two inputs, the Berning let's you go direct, which can only improve matters. And save significant $. Was this advantage realized in the shootout?
Although Berning's power supply is rated to work with as little as 100V, I've noticed that at that level, power is significantly reduced, and sound suffers even playing at moderate levels. (I live in Japan, where 100V mains is standard, so I use a step-up transformer.) Run with 115V, the sound is much more dynamic and natural. Are you sure that mains voltage was to spec when you ran your shootout? It is not uncommon for it to sag during the day. |
I think we should keep this thread limited to the feedback on the Tenor and Berning amps. If Audiogon allows dealers who are also the sole distributors for other products to state an amp they sell is better than those mentioned, we defeat the idea of this forum. It becomes nothing more than an advertising venue. |
As one who was there, I would have to say that the difference in sound between the two amps was not subtle - the Tenors were clearly the more satisfying. I think tubegroovers comments about Mike's system are right on point - it has been assembled as an organic whole, with a clear purpose, and Mike has, through both luck and effort, achieved a wonderful sounding system - really magical at times (we listened to a 45prm recording of Louis Armstrong performing St James Infirmary that lingers in memory, wonderful even there, as the best recorded music expereince I have ever had).
My main purpose in taking the Berning over there (other than as an excuse to hear some good music on a great system) was curiousity about just how good the Berning would sound with components that gave it no place to hide. I certainly did not expect it to sound better than an amp costing 4x as much in a system built around that amp.
What I did discover, to my delight, is that the Berning sounded great. I can build around it by upgrading my other components for quite a ways up the ladder before having to make a change in the amplifier, because I have quite a ways to go before the Berning is the weak link. I have only been at this about 18 months, and so am enjoying the journey quite a bit. They are many roads to Rome, and many combinations of components to create a great system. Refining those choices is a lot of fun, not to mention listening to some great music and meeting terrific people like Mike. This has been a rewarding thread for me, as well, because I have gotten to know some other Berning owners.
Cheers,
David |
I am a Berning owner and I can tell you right now I would love to have someone give me a set of the 75w Tenors. I have the "lowly" MicroZOTL which is only 1 watt/channel,$750, and sounds like a million bucks with high eff. spkrs. I think this amp is the top contender for the best value for the money. Like the other Bernings, it has the sound quality of amps several times its price. I'm not going to put it head to head against the Tenors, but it has whacked a few high priced amps off the shelf that I have compared it to. Pure Class A, no feedback, triode ZOTL, with a volume control so you can run direct source input. I'll put my vote on the new Berning Monoblocks for the next shootout. In the meantime, if any Tenor owners would like to magnanimously donate me a pair of 75w amps, I would really appreciate it. |
Ohhhh boy.
It seems that there are a lot of Berning owners that are reading this thread and not joining in, now it seems that they are joined in an e-tar and feather plan for yours truly, for seemingly conceding to the Tenor/Kharma.
I really can't say any other thing than, there are 3 guys saying it's somewhat better, they heard it, I can't argue with that.
There is one guy in the thread saying, the ZH270 is just a great $4500.00 amp and that's all, it's obvious he has not heard the ZH-270 and maybe does not believe the 3 "reviewers" like I do. I can tell you this, it's either as good as they say $8-$10K, or it's better.
So to make this short, at this time I am giving the benefit of the doubt to the guys that were there.
Now, my idea for a real blind test goes totally ignored, why??? |
Mkb001 - "Why can't Berning guys think that the ZH270 is in the same league or class as the Tenors given the "total match and system"?
This isn't as important as to convey to folks what a great product the Berning is. If I paid 20K for an amp, I'm not too sure I would want it compared to one at 1/4 the price, would you? It seems Mike's system was assembled with great care and love with the ultimate goal of serving the music to the highest level that reproduced audio is capable of.
Cutting edge, State of the Art, Edge of the Art whatever definition you want to use. When you listen you just know something is more right than what you are typically accustomed to. The commnents above from all tell us this. I would just love to hear it period. Price isn't the issue, enjoyment is. We have made it an issue and tried to quantify price with performance=enjoyment. My system is a fraction of Mike's and although I may ultimately enjoy his more, I still enjoy mine as it too serves the music.
Nothing about the Berning has been diminished by this comparison and the outcome. Quite to the contrary, its reputation should grow especially when more get a chance to hear it first hand and make up their own mind. The fact that this design has elicited enough attention for it to be compared to a 20K amp in a complimentary system should be enough for readers that haven't heard either to sit up and take note of this great product. It is how I came to be a Berning owner and I stand firm about that choice. |
Allanbhaganinfo,
I am a bit confused with your last post regarding your notion of "league and class". Why can't Berning guys think that the ZH270 is in the same league or class as the Tenors given the "total match and system"? Why do Tenor guys have to use $80,000 speakers and not have "to worry" about running Spendors, Sound Labs, Acoustats? See what I mean?
Does it not ultimately come down to preference so why get hung up on the $$$$$$$ of a system? Last year's Absolute Sound system in New York by all accounts was a dud and so was this year's Million Dollar System at CES.
I learned a bit from this discussion and I wish more discussions were as good instead of the run of the mill "what is the best this or that" baloney that is so prevalent on the internet these days.
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Fatparrot: My statement regarding "power or transformer" when talking about Atma-sphere, should have specified the MA2's for power at 225 watts.
I am enjoying this thread and am excited for all the loyal owners of Berning amplifiers. You own a product that deservedly has your loyalty and the manufacturer should be pleased. |
Hi Hififarm
How heavy and where are these amps on your site? All I could find was a pre-amp at a modest 16K. I'm sure the heavy hitters and the rest of us are curious. It seems you have taken the lead in the search with such a statement.
I thought this started out as a friendly comparison between an over achieving 4.5k amp and the Tenors. Maybe a "best amp in the whole wide world" thread should be started before it gets too far off track and the ss guys DO show up! |
Oh boy Hififarm, I thought I should just warn you, the Tenor guys here are lynchers :)
Oh, this is not going to be pretty! |
I am a tenor dealer and think the amps are a good 19,000 amp but if you want the amps that stand alone at the top you need to audition the Audio Tekne tube amps.You also need to be prepared to spend heavy to aquire the best. |
mikelavigne, again you're so right, let's face it, at $4500.00, there has to be some compromises in the Zh-270 compared to the Tenor 75wi, I would have to concede that with the right speaker the ZH-270 cannot be in the same league as the 75wi.
Yes, NOS tubes will make the Berning better, yes, the ZH-270 used in the comparison was 6 years old and not the latest but even with any changes, I think the Tenors with a pair of $80,000.00 speakers will certainly always be the ultimate.
Bernings guys have to understand that it's the total match and system, not only the amps that are in question, Tenors, like their customers, are in a different league.
The ZH-270 was not design for that league, it was designed as a amp that will work in most systems, had the shootout been in DEL's home using his speakers, the out come may have been a lot different.
So Berning guys please understand, the ZH-270 is leagues ahead with anything else in it's class but the 75wi with the right speaker is in another class, and that's all the Tenor guys have been saying all along but some of you Berning lovers have not been listening to the whole sentence.
Who in their right mind would buy a ZH-270 and use Kharma Exquisite 1Ds, albeit might be a super great value but when in this class value is only a concern after the match, I am sure to persons in this class, the Tenor is good value.
The ZH-270 is not quite in this realm, what the ZH-270 does is sound remarkable with almost any speaker at a unbelievable price but when compared to a 75wi with Exquisite 1D, remarkable against this combo, falls a little short, an that's all the Tenor guys are saying.
The Tenor guys know that they are out gunned running your, Spendors, Sound labs, Acoustats, Wilson's an such but the Tenor guys don't care, this is not their class of speakers.
Let's face it guys, there's not one Berning owner with the keys to the executive washroom, it might bother you guys but that's life :) |
I think that we all need to keep in mind Mikelavigne's comment at the end of the first paragraph in his 4-18 posting--"on an appropriate speaker". We've all been around enough to realize how important system synergy is, and while there was some discussion at the beginning of this thread about whether the results of the shoot-out would be the same with, say, electrostatics, these little qualifying statements like "on an appropriate speaker" seem to get lost in translation. We end up talking and thinking in absolutes, as if the Tenor is 'better', PERIOD, at all times and in all contexts. Yes, we all put the qualifying statements in, but then proceed to ignore them. Not a criticism of audiophiles--just human nature. |
Chris (and all you Berning-believers), my reason for starting this thread was to explain that while the Berning is a bang-for-the buck leader.....it is not in the realm of the Tenor. the differences my original post described are the things that separate the "good" from the exceptional.....and there is no "free ride" to exceptional. i don't know how many "exceptional" amps there are (i haven't heard everything), but none i've heard are "as" exceptional as the Tenor on an appropriate speaker.
the law of diminishing returns is in full force at this level, but if you want the best.....you gotta pay. when i listen to the Berning (or many other "good to very good amps") i am listening to excellent hi-fi.....i think about the bass or treble or soundstage. when i listen to the Tenor on my system.....it is close to real.....i think about what the artist is saying or feeling.....the music is served and not the pieces. the comments from fellow listeners focus on the musical event....and how close we are to it.....i have never heard those types of comments listening to my system in the past or any other system.
at the heart of any system that aspires to this level of musical connection will be an exceptional amplifier and speaker combination.
i hope i am not starting round #5 (or is it #6 or #7) but i guess i am entitled to comment as i started this ........
anyway, thanks everyone for your thoughts and comments.....it has been fun and stimulating to read.
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A friendly comparison with a non 5 year old Berning (which has caps that may have problems from sitting around too long) with properly set feedback and the Tenors or Atmasphere amplifers would be an interesting bout. Price here is not an issue, as I feel all are in the same league. Simply place one amp (or amps) directly next to the other, performance vs. performance with no reservations in regards to price or reputation, status ect......
Maybe we should try this at a CES next year, I think it would be alot of fun and interesting at the same time. All flavors will be desireable I feel, all appealing to different people in different ways.
Back and forth with this ones better, that ones better, nobody will ever rest on the matter. Some have stated the Berning is not in the League with the Tenors or the Atmaspheres and that is what I simply do not believe based solely on the sonic integrity of the Berning. I wonder what reactions people would have if the Berning cost $12,000.00 and was spread across some audiophile publications? Would it then magically be in the same league because of price status and exposure alone or would people think, it has to sound great, it costs so much and so and so loves it.
Actually, a couple of ZH270's ran as mono blocks sound great but would that comparison (approx. $10k) be fair with the 70W Tenors? Price wise yes, sure but the output power would not be equal and in effect result in an unbalanced comparison.
I know the Tenors and Atmaspheres are great sounding amps, they have to be in order to have such a faithful following. Well you guys, think of how strongly Berning owners feel and I think you will find we are not on opposite sides but more like on different ends of the same bench :)
Chris |
Jtinn, the Atma-sphere amps are all OTL's. Your statement seems to indicate that they are not ("The Lamm's and Atma-sphere are next if more power or a transformer is needed.") I'm sure that this was just a syntax error in your post, since you are very well versed; I just wanted to set the record straight. |
jtinn, maybe you're right, I certainly can't dispute that but I am certainly open to showing everyone what a Berning is capable of, against any amp. |
"The Tenor amplifiers currently stand alone on top of the market, given the proper speaker. The Lamm's and Atma-sphere are next if more power or a transformer is needed".
Jtinn - You better clarify that statement or we'll end up with the ss guys over here and it may really get ugly :) |
