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Amp shootout.....Tenor 75wi verses Berning ZH270

in a recent thread there was much discusion of the above 2 amps, whether the Berning was indeed an OTL, and which one might be better.

i have no opinion as to whether the Berning is an OTL. but today a Berning ZH270 owner brought his amp over to compare to my pair of Tenor 75wi's. my system is OTL friendly, with easy to drive speakers, so the Berning's acknowledged advantage in driving difficult loads was neutralized.

these amps have very similar power, the Tenor is 75 watts into 8 ohms, the Berning is 70 watts into 8 ohms. otherwise it is not really a fair comparison....the Tenors are $19900 a pair, the Berning $4500, the Tenors weigh 70 pounds each, the Berning weighs about 10 pounds.....it seems like Goliath verses David. the result is somewhat closer than that.

we played three different discs and each of 3 people listened to their disc in the sweetspot. the Berning owner felt that the Tenor had a more dimentional sound, deeper soundstage but felt the Berning was equal in bass extension and detail retreival. the independent listener felt the Berning was excellent for the money but not in the league of the Tenor in any paramter. my perception was similar to the independent listner; that the Berning, at $4500, is amazing in it's top to bottom excellence, dynamics and musicality.....but....does not do things like the Tenor. the sense of space, detail in the soundstage, texture and microdynamics of the Tenor are at a whole different level.....and they better be for $15000 more.

like the Berning owners, i am a shameless Tenor lover and consider the Tenors better than any other amp i have heard at any price, assuming a reasonably easy load to drive.

the Berning is more like a $8k to $10k amplifier.....and Berning owners should be justifiably proud of their amps.

i did think the Berning had slightly more bass slam than the Tenor, but with much less bass articulation and extension than the Tenor.

we spent the rest of the enjoyable afternoon listening to some great vinyl......an enjoyable time had by all.
mikelavigne

Showing 10 responses by mikelavigne

mikelavigne OP
2,149 posts
 
Allan, i accept your challenge....i live in the Seattle area....this should be more of a fair fight....which the above was most definitely not.

let me know what i can do to assist setting this up.

and Albert, i agree the best part was the great vinyl.
mikelavigne OP
2,149 posts
 
Allan, the real issue to me is how do i as a music lover get the closest to the music. what products will allow me to remove barriers in the musical reproduction chain and allow me as complete musical enjoyment as possible.

my opinion is that an OTL amp with an appropriate speaker is the method that has the best chance of success. so the fact that the Berning can handle less than ideal loads has no value to me as i have already solved that issue with my speakers. why would i go looking for solutions to problems i don't have. when products (amps/speakers) are ideally matched the results can be amazing.

if you have pliers and i have a 10mm socket and we must loosen a 10mm bolt i have the ideal tool but yours will work ok with more varied situations.....why will i want to loosen some other size bolt with my 10mm socket? it is always best when possible to use the tool ideally suited for the job....for the best possible result.

sorry for the lame analogy.....

now, if the question is "what is the most flexible amplifier?" then our methodology would be different.
mikelavigne OP
2,149 posts
 
Kevin, if your friend has $15k Tenors, they are the 15 watt versions that you are comparing to your 90 watt Lamm ML1s. depending on the speakers you are using, your result is not too surprising.

the 15 watt versions are designed for the Lamhorns (100db efficient) made by Robert Lamare, one of the Tenor partners. a 15 watt OTL is a very wonderful amp, but has some real world limitations. i would also guess the 15 watt Tenors would shame your ML1s on the Lamhorns. everything is context.

i have heard the ML1s on the Kharma Grande Ceramique in the Lamm room at CES, and although very nice, sorry to say they are not close to the performance of the Tenor75Wi on the Kharma Exquisite 1Ds in my room.

your comments would sound ridiculous to any of the 20 or 25 audiophiles that have listened to the Tenors in my room. the most consistent perception is of the best bass extention and definition they have yet heard...... not wooley, loose, slam for slam's sake rock-concert bass.....but natural, articulate, bass that serves and integrates with the music.....extending flat to 25hz and with usable bass information below 20hz.

i have a friend that is the Musical Director and Conductor of a local regional orchestra. he will be recording an SACD this spring with FIM Recordings. when he was recently in my room he commented that it was the first time he had ever heard recorded bass sound "correct" as we were listening to his own recordings on my system.

we could both be right depending on context; maybe someday i'll have the ML1s or ML2s in my room to compare directly with the Tenors, but until then we'll all have to just try to compare what we have actually heard.
mikelavigne OP
2,149 posts
 
Kevin....ok...i'll bite....since until about a month ago i owned the only set of Kharma Exquisite 1Ds in the world and i am wondering just how you have such extensive experience with them to be sure they are "not a great speaker" and that some mystery speaker such as the Fischer & Fischer SL1000 "is better in every way than the Kharma 1D". a statement like that might not be too credible if you have never ever heard a Kharma Exquisite 1D (which is most likely the case).

if you want your comments on the Lamm ML1 or the Tenor75Wi to be considered seriously please confine yourself to judgements on products you have heard.

you also mention that your speakers are 88db efficient, if they also have a 4ohm impedence load or lower they would not be appropriate for the Tenor 75Wi and would cause the performance problems you describe. an OTL amplifier is great when used as intended, but is not as flexible as a conventional designe, such as the Lamm ML1.
mikelavigne OP
2,149 posts
 
Kevin, i recieved my 1ds in November 2001, they were the first set made. no other sets of 1Ds were delivered until January or Feburary of 2002. if you heard them in Holland, was that in Charles von Oostrom's room?

i am curious about your speakers.....are there any pictures or descriptions of this speaker on the web? i poked around a little and couldn't find any mention of this speaker or brand.
mikelavigne OP
2,149 posts
 
Chris (and all you Berning-believers), my reason for starting this thread was to explain that while the Berning is a bang-for-the buck leader.....it is not in the realm of the Tenor. the differences my original post described are the things that separate the "good" from the exceptional.....and there is no "free ride" to exceptional. i don't know how many "exceptional" amps there are (i haven't heard everything), but none i've heard are "as" exceptional as the Tenor on an appropriate speaker.

the law of diminishing returns is in full force at this level, but if you want the best.....you gotta pay. when i listen to the Berning (or many other "good to very good amps") i am listening to excellent hi-fi.....i think about the bass or treble or soundstage. when i listen to the Tenor on my system.....it is close to real.....i think about what the artist is saying or feeling.....the music is served and not the pieces. the comments from fellow listeners focus on the musical event....and how close we are to it.....i have never heard those types of comments listening to my system in the past or any other system.

at the heart of any system that aspires to this level of musical connection will be an exceptional amplifier and speaker combination.

i hope i am not starting round #5 (or is it #6 or #7) but i guess i am entitled to comment as i started this ........

anyway, thanks everyone for your thoughts and comments.....it has been fun and stimulating to read.

mikelavigne OP
2,149 posts
 
i think we should rename this thread "the Berning love-in"

now.....let's all do a communal hug!

;^)

Enjoy the music, guys!!
mikelavigne OP
2,149 posts
 
Allan, hopefully, you don't think i'm an audio snob....i certainly don't want to be. some comments in this thread mention that possibly Tenor owners are in another class or something like that.....i don't see it that way at all....just because you don't spend $100k on audio doesn't mean that you couldn't......or that $100k guarantees you audio happiness.....or $5k means you can't get close to the music.

what counts to me is passion and pursuit of musical truth.....and the enjoyment of that effort. more $$$ CAN give you choices you may not otherwise have.....but the choices have to be the right ones.....for you.

in my pursuit of musical nirvanna i had spent some big dollars but still was unfullfilled......then i heard a friends system much more modest than mine that gave me much more musical pleasure and involvement....i realized what i was missing.....at that point i reoriented myself to another direction that has resulted in much more enjoyment without many more dollars.

yes, i am shameless in my enjoyment of my system....but not at the expense of any other music lover's system.
mikelavigne OP
2,149 posts
 
Oneproof, when i first demoed the Tenors i did it on the Wilson watt/puppy 6s. the WP6 is among the most brutal speakers for an OTL; difficult impedence curve (6 ohm -- 2.3 ohm), and best normally with monster amps. in fact, my long-time reference had been the Levinson #33....i had also demoed the Halcro DM58 and the Atmasphere MA2 MkII.2 on the WP6. all those "big" amps were great on the WP6. but even with the dynamic limitations of the Tenor on the WP6, the Tenors were so much better than any other amp i was stunned.

if i still owned WP6s i would still own the Tenor 75Wi.

your answer is YES!!! the Tenors are THAT good. there are probably some brutal speakers somewhere that the Berning might be better on but i doubt it. the musical connection of the Tenors come thru......even though it is a shame not to optimize the Tenors.....even with a handicap they are something really special.

understand i am not saying that the Tenors are better than every amp on every speaker.....but it will require a great amp (read big $$$$) in a "native" situation for that amp to better the Tenor.

get yourself somewhere that you can hear the Tenors compared to another amp you know....it will literally jump out at you what they do.
mikelavigne OP
2,149 posts
 
i am really disappointed that my thread did not get to 100 posts in one week......come on guys.....where's the passion?

i think we beat this issue into submission......
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