jtinn, maybe you're right, I certainly can't dispute that but I am certainly open to showing everyone what a Berning is capable of, against any amp. |
Sometimes presentation can be altered to taste or preference, this is a very big factor, so it's really hard to say, I bet, had they experimented with the feedback switch, there also would be several different opinions on which position sounded the best.
This is too much fun, let's all get together at mikelagvine place this summer :)
Allan |
Wonderful observations, a great job in describing the differences, I wish I had been there :)
Now, if you really want to compare oranges and oranges, I have a pair of prototype Berning mono blocks that would retail for $15,000.00.
let's set something up for this summer :)
Fun, fun, fun :)
Allan |
Yes, you are so right but not everyone has that luxury to find the perfect speaker with the perfect impedance match, and for some, the perfect speaker is an electrostatic, or some sort of Planer, in which case normal amps have difficulties with, far less an OTL.
This is what this amp was designed to do, to take whatever can be thrown at it, an still give you what you hear with the perfect impedance speaker.
So using your analogy, as long as all your bolts are 10mm, then all you need is one tool but some people rather larger bolts, or some smaller ones and a more versatile tool is needed.
You're all set, you have found your Nirvana but what about the guys that have those Spendors, Quads or speaker like these, they deserve their Nirvana as well :) |
Wonderful Del, well written indeed.
Tireguy, I am glad to see that your Little nuts are metric :) a sorry try at a garage joke :)
This is what audio is all about, nice people trying things out, with real un-biased conclusions.
Thanks so much guys.
Allan |
David, you forgot the feedback switch, oh no, you have to go back now, we need to find out what it's like with lower feedback with this system :)
Understandable in your system, feedback was preferred but with this other system, I think low feedback might have been "IT".
Tenors I think are 0 feedback.
Feedback on the Berning could bring it closer, only one way to find out.
We await your second coming :)
You'll be on top of the list for that shoot out :)
Allan |
The feedback switch can be dramatic, the size of the sound stage is greatly altered, as well as bass.
It however may not be enough to change the out come, after all, most ZH-270's are in systems not costing as much as the Tenor alone, the 270 is not in that price league but it's nice to know it can play ball in that league :) |
How about this guys, since Tenor is in Canada, there is the Montreal show next year, March.
How about we all met in that wonderful city and have a blind test with Bernings, Tenors, Lamms and who ever wants to bring what.
Maybe a type of club an ask the manufacturers to participate.
What do you think?
If you can afford Lamms and Tenors, you certainly can afford to fly to Montreal, it's a great show and a beautiful city.
It's the poor Bernings guys that will have to take the bus :) |
Go back :) it's killing me. |
The Mono blocks uses the same tubes as the 270, however the power supply is beefier and some other differences.
These amps were really design and built as direct drives, they were sent to Roger West at sound lab, who to my conclusion was amazed by there design and reliability, I think that is one reason for the 3 month stay at sound lab.
They are capable of 110 watts into 8 ohms but 5500V peak to peak, I'm directly driving a pair of Sound lab M3's with them, all 7lbs each :)
I can barely lift the back plates out of the Sound labs, then I put these little light units in behind, direct to stator and boy oh boy.
I rather not comment on the sound, you'll have a hard time believing it, I have a hard time believing it.
We did some comparisons with the 270 and it was certainly in the same family but the mono blocks had something really special going for it :)
I know most of you know the 270, although light, they are by no means empty, the same and more can be said about these Monos, David Berning must have very small fingers.
The technology in these amps are mind boggling, can't really be had anywhere else. |
John.The 270's are easily strapped into Mono, some Berning customers do this now, it's however only necessary if you have a speaker that needs more power, there seems to be no degradation running the 270 mono but I would not think it would better a single 270 other than in control of power hungry speakers.
Some who have heard both say that the Monos I have, show some trait of two 270's strapped.
Hopefully somewhere this summer, we can really listen to all these togehter. |
I feel the only true way to do these comparisons, is at a show with the true and the brave manufacturers willing to do a fun comparison, with different cables and all.
It's really not a shoot out or a test, as always taste/preference will have a big factor, it's just a bunch of guys interested in this hobby, having fun.
You Tenor, Lamm, Joule, and others, customers, work on your amp company and see if they want to have some fun in Montreal next year.
Then we will all sit down and have some great Canadian beer and debate the OTL terminology, how better can it get :) |
I have had a number of e-mails from people interested in knowing more about the direct drive.
Here is a link to a picture of one of the David Berning Prototype Mono's amp/direct drive.
The Garfield ruler is to remind me of what will happen to me if I stick my hand in there.
As of late last night, I did not heed Garfield's warnings and have a nice black and blue finger tip to prove it.
http://www.abw.ns.ca/SimplyMusic/DSCN0055.htm |
mikelavigne, again you're so right, let's face it, at $4500.00, there has to be some compromises in the Zh-270 compared to the Tenor 75wi, I would have to concede that with the right speaker the ZH-270 cannot be in the same league as the 75wi.
Yes, NOS tubes will make the Berning better, yes, the ZH-270 used in the comparison was 6 years old and not the latest but even with any changes, I think the Tenors with a pair of $80,000.00 speakers will certainly always be the ultimate.
Bernings guys have to understand that it's the total match and system, not only the amps that are in question, Tenors, like their customers, are in a different league.
The ZH-270 was not design for that league, it was designed as a amp that will work in most systems, had the shootout been in DEL's home using his speakers, the out come may have been a lot different.
So Berning guys please understand, the ZH-270 is leagues ahead with anything else in it's class but the 75wi with the right speaker is in another class, and that's all the Tenor guys have been saying all along but some of you Berning lovers have not been listening to the whole sentence.
Who in their right mind would buy a ZH-270 and use Kharma Exquisite 1Ds, albeit might be a super great value but when in this class value is only a concern after the match, I am sure to persons in this class, the Tenor is good value.
The ZH-270 is not quite in this realm, what the ZH-270 does is sound remarkable with almost any speaker at a unbelievable price but when compared to a 75wi with Exquisite 1D, remarkable against this combo, falls a little short, an that's all the Tenor guys are saying.
The Tenor guys know that they are out gunned running your, Spendors, Sound labs, Acoustats, Wilson's an such but the Tenor guys don't care, this is not their class of speakers.
Let's face it guys, there's not one Berning owner with the keys to the executive washroom, it might bother you guys but that's life :) |
Oh boy Hififarm, I thought I should just warn you, the Tenor guys here are lynchers :)
Oh, this is not going to be pretty! |
Ohhhh boy.
It seems that there are a lot of Berning owners that are reading this thread and not joining in, now it seems that they are joined in an e-tar and feather plan for yours truly, for seemingly conceding to the Tenor/Kharma.
I really can't say any other thing than, there are 3 guys saying it's somewhat better, they heard it, I can't argue with that.
There is one guy in the thread saying, the ZH270 is just a great $4500.00 amp and that's all, it's obvious he has not heard the ZH-270 and maybe does not believe the 3 "reviewers" like I do. I can tell you this, it's either as good as they say $8-$10K, or it's better.
So to make this short, at this time I am giving the benefit of the doubt to the guys that were there.
Now, my idea for a real blind test goes totally ignored, why??? |
Asa, in this company my system is humble.
It consists of,
Front end
AVID, Volvere Turntable, SME arm, with a Audioquest 7000fe5
cartridge modified by Van den hul. Stage III concepts phono cable, silver cables with Silver RCA's
NAIM CDX, with Stage III concepts DIN to RCA IC, silver cables with silver pins in the DIN and silver RCA's.
Rack is a A.M.P Delta.
Current preamp is a modified Blue Circle BC3000, with stage III concepts umbilical between power supply and pre, hope to have new David Berning prototype preamp late this year.
Stage III Monument IC to power amps
Power amps are, David Berning prototype mono blocks, both low impedance and high voltage capable, directly driving a pair of Sound labs Millennium 3's with Stage III high voltage silver ribbon cable.
Direct drive amps also have high voltage multipliers for a 8KV static charge, it can however be made for much higher, 8KV charge is not high enough to give the Sound labs it's full efficiency, so I use the sound lab static charge transformer for that.
Mixture of stage III concepts and Van den hull PC's.
Everything is floated with Aurios, including the M-3's
Most the wall behind speakers are treated with acoustics first panels, as well as side walls up to speakers, room is 15x23.
just put together with lots of love for music, nothing awe inspiring, except maybe for the direct drive, it's the only pair in existence and maybe also the only pair of direct driven sound labs?
Mikelavigne is proberbly saying, hey, I threw all that stuff out last week :) |
Tim, Berning amps are like a bad virus, just come close and you got one :) |
Jtinn.
The interconnect used was not the same, the feedback setting was not tried, the amp was 6 years old.
let's do the blind test in Montreal, Tenors home town.
Talk is cheap, wait... in this case, talk is expensive!!!! |
in my pursuit of musical nirvanna i had spent some big dollars but still was unfullfilled......then i heard a friends system much more modest than mine that gave me much more musical pleasure and involvement...
Mike, I am so glad you said this, it makes me feel even more so that you do now have something really special going and not one of those, I spent it, they told me it was the best and it is, types.
Maybe that's why the Berning owners were so fast to disbelieve, these sort of money systems are really well known to everyone, well except to the guys with the money, as not being musical and pretty disappointing at times.
The Berning owners know what they have and I could tell you, I and others have done a few other shoot outs with more expensive well regarded amps and they were nowhere in the class as the Bernings.
So I think we both learned a couple things and some people were surprised in both camps.
The Berning camp must realize that there are products in the mega dollar class that are not a component status thing only and has real audio value.
Some in the Tenor camp has to come to grips with the fact that the Berning designs are at par to anything, it's easier to build a phenomenal amp at any cost, than to build a great amp at a steal. |
i think we beat this issue into submission......
More like drove it into submission, with a ford Taurus. |
Twl, yes, it was a, "can I listen the my amp in your awesome system" type of deal, not a real shoot out but I think the ZH-270 was surprising to the listeners.
I did not expect Mike to get new interconnects but the comparison should not have been that critical and maybe it as not, but some are trying to make it seem so, we all know the differences that and IC can make, it was an insertion of an amp for a quick comparison, not a true one on one, like some are making it out to be.
Although, yes, the Berning showed some of its true nature, it did not show all of its true nature, with a handicap of a much different IC, a 6 year old model and in a system tweaked for the Tenor, as well without trying different feedback positions, almost defeated the purpose altogether.
Those of you that know Berning amps, also know that the feedback positions are not subtle, with the Tenor being a 0 feedback, the low feedback on the Berning should have been tried, those of you that have tried different IC's also know that is not a subtle change.
So all this talk about Taurus's and BMW's, are only meant to distract.
One on one, on equal turf, that's all the guys are asking for now.
If there are any Audio Societies out there that are willing, I am sure there will be Berning owners more than happy to make their amps available. |
