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Amp shootout.....Tenor 75wi verses Berning ZH270

in a recent thread there was much discusion of the above 2 amps, whether the Berning was indeed an OTL, and which one might be better.

i have no opinion as to whether the Berning is an OTL. but today a Berning ZH270 owner brought his amp over to compare to my pair of Tenor 75wi's. my system is OTL friendly, with easy to drive speakers, so the Berning's acknowledged advantage in driving difficult loads was neutralized.

these amps have very similar power, the Tenor is 75 watts into 8 ohms, the Berning is 70 watts into 8 ohms. otherwise it is not really a fair comparison....the Tenors are $19900 a pair, the Berning $4500, the Tenors weigh 70 pounds each, the Berning weighs about 10 pounds.....it seems like Goliath verses David. the result is somewhat closer than that.

we played three different discs and each of 3 people listened to their disc in the sweetspot. the Berning owner felt that the Tenor had a more dimentional sound, deeper soundstage but felt the Berning was equal in bass extension and detail retreival. the independent listener felt the Berning was excellent for the money but not in the league of the Tenor in any paramter. my perception was similar to the independent listner; that the Berning, at $4500, is amazing in it's top to bottom excellence, dynamics and musicality.....but....does not do things like the Tenor. the sense of space, detail in the soundstage, texture and microdynamics of the Tenor are at a whole different level.....and they better be for $15000 more.

like the Berning owners, i am a shameless Tenor lover and consider the Tenors better than any other amp i have heard at any price, assuming a reasonably easy load to drive.

the Berning is more like a $8k to $10k amplifier.....and Berning owners should be justifiably proud of their amps.

i did think the Berning had slightly more bass slam than the Tenor, but with much less bass articulation and extension than the Tenor.

we spent the rest of the enjoyable afternoon listening to some great vinyl......an enjoyable time had by all.
mikelavigne

Showing 11 responses by twl

twl
3,251 posts
 
The feedback switch does more than just change the amount of feedback. It also changes the output impedance of the amplifier, which can have dramatic effect on the amp's ability to drive certain loads. In the Normal Feedback mode, it has 1.8ohms output impedance which should give best damping, but in the Low Feedback mode, it has about 8ohms output impedance, which would only be good for higher impedance speakers(16ohms). What kind of speakers were used and what load do they present? The setting used may or may not have been the correct one.
twl
3,251 posts
 
After checking the Kharma website, the Exquisite 1D has a 4ohm to 8ohm load, so the Normal Feedback setting on the Berning ZH270 was the correct setting for them.
twl
3,251 posts
 
Very interesting thread.I agree with Kris about the NOS tubes, but if the Tenors were stock, then the Berning should be also.If the Tenors had tube upgrades, then the Berning was at a disadvantage with the stock Russian tubes. I know NOS tubes made a great difference in my Berning. What kind of tubes are in the Tenors? I essentially agree with Mike that the Tenors should come out on top, given the price disparity, and maybe the higher price included better tubes. I do think that a better comparison would bave been the Berning Seigfried 300b SET ZOTL. The zh270 is a push/pull amp with feedback and that circuit is not quite up to the Tenors' circlotron. The fact that it even got into the ball park is quite a testament to its quality. Most listeners would prefer a single ended sound to a push/pull. I notice no mention of a transformer induced ring, phase shift, or treble rollof by the reviewers about the Berning. So regardless of the argument about OTL/nonOTL the Berning apparently did not exhibit these typical transformer induced characteristics. Mike, we appreciate this shootout you did, as it gives us the chance to gain info from your experience.
twl
3,251 posts
 
I am a Berning owner and I can tell you right now I would love to have someone give me a set of the 75w Tenors. I have the "lowly" MicroZOTL which is only 1 watt/channel,$750, and sounds like a million bucks with high eff. spkrs. I think this amp is the top contender for the best value for the money. Like the other Bernings, it has the sound quality of amps several times its price. I'm not going to put it head to head against the Tenors, but it has whacked a few high priced amps off the shelf that I have compared it to. Pure Class A, no feedback, triode ZOTL, with a volume control so you can run direct source input. I'll put my vote on the new Berning Monoblocks for the next shootout. In the meantime, if any Tenor owners would like to magnanimously donate me a pair of 75w amps, I would really appreciate it.
twl
3,251 posts
 
Ianrmack, you are going to love that amp. You will not believe how good it sounds till you actually plug it in and listen. It will be a shock. Even after all this talk about it, you can't realize the level you are at till you hear it. Make sure that you read the owner's manual first. Welcome to the Berning Owner's Club.
twl
3,251 posts
 
A hunka hunka Berning love.
twl
3,251 posts
 
Ken, welcome to the Berning Owners Club. Enjoy.
twl
3,251 posts
 
As an add to Allan's post, I think that the ZOTL design is the major reason why the amp can perform much higher than it costs. ZOTL allows much fewer parts and eliminates the real costly ones like the big$ output transformer and large banks of tubes. So you get the best of both worlds, lower cost and high performance. I hope David brings out a cost-no-object flagship amp that will get him the recognition he deserves for his innovative design. That would be an unbelievable shootout!
twl
3,251 posts
 
Once again, I remind you of the Seigfried. It is a better comparison. As I said before, the ZH270 is push pull with feedback, and the Seigfried 811/300B is single ended with no feedback. It has less power, but it is the top of the line Berning. Someone should do a shootout with it against the smaller Tenors, so the power levels would be similar. I think that would be a much closer call.
twl
3,251 posts
 
My Berning with NOS tubes sounded much better that with the stock JAN Phillips/Russian tubes. Glare was gone. Detail much better. Bass much improved. It was like a "new" amp upgrade. I have the MicroZOTL and put in Mullard NOS 6201(12AT7) and Sylvania NOS 6SN7-WGT(1940's). Improvement was NOT subtle. Entire re-tube was under $200. I know nobody thinks the little MicroZOTL at 1 watt per channel can be a heavyweight sonic contender, but that is wrong. With the right high efficiency speaker, it is one of the sweetest sounding amps you can buy. Do not underestimate this little amp. It is truly a "David" in a world of "Goliaths". For those on a budget that want world class sound, this is the best way I can think of to do it. I am not pulling your leg, this is for real. If you've already got a great main system, and you are thinking of putting together a second system for the office or bedroom, or something, you can use the MicroZOTL with a set of high eff. spkrs. and a single source(no preamp needed, has volume control). You will get audio nirvana for peanuts. No, it will not simulate the sound levels of the Pink Floyd concert at Shea Stadium. But, for real world enjoyment it will do nicely. It is truly, as Harvey "Dr. Gizmo" Rosenberg put it," The best $750 amp in the world." And I will add, better than many amps that I've heard up to ten times its price. Definitely worth checking out. Must use NOS tubes to fully realize the quality.
twl
3,251 posts
 
I believe that Mike was being genuine in his efforts to get a good shootout. He didn't have to do this and has nothing to gain. His system is better than most of us will ever hear. It is optimized for his Tenors, and you can't expect him to buy all new interconnects and speaker cables just to have a shootout. So I accept his findings for exactly what they are. A one time comparison with his system where the Tenors sounded better. I don't feel any less "good" about my Berning amp as a result of this. In fact, I am happy that it is thought highly enough of to rate a shootout with the top rated amps in the world. Not all comparisons will come out the same.I thank the participants for their efforts and trouble in doing this to report to us. We Berning owners can feel good knowing that with NOS tubes and a well matched system, the Berning amps go to a much higher level over the stock tubes, not a subtle difference. In my mind, this will take the Berning up to a level that is plenty close enough to anybody's amp. So why should I care if someone else likes Tenor's a little better in their system. I know mine sounds great and that is all that matters to me. For the cost-no-object guys, if they feel that the difference is worth all that money, they should go for it. It's their money and their system. We all want to feel happy with our systems and whatever it takes to get there is what we do as audiophiles. I am not a cost-no-object guy and I got top quality sound for a miniscule fraction of what Mike spent for his super system. I am happy with that. I'm sure Mike is happy with his. Let's all be happy and look forward to the next shootout with a Seigfried or the new Monoblocks. Can't wait!
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