Am I the only one who thinks B&W is mid-fi?

Nik, that sums things up kinda nice. But i don't give B&W as much credit as you. Frankly there are not many reasonably priced speakers that are class "A". If you don't know what class "A" is or don't even believe in such a hypothesis, well then what can i say. The French lab, Traingle claims Class "A" for one of their models, $2K. One member says they deliever, vs the Theil 1.6's that fall way short of the mark in the lower bass region. But are the Traingle class "A"??, hard to say. Here's my opinion, nothing more, maybe not even worth 2 cents, the Seas kit called Thor is class "A". That's a reference speaker for the price group under $3K. Now Vandy's 2ce, over B&W, yea that's acceptable. Maggies, no go. ML's, with a big Krell, yes,$$$. But its not for me. B&W's are not class "A", lets leave it at that.

I think everything is relative. If youre worried about the price vs. performance ratio on speakers i.e. B&W you can do what I did, and wait a few years and get a mint used pair at a much lower price. Hey, its the same with cars, would you spend a hundred grand on a Ferrari that gets you from point A to point B When a Chevy or Toyota Will do the same For a lot less. It's all about what the market will bear. Although B&W is expensive the sound quality is what matters. The R&D that goes into the speaker insures the technology will be cutting edge for years to come. Look how long the Matrix 801 has been in class A. And now the silver signature. Yours in audiodom, Poloman.

Asa and Unsound, B&W speakers in general do not mate well with tube amps. Mostly the speakers require a high current amp (not wpc but current) to make them open up and sing. See the Enjoy the music review of the Pass X-250 amp where they feel the high current amp really makes the 803s sing. As always, what sounds right for one does not always sound right to another. I own a pair of 803s and know there are better speakers out there. I also know that I need a very good components and system matching to get the best performance that I am looking for from my system.

Peace.

For my $0.005 I agree that they seem bright and not too involving. I had N802s for a while and was glad to get rid of them (now I know why I got such a good deal on them from the last guy!). For their retail price, they were not good. For the used price, they were ok. I have only auditioned the N801s and N804s with the latter being like the 802s and the former pretty good but at what price? I am basically finished with having my ears strained by B&W. They do look darn good however. Arthur

Aball, what was you pre / amp / and CDP?
So what's better than N803 Bigkidz? I'm still searching. Only ATC so far. But if you're into tubes the new Coincident Victory really kicks butt. Or maybe Von Schweikert DB100 (haven't heard them)

After NOT reading all the above posts, I must agree that I found the N803 WAY too bright in my room in the nearfield.
Interestingly their power response was superb, as they sounded GREAT from an adjacent room! Yeah, that damned tweeter's awfully hard to tame, the midrange is too shelved, and the woofers cross too high, so coherence in an issue, as well that seringly-bright tweeter EQ.
Interestingly their DM602S3 is darned good for the $ if you can stand their awkward industrial look.

Subaruguru what amp/CDP/cable combo? Many comments about B&W being bright but that can have a lot to do with other components, room, or music.
Triangles aren't bright? Paradigms aren't bright? Von Schweikerts aren't bright? Thiels aren't bright?
I found aiming the speakers so they cross behind my head is better.

Cdc, At the time (2001): Modded Rotel 855 on Neuance through Pass Aleph P and 2 monos. It wasn't the upstream chain, as other speakers sounded better, and equally detailed...and imaged better (better pair-matching and coherence in the nearfield). Yes, Triangles and Thiels (exc the new 1.6) are too bright for me, too, but the Nautilus tweeter is just insufficiently padded, even in my very damped room....
BTW, sitting slightly OFF-axis exacerbates the brightness with the Nautilus 803-5 as the upper cross is at 4kHz, so the wider-dispersion tweeter REALLY flares out off axis as the already-recessed fine midrange driver further weakens in the upper mids as it progressively gets beamy.
Maybe putting a couple of grillcloths over the tweeter could take it down a dB or so? Would be a good start, eh?
Good night. Ern

Just because Thiels, Triangles, and (I'll add) Chapman T-7s might all be bright, does not mean the B&W Nautilus 803's are not bright. All four could be bright. Some manufacturers seem to favor a bright-ish presentation.

Brightness and detail don't necessarily go together--as others have pointed out. Some of the more revealing speakers I've heard are also relaxed sounding: Ruark Solstice, mbl 101, and Maggie 3.6.

I spent an afternoon with the N 803's. Amplification was either Chord or YBA. "Bright" did NOT come to mind. Somewhat dull and uninvolving did. They seemed to need lots of power to come alive. Both rooms were large--no near-field listening. Cabling, rooms, and associated equipment could have accounted for my impression.

Nothing about the N 803's seemed worthy of their price nor the notice they seem to garner. Perhaps another audition under different conditions would prove otherwise

I had the same reaction. I listened to 803s powered by a Mark Levinson integrated amp and was terribly unimpressed. Muddy, confused sound stage, and no high end were my first impressions.

I agree, personally I find the B&W + Levinson (383, etc.) combination very bland and uninvolving (and I own and am very happy with N803s). Remember that system matching is probably THE most important aspect of good sound. It isn't as simple as good speakers + good amp = good sound.

I have listened to various B&W for over twenty five years, including the original 800's 801's, 802 etc. I also listened to the one that looked like, and it may have had an electrstatic element in it. Most of the systems I have heard that had B&W in them sound veiled and cloudy; this observation included WFMT's system in Chicago.

Then I heard a friend's 801 system that consisted of Roland Amps, Basis Table and Cal CD Player. This system had depth, imaging and transparency. it sounded like no other B&W system I had ever heard. It was truly impressive. I Have subsequently only heard one other B&W system with the new 801 Series or whatever its called sound spectacular. This system was an all Meridian system.

I have heard newer systems that again had the veiledboomy and cloudy sound. I can only say these speakers must be very picky about electronics. The sound was that dramatic from great to mid-fi.

I agree with Danny. I've heard the Matrix series powered by cheesy amps like Sunfire and other hometheater amps. They were definitely veiled.

I also heard them powered by Nakamichi PA-5 and PA-7, Rowland... dunno model, and White Audio. The Matrix(es) sounded damn good. Still not as good as the Von Schweikerts that we were comparing them to head to head though.

Ok, I'm new to the chat room, not the classifieds but I had to tell you, I have owned the 801 matrix 2 for 11 years and have had them with Threshold SA1 , Krell KSA 250, CJ EV 2000 and now the CJ MF2500A solid state amp with the Premier 17LS pre, XLO cables and I can't tell you how good it sounds. I have been through so much gear over the years and the 801's are the only thing to stay around. They really are system dependent from electronics to especially cables believe me I have tried a lot and it does make a BIG difference. The only bad thing is B&W no longer is supporting making replacement parts and speaker replacements. I just blew a woofer and it cost me $500.00 to replace it. (rock and hard place) I still don't know what I can get to replace them however. I have checked out Theil, Spendor, Dynaudio, Totem but still from top to bottom on ALL types of music I just love these things!!! Anhybody got replacement cone repair kits out there??

It funny you asked that question.
I am looking to upgrade speakers. I have middle
of pack Infinity's they have done a great job
for price point but im looking to get to next level.
I specifically had four speaker brands in mind
before i heard the B&W'S now i have three. Revel,
Martin logan and Infinity MTS series.
I recently had a chance to listen to the 801's
they were being driven by a Macintosh something
i was told about 200wpc. The first thing i noticed
was a Velodyne sub parked between them so i asked
the salesman to turn off sub and re-direct all bass
to 801's. I was shocked how they sounded. The only
thing that stands out in my mind was a haze that seemed
to cover music and a real lack of low end. It took me
a total of about 60 seconds to take these of my short
list. VERY DISSAPOINTING. I will say that the room
was not ideal and I would guess my Bel Canto EVO6 would
do a much better job of driving them but there was just
nothing that appealed to me about them. Sorry i dont
mean to flame anyone who has purchased B&W's just my
opinion.

Without a doubt, B&W speakers are FAR from top notch sound.

I have been on the lookout for a new set of speakers to replace my NHT 2.5i's (which sound pretty darned good, but somewhat sterile) I'm replacing them b/c my current room is actually too small for them (they need room to breathe).

Listened to B&W's (804's, I think) with a variety of amps (bryston 4bst, musical fidelity (not sure which), anthem). While I was certainly able to distinguish sonic attributes amongst the amps, the speakers were very, VERY disappointing. Sure, they are able to set up a semi - 3d soundstage, but overall the sound was flat, lacklustre and veiled. These speakers lacked in dynamics and overall performance left me wondering why anyone would spend so much money on the B&W line.

Maybe it's just my taste (which I admit is very likely). But in my opinion, I can find much MUCH better sound at a fraction of the cost.

And no, I'm not new to the audio game. I've been fiddling with this stuff for 17 years, so I do know what I'm looking for.

Cdc - first off I had a Krell KSA100 with 250p and just got tired of the sound. I then had a Classe CA100 for a while, tried a bunch of borrowed amps, ended up getting McIntosh 7100 and 712 from acquaintances which I really like and the B&W sounded pretty decent - they do change with components so maybe I just never got the right ones for it. Then I got rid of the B&Ws and got Paradigm Reference 100.2 for a sweet deal new and am very satisfied. For the price they are downright amazing. Sold the 802s locally for the same as what I paid. CD was always the same - Sony ES 5-disc. Arthur

Spluta, that was my point about B&W revealing the source. I went right from my listening room (N804 / Musical Fidelity) to the dealer who had N802 and McIntosh. McIntosh threw a big veil over the sound. Some people like this.
Aball, Krell could be tiring. I heard Classe on Revels F30 then deasler switched to Musical Fidelity / M20. Lost a lot of high frequency energy. Maybe that is better.
Paradigm is great for the money.

Cdc..

I definetly was not impressed with Mc and 801 sound.
My expectations were very high for 801 and i was really
dissapointed. I looked for pwr conditioner.. They did have one hooked up. So i couldent blame that. If i get the chance
i will listen closely to B&W's with some different amps.

I also had a much different take on the F30's and M20's. With different amps. The F30's were paired with Proceed amp and pre. The M20's were paired with Rotel gear (yeah i know).

I was really impressed with both especially bass and midrange on F30's. But the M20's really stood out as much better than I expected. Especially with the gear that was running them. Overall i would rate them both very high on my list. Im very confident my amplification could really get them where i want to go.

I do understand the effect's different gear can have on
any good speakers. I always try to take that into consideration.

I will check out Paradigm's also...

Thanks,

Steve

I first heard the N802 when they came out at my dealer with McIntosh and I didn't like them. I finally took the plunge and sold my Matrix 801 III w/North Creek crossovers for the N802's. They are very realistic sounding like nothing I ever thought I would hear like them. With my Krell there is so much information musically revealed that I have never looked back or moved to sell anytime soon. I have owned Kef, ML, Magnepan, Pro Ac and have heard Wilson's and more. I hated to see my tweaked 801's go but these are definately worth it :-)

B&W's success lies in their aggressive marketing tactics...a large number of studios use their monitors...but then again...Mcdonald's is the worlds largest restaurant chain...too many equate "bigger with better"...the majority of their sales is based on name recognition...and I would have to agree with some of the above posts...at their prospective price points...and without much effort...one can always find a speaker that outperforms the equivalent B&W (often for much less)...they are for many....a "safe" choice...like Mcdonalds...for better or worse...you know what you are getting...my gripe is less about their sound...more about their inflated price...to catergorize them as "mid fi" is a bit harsh...

Upgraded My Polk Monitor 10B speakers to the B&W Matrix 802 series3. Using B&K ex442 and ARC LS-7 No fancy wires or tweaks. Let me tell the sound is fantastic you guys have jaded ears. Yeah there might be better out there, but you have to spend mega bucks to get better sound. Yeah maybe I could upgrade the amp or cables, but you have to know when to leave well enough alone. You wouldnt upgrade your wife for a better model, would you? (although youd like to ). I had the Polks 10 years. Probably Have the B&W's another ten. Used, they're the best Value around, Period!

To Spluta,
first of all, no wonder you didn't like the N801's, driven with a measly 200W! The 801 requires at least 300 and even more before they begin to open up. That particular model could really benefit from bi-amping. This thread just amazes me how ridicoulously biased it is toward a fantastic speaker iine. Any of the Nautilus line from the 804 on up is very revealing, "junk in = junk out" The electronics matched have a lot to do with the end result. I recently heard a set of 802's powered with a Krell, it was muddy. the same set powered with a Threshold was majical. I have a set of N804's powered with a Classe 300 amp, Classe pre and CDP and the synergy is great. I will agree that the BW line tends to be overpriced, but the Nautilus line of speakers are definetly not the kind of junk some of you want to portray it as.

I have heard alot of B&W speakers.Ihave never been impressed.They are good at marketing to yuppies, thats about it!

I'd like to know what specific speaker model(s) the original poster listened to. The B&W line sound very different across the board, as just about any line of speakers. What kind of equipment was driving the B&Ws? A speaker's sound is only relative to what's feeding it, especially B&Ws.

Back while I was in college in the late 80s, wanting to upgrade my entry level bookshelf speakers, I auditioned Polk, Infinity, Canton, B&W, etc. The B&Ws I listened to were mid level floorstaninding ones in their line. They were ok, but didn't impress me in any way and could be catagorized as "mid-fi". The sound wasn't very balanced. The lows were a bit overpowering and not as well defined as I would've liked. I was disappointed. But, for kicks I had the salesman switch to the 801s (then B&W's flagship). He switched the speaker cables to the 801s and turned up the amp. WOW! Unbelievable. Very open and revealing. Didn't sound boxy. The highs, mids and lows were very well balanced in relations to each other. The highs were unbelievably clean and not fatiguing at all. The mids were very smooth and the low end was well defined and not boomy at all.

After listening to the 801s I was ruined for anything less, especially the B&Ws I auditioned just before the 801s! But a college student like myself could never dream of affording the 801s....

Truth be told, after being tired of auditioning speakers at various dealers, I settled on a pair of Bose 6.2s (you can bash that one too) and tried desparately to forget about the wonderful music the 801s put out. They (the Bose) sounded okay in the dealer's showroom, but sounded much better at home. That's when I learned one of the cardinal rules of audio: if possible, audition in your home. There are a lot of variables when audtioning equipment at various dealers, but the one constant is what you have at home, in terms of both equipment and acoustics. Years later and being in the market to start a whole new system from scratch, I'm going to take a serious look at B&W's Nautilus line, perhaps the 805s.

Audio, like anything else is relative. People who are musicians hear differently than people who aren't. Musicians who play electric instruments hear differently than musicians who play acoustic instruments, etc.

L

Hi, Mikez!

I agree with you when saying "B&W is mid-fi".
There are some very good models but only in the very high price regions (the "bigger" Nautilus models). The one, and perhaps the only I really liked, was the B&W 801 matrixIII loudspeakers-they were truly great speakers in their time (and very good even these days, i believe).

The majority of their speakers over the past years are left behind many, even smaller, speaker brands soundwise. Where I think they excell is finish and especially marketing. They allways look very pretty(what is a good thing but don't make them sound better) and impressive.

But thats my oppinion (and oppinions are just that - nothing more)... I'm sure there are people out there who like their B&W speakers and it's good so.

Best regards to all of you,
David.

Had my N803's FR for nearly 2 years. Not happy at all. Started off with N805's but they were no good so relegated them to being back speakers in my surround system. Thought I'd give some time to like them but really couldnt. Good for Home Cinema but awful for music. Currently in the process of selling off all my Home Cinema gear since I listen to more music know. Will buy Revel Studios instead...will sound good when I get my Cello Performance II amp!

Nice to hear an honest owner of B&W speakers. Good luck and happy listening with your new speakers.
Cheers!

So the only 'honest' owner of B&W speakers is the one that doesn't like them ? Or does it just conform to your point of view ? I like my N803s. Honest !

WOW!..looks like you touched a "chord" here with Audiogoners! Indeed B&W must sell lots of speakers by the response they got here.

Can we say flame bait?

LOL!

Uh...sorry!
What i meant is an honest person. Honest enough to say that it's not satisfied with it's component/s. Many people can't or will not admit that they aren't happy with some gear/system - it's always: what i got is best.
Please take no offence.
Sorry for the wrong choice of words!
Cheers!

Very little offence taken. Just the tiniest bit actually. But it's Friday and I'm over it now ! Think I'll put some Wagner on and enjoy my speakers. Actually it's the music I enjoy and the speakers are just part of a enabling tool. Tough to have an emotional attachment to something inanimate. Even if they 'sound' good. But the music ...

Enjoy the music
and
Happy listening
to all!!!

Let me confess to not reading all the posts here. But I have heard numerous B&W speakers, which spread enormously (like Measles?: remember we need to have had the stuff once) in Mexico City, where I write from. In my auditioning experience, for example, Dynaudio beat the B&W hands down -- the latter sounding very ordinary(mid-fi/lo-brow?) at diffrent price ranges. This might also be because the B&W stuff tends to be sold here through chi-chi superstores, which have minimal discrimination (though now AND AGAIN excellent sales-folk). It was the the last who led me to what I do own by way of speakers and amps, Margules Audio, indigenous to Mexico -- super stufff I find, but at least I am not bashing any mark/marca.

I used to work at a dealer that sold both B&W and Dynaudio and I have had ample opportunity to compare these brands. They are both excellent but they are different, one is not "better" than the other. What cannot be stressed enough is that system matching is what makes or breaks the sound and usually if the match doesn't work the speakers get blamed. The old joke is a guy walks into a demo room with unfamiliar gear and says "Nice preamp". If you haven't heard the gear in a familiar context you are judging blindly. The B&Ws are more revealing of any harshness in the electronics while the Dyns can be little more forgiving. We also sold Sonus Faber, which was easily bested by these brands in the lower price points, but once you got up the Signum and above they were on par. On that note, it really just amounts to whether you prefer chocolate or strawberry.

Sometimes I really wonder if most of the "audiophiles" who frequent this board and many like them have ever heard any type of real live music. If you base what a speaker is supposed to sound like on different recordings than you are missing 100% of what an audio system is supposed to be doing. And I don't mean going to a concert either, I mean real live instruments up close and personal in a room that may be not too different from the size of most listening rooms. I know that disqualifies most classical music (I am a jazz fan), but in listening to actual instrumnents in a real space weekly I have come to the conclusion that even dealers have no idea what real music should sound like. Most systems sound like hi-fi and nothing more, including some very well regarded and expensive speakers( B&W, Wilson, and many others.). And to me the argument that you have to hear a 20k speaker system in your home with the perfect components to match in order to really hear it makes absolutely no sense. Dealers are trained to set up the equipment they sell and in the case of my local dealer, a rep from Wilson actually comes down there to set the speakers up. Why are you selling speakers if you don't know how to make them sound great, especially at these prices? To my ears Wilsons are good but not great speakers, I have never believed I was hearing anything like an actual performance. And B&W speakers don't sound anything like music to me, and I have heard ( on too many occasions to count) not only the Signature 800s but the actual Nautilus speaker driven by 8! Mark Levinson Reference 33 monoblocks, an all ML Reference front end, and a Goldmund Turntable all connected with Transparent's top cabling! And I have to say that I was truly impressed by the sound, just as I am when I hear the Watt Puppy 7s driven by all Levinson electronics and amps but it never sounds like real instruments to my ears. And that especially goes for the Signature, I don't know who voices those things but music is not what they sound like in the least. Granted it is almost impossiblt to find a recording that captures music truthfully (try a Mapleshade recorded saxaphone), but still I just don't hear real music when I hear these systems. This is all just my opinion, but I say go out and hear real music in a real space and come home and listen to your system and especially your local dealer's system and do the math.

I'd much prefer to see The Ring Cycle, to pick an extreme example, live at Bayreuth. But the waiting list for tickets is 25 years. Yes, it's a noble goal to get all your musical experiences live when you want it where you want it. A hi-fi system and the related media allows one to defer ones enjoyment, or otherwise in your case apparently. This, for most folks, has a high value-add. Extremely high for some here.

So now, for those of us who are prepared to compromise and listen to 'music' via our systems, the goal is to attempt to reproduce that 'music' from available media sources as accurately as possible. Sure it's a compromize. But it's just like going to Bayreuth and having a Brunnhilde who can't hack it all the way through Gotterdammerung. It can get ugly. My B&W (N803s) enable me to come relatively close to what's layed down on the media. Whether it's music or not is subjective. It's good enough for me.

You are not only not the only one who thinks that B&W is mid-fi, you are one of many who make blanket statements about audio products from this or that company. Maybe just this company-B&W, in this case, but nonetheless a huge faction.

I see much B&W bashing on this site. I had to respond. I have been in audio for many years ~30 years to be exact. I've heard many speakers; Dahlquest, Avid, Proac, Dynaudio, Infinity, Advent (yes I'm 50), Paradigm , Thiel, JBL, Sonus Faber, ...etc. When I decided to upgrade from my Avid 103's and Proac Super Tablettes. I listened to B&W, Dynaudio (1.3SE, 1.3 MKII, Audience 52) and Paradigm Studio 20's, Sonus Faber Concerto/Concertino. I found that the Dynaudio's are much overrated. People go on and on about how B&W are expensive for what you get, but Audience 52's for $900, not even considering $3500 for the 1.3SE's. I found the Dyn's somehow mistifying, bloated bass and at the same time too much mid/high end. The Concerto was much to laid back and the Paradigm had a similiar (to my ears sound as the Dyn's, yet I liked the S20 better than the Audience 52. It seemed more balanced. Understand, I was expecting great things from the Dynaudio line, based on what I've read hear and at Audioasylum. I ended up with the B&W N805, because for me in MY ROOM, it was the best of the lot.

I have N802's in front and N804's and HTM1 for HT. I'm not sure that it matters if anyone else thinks they're mid-fi. I auditioned a ton of speakers, and don't waste any of my time trying to determine if any I didn't select have an undeserved reputation based on my not owning them or liking them. My ears, my room, my wallet, my choice. I believe all of us are entitled to that, and to our opinions until they are made in such a fashion as to denegrate another person's choice. There is no better or worse, there's only what each of us hears.

Amen Arthur.

I imagine this post will make it past the moderators since the one were I said how I really feel didnt.

I auditioned quite a few speakers and I bought what sounded best to me as well. Furthermore, B & W obviously has many products at various pricepoints, isnt it obvious.

Some of you guys are trying to use "a live performance" as a yardstick to measure or categorize the quality of sound reproduced by a speaker. I for one have never liked most "live" performances. The accoustics in most halls, amphitheatres, outdoors, clubs etc. stinks! The background noise, itself detracts from the quality. A good studio recording is difficult to reproduce live. There are very few recordings of live performances that do justice to a good band. Pink Floyds "Pulse" live in Europe is one of the few, and there are others. Also, we all have differences in musical tastes, and there are physiological differences to our ears themselves, and of course our brains are all wired differently, so this argument about speaker quality seems awfully strange. I personally love my BW N803's, but I think the N805 is much too bright, and the lower line of BW is more suited to HT, but not critical listening.
My 2 cents.
jb

Great post Joeb. I prefer to taylor my music. If you hear somthing mid-fi on a Nautilus its not the speaker, its something upstream. The Nautilus is not forgiving, its a quality speaker with different voices(models)you can use to suit your taste and room. They will expose a systems weakness. What is the case more often than not is the matching of the size of speaker to the room. We tend to over-size and over drive the room. Just my 2 cents. Peace and Good Listening, Pat.

No, you're not! Larry

I heard most of their speakers in many setups, and I just dont seem to get along with them...It grates my eardrums,,,even with CJ tubed amps..

I heard the B&W N series at a NYC dealer while visiting my daughter at grad school. I did not listen to them for more than 5 minutes before I gave up on them. Their bass was boomy, the integration with the midrange was lumpy at best, and the highs were harsh. If you like bass thumping then these are the speakers for you, not refined at all for the price. They were matched mostly with MacIntosh electronics both ss and tube. Do not understand why they are so popular with the Audiogon crowd.

FWIW, I agree with your assessment of B&W speakers.

I'm very happy with the sound I get from my Matrix 805's,
mounted on Audio points on Lovan Caliber stands, which are filled with micro bearings. The speakers are bi-wired with
Kimber 4TC/8TC to a NAD 370 integrated amp. Music sources are NAD 540i CD player and Rega P3 TT. IC's are Signal cables. Subwoofer by HSU. I just recently completed this modest set-up based mostly on recommendations from Audiogon members for under $4500 (new and used)so a big THANK YOU
to all of you out there. Compared to other, more expensive systems I've heard, I'd consider mine hi-fi, not mid-fi.