After market Motor + Belt drive for Verdier

Pani, I just noticed your thread. You may have moved on from the idea of a Teres DC motor drive pod, but I got over your "problem" by neatly drilling the --unseen-- back of my turntable base to accommodate the Teres speed reader and never looked back. I am in the middle of transferring this set-up to a recently acquired Granito (Auditorium 23 version from Germany) based Platine Verdier. I discovered today I need a ball for the bearing! I have found the Teres unit with mylar tape drive on my Townshend Rock (heavy plaster of Paris base, vertical sided Delrin platter) to be an exceptional performer. The Motor is a very important part of the chain. I discovered this when upgrading from Teres' already very good "Signature II" motor, to a pre-used (now discontinued) Teres "Reference". I was quite amazed by the lift in results with the still better spec'd motor, with precious metals in certain places etc. Music was delivered with still more commanding grip, bass impact, air and space. A good quality well driven DC motor, with the relative inelasticity of a mylar tape drive, on a suitably isolated table delivers wonderful music with great impact. In my case, with a Triplanar arm, Decca SC4E cartridge, Croft valve pre, Yamamoto A-06-3 SET, and "Loth X Troubadour" single driver horn loudspeakers. I am looking forward to final set up of my Verdier. Do you think I'll like it ? cheers.

Mosin,
reading your original question again, I do think, that there is a market for a stand alone controller/motor/belt combination. And why wouldn't it be?
One could use this package with ANY belt driven TT, right? Did I get your question correctly?
And a controller in this case shouldn't need to be overly complicated, since it will be designed to be used with a specific motor, that will be a part of the package.
it's not going to be compatible with ALL belt drive TTs, due to the diiferences in platter mass, the height of the chassis and platter, etc., but still...

Live and learn...
I understand, that Walker controller would do little, if anything for Verdier motor, which is essentially a DC motor, and Walker is intended for AC variety.
Now, is there a controller, that would improve on Verdier built-in controller, and better yet, can be run by a battery?
Mosin,
it seems, that challenges of building an "universal" motor controller will be enormous, but how about making it more specific? To build one, that's intended for DC motors only? (little selfish, isn't it?)

Mosin.
Have always tried to teach my kids to think big.
Tried to follow some of my own advice.
thanks for popping my bubble on the idea...
Cheers

Ct0517,
Unfortunately, the requirements for various motors is so vastly different that a one-size-fits-all solution is beyond the realm of possibility. Any controller with that claim would be a hoax. In the best case, it wouldn't be a very elegant solution.

Hi Mosin – something a little different maybe - outside the box. is this even possible ?

I'd like an ultra high end controller only. You're not allowed to touch the manufacturer's motors. A controller that has the balls to handle the Jean Nantais Lenco; then when I clap my hands it switches its functions to handle the Verdier requirements which are at the other end of the scale; Clap a third time and it becomes a line conditioner for the DD SP10.

I can only play one turntable at a time, and they are in different rooms so it needs to be portable too.

Remember this is a wish list item. Is this too much to ask for ? Even possible electronically? I can make the clapping part optional if it helps. Will settle for a three way switch.

I agree with Palasr' post.

Palasr
Embodiment of madness

imo - this can describe this hobby very well at times.

Thekong,
I can pull it off, but I'm not sure I want to. It would be very expensive, but very good. At least, I believe it would. I wouldn't hazard a guess as the exact price because everything I do seems to make its way into the stratosphere these days. I may build one just for kicks to see how it works outside my comfort zone. IE: other turntables besides mine. Who knows?

Palasr,
I realize that, so I believe the only way for it to happen would be if the maker included the motor, too. It would have to be outboard. Some choices would need to be limited, and that's one for certain. Otherwise, it is like you say, Herculean.

Mosin,

Yes, I think a market exists for such a product. However, for it to be truly universal (working across a variety of synchronous motors at different frequencies and possibly voltages) would require a huge effort. If one were to include adjustment of all the various parameters involved in proper motor control, the effort would be Herculean. To market such a product, and provide adequate support for it would be the embodiment of madness. In my opinion, such a product cannot by its nature be turnkey in operation, and would require an end user of sufficient technical capabilities. A nightmare waiting to happen in my opinion.

Isnt Motor controller like the Walker meant mainly for AC motors which cog ?

Hi Mosin,

I, for one, would be very interested to have a truly high-end controller for my belt drive turntables!

But then, do you have an estimation on the cost?

Maril555,

Let's take that one more step. Does a market exist for a truly high-end controller/motor/belt combination that would fit a variety of belt drive turntables?

Let me ask an original question differently:
Wouldn't it make a significant difference, to use a high quality motor controller, such as Walker Precision controller for instance, with stock Verdier motor. Would it be a better performing option, than a battery driven Verdier motor?

You tube "LYS Gyroscope" for a slightly different style.

Thekong- you are right, looks exactly like Gyroscope.
Do you know who sells it, and how much $$$?
Ct
That's the same Gyroscope in Wurz's system

This is probably a Gyrascope

http://www.lys-electronique.com/GYR33GB.html

Maril555 it looks like a custom center weight.

from Gerald Wurz's System

http://www.galibierdesign.com/systems_gerald_wurz.html

scroll to the bottom.

Ct,
Yes, it is. Do you know what that weight is?

Here is Maril555's link.

Is it the first pic Maril555 ?

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=verdier+platine+pictures&qpvt=verdier+platine+pictures&FORM=IGRE

https://www.google.com/search?q=jc+verdier+la+platine&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=6dM_UYP_OoWm4AOrn4CgAg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1272&bih=645#imgrc=XxCAI6R4gI36xM%3A%3BbKAWUB7lfVIYRM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.galibierdesign.com%252Fimages%252Fgerald_wurz_platine_verdier.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.analogforum.de%252Fwbboard%252Findex.php%253Fpage%253DThread%2526postID%253D924663%2526highlight%253D%3B640%3B427
That's a weight, I was referring to

Hello Marty_t,
I believe the record weight you are referring to may be the Sutherland Timeline Strobe.

Thanks for the clarification Marty_t

Pani
Ct, could you try reel tape ?

Pani – I tried to do this with reel tape for you but was not successful.

My Vintage Granito is one of the old ones. It did not come with a setup ball, or a switch on the back of the motor for belt versus linen options. It was designed to run only with thread or a thin line.

I did tie some tape together but even at the lowest motor speed setting, the platter is running way to fast. Thats when I looked for the switch and found none. lol. I have seen them in new manual pics. So no listening test, sorry.

I did find something out though that you and the others may find interesting.

I have mentioned that with thread the inertia and braking in place allows the platter to spin for about 30 seconds when the motor is shut off in my room. When I tried this with the reel tape even though it was not optimized and spinning way faster than 33 1/3 – the platter spun a little over half the time (18-19 seconds) when the motor was turned off.

This tells me that I really affected the original inertia / braking design that Mr. Verdier built into the platter behavior to deal with lps. Imo - with tape the platter's magnet braking and increased friction becomes dominant. No longer an equal marriage with the motor.

Cheers

Ct0517
I use a DC to DC converter to regulate the voltage. As battery voltage drops the speed changes, the DC to DC converter maintains 12 VDC within .02 volts from 15 VDC to 10 VDC. The Verdier regulation is not as accurate.

Thanks for the thread info.

Maril555
I removed the motor cover revieling the motor and circuit board, then I spliced into the wires coming out of the AC to DC converter and just before the circuit board. This enables you to still use the speed adjustment knobes.

I don't know what weight uses the led lights. My weight is 4 lbs, available fron Redpoint.

Ct, could you try reel tape ?

Hi Pani
Re: my fishing hobby comment earlier.

As someone who sport fishes in the summer I find similarities between that hobby and this Verdier. With fishing the line will vary as it is based on the type of rod/reel at one end, the line itself, the lure at the other end; the target game, water conditions and performance that you want. Thinner lines cast farther, are more transparent – to humans anyway - have more sensitivity but are not as durable.

The Verdier similarly allows us to tweak the sound by changing the line/thread between the motor and platter system. The difference in threads is significant in my room more so than any belt changes I have done with previous TT’s. I also listen in nearfield.

For me there is a similarity to interconnects, and speaker cables that we use between our components. While some audiophiles have difficulty grasping how interconnects/speaker cables can change the sound. With a TT once it is understood that its all mechanical and we are dealing with resonances / vibrations - I feel its much easier to understand.

So I have maybe ½ dozen fishing lines in the house. I tried some Trilene XT for fun again.
Ultra Low Vis Green, .30mm Diameter, 8lb test

In my system it brought the vocals a little more forward. A little more revealing (dynamic) similar to the Kevlar. At first it was nice and different, but after 3 or 4 lps I noticed a tad more noise than the silk and a smaller / condensed soundstage. I will look for some smaller diameter 4 lb test and try it. I have an area near the Verdier where I just hang past tied threads. IMO - If someone was a little OCD you can could probably identify which threads work best with which lps (as they are all engineered differently) and use different threads.

Do you guys ever worry about catching the stylus when putting the new thread on?

Cheers

Marty_t
In addition to what Maril555 said; is there a reason you chose to add a converter to the audio chain, rather than just bypass the converter in the Verdier motor itself ? Sorry if I misunderstood your post.

Here is another thread that I feel is worthwhile to try out and it is free.

http://www.thethreadexchange.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=TTE&Category_Code=kevlar-thread-information

If you call them they will send you some samples of a few sizes. A few yards of each size in packages like this.
Kevlar/Aramid

Marty t,
when using the battery- did you convert the motor to DC first? And how exactly did you do that?
I'm looking at battery power for my Verdier, as well.
Do you know by any chance, waht is the record weight, that is featured on many Verdier pictures websites- looks similar to yours- tall SS cylinder with some LED lights at the bottom?
I have Micro Seiki ST-10 weight, but it doesn't fit the Verdier spindle, which is larger diameter, than my Technics Sp-10

I use braided fishing line, non teflon, 10 pound weight with the original motor mounted close to the tt. Big improvement over silk thread, available at Wal Mart. Also I use a motorcycle battery along with a small battery charger available at Sears. I insert a 10-15 volt dc to dc converter in the line to the motor. This regulates the voltage at exactly 12 volts dc with a varience of .02 volts until the battery voltage drops to 10 volts, model PST-1212-8 available from Powerstream Lund, 801-764-9060. I believe this was about $100. I use the optional hardeded ball just barley touching with a Redpoint 4 pound weight on top of the record. The table is mounted on 3 Boston carbon blocks elevated off the springs. The improvement was like listening to a different tt.

I'll talk to Walker and I see, if I can try it

Maril555, yes you are right, it is not braided. It is quite a bit harder than the silk thread but still soft ennough to be used a string. Can you not borrow Mr.Walker's belt to try out ?

Thank you Pani,
That line is not braided, is it?
How soft is the line, comparing to the silk thread?
Another idea- Walker Audio recommend 2-4 mm silk belt for their Proscenium Black Diamond TT, they supply the belt with the TT
I'll contact Lloyd Walker, who happens to be a member of out local Audiophile club, with some questions
Best

Maril55, my fishing line says .28mm diameter (nylon). Here is the one I bought:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/220319214974?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

Ct0517, I know some people use the monofilament fishing line also and they supposedly great. I wanted to keep it simple so I tried a nylon fishing line of super strong variety and not very thick.

Guys please try this out. It costs nothing but could be an ear opener for sure.

Hi Pani – is the line you are using one of these.

http://www.basspro.com/Fishing-Line-%26-Leaders/_/S-12100005001

The fishing hobby has similarities to our audio hobby ?

Pani,
What gauge fishing line did you use. Any particular brand or type?

There is a development. I tried a nylon fishing line string instead of the silk thread and there has been a very significant improvement in pitch definition and timing and also in dynamics. Try it, it is cheap and super effective. Possibly it will tell you what I was pointing at in my first post in this thread.

Hi Pani. That is what I heard too plus less blackness. I am personally ok with a little more agility, but not at the expense of the flow (rhythm) of the music.
Cheers

Ct, I did try using a block of Ebony wood next to the TT feet, high enough just to raise it off the feet. It added a small dose agility to the sound but also took away a bit of the flow. Additionally the tonality of the wood also came through. I removed the wood.

Thanks Rugyboogie (RB)
Pani, RB, Maril others. I have been preparing my room and my listening for two OTL amps arriving within two weeks. Once I have settled into the sound will hookup to battery and will I also scrounge around for a cassette tape.

Pls try when you can the small wood blocks under the plinth. Three small blocks next to the existing feet. It takes a few seconds to insert them and remove. Interested in your impressions.
Cheers

Ct0517
Sending you schematic on how to change from AC to DC.

Thanks Salectric - that makes sense. Cheers

It sounds like your present power supply is in the same box as the controller. (It's been too long since I saw a PV for me to recall how it was laid out.) That will mean someone will have to open up the box and attach some leads that bypass the internal power supply so the battery can be connected directly to the controller/regulator circuitry. This is quite easy to do for someone who has some minimal experience in electronics.

Ct0517, the voltage regulator is already in your PV motor controller. You will simply connect the battery in place of the wall-powered supply. Picture this---the PV motor runs on DC and the motor speed is controlled by the exact DC voltage fed to the motor. The controller is simply a voltage regulator that allows the user to change the DC voltage slightly in order to adjust the motor speed and then maintain it at a constant speed.

Salectric – thanks for the info. let me understand something. I am not an electrician.

My term voltage regulator was probably the wrong word. How about voltage converter ?

The Platine motor is a DC motor with a voltage regulator.
The AC current from the wall is 120volts.
The Platine motor is doing a voltage conversion from AC to DC ?

Adding a battery is raw DC power.

What happens with the Platines voltage converter which is expecting AC current ?

Will I not fry the converter with raw DC power from a battery or does it just bypass it ?

Thanks.

Ct0517, the voltage regulator is already in your PV motor controller. You will simply connect the battery in place of the wall-powered supply. Picture this---the PV motor runs on DC and the motor speed is controlled by the exact DC voltage fed to the motor. The controller is simply a voltage regulator that allows the user to change the DC voltage slightly in order to adjust the motor speed and then maintain it at a constant speed.

The controller needs to be fed an input DC voltage to function, i.e. it needs a voltage supply somewhat higher than the regulated output voltage being fed to the motor. That "raw" DC voltage can come from a wall-powered supply that includes a small transformer to reduce the AC line voltage to a lower AC voltage and a rectifier to change the AC to DC and some capacitors to smooth out the DC voltage. That is the approach in the PV---a small wall-powered DC supply that feeds the controller. However, you can easily duplicate the function of the wall-powered supply with a battery that has about about the same raw DC voltage as the wall-powered supply. The controller circuitry is not changed when you go to a battery supply.

I don't recall the exact voltages in the PV supply and motor. I actually have a Galibier Gavia which uses a similar arrangement. In my case, the motor runs on around 5vdc so that is the approximate output voltge of the Galibier controller. I use a big battery designed for jump-starting autos, and it puts out roughly 12 to 14 volts DC which is more than enough for the controller.

It's been several years since I heard a friend's PV that was rigged up so we could switch between a battery and the stock wall-powered supply, but as I recall he used a similar battery as mine.

The current drain on the battery is infinitessimal compared to its intended use with automobiles. Consequently, the battery can go long periods of time without recharging. I typically connect mine to the charger every month or two.

Hi Guys
I have two deep cycle marine batteries in storage over the winter doing nothing. If someone can point me to the proper voltage regulator to use, I will bring them out and attempt a DIY battery setup.
Cheers

Where can I buy the Teflon washers from ?

Any hardware store. When you have your motor lifted out (careful with the existing washers so they don’t fall out) take one of the washers to any hardware store.
Ask for Nylon washers. I can’t remember the exact size. The link is an example only.
nylon washer

I just remembered something – how are you leveling your motor ?
I bet some are levelling the motor wrong. When you replace the washers you will realize why.
The motor does not sit in its mount perfectly level.
Buy one of these or something similar.
bubble level
Place it on top of the pulley when leveling. You want the pulley level – NOT - the casing of the motor.

Rugyboogie, thanks for your suggestions. I understand your view point and possibly I will do what it takes to make this guy sing the way I want. Some patience, some research and some funds are all that is required :)

Hi Ct0157, the Miyabi is a good match for the ARO. It is a proven combo actually. The ARO sounds good with Lyra and Dynavectors also. Koetsu, I dont know.

BTW, regarding the motor upgrade, Origin Live makes after market TT motors, possibly could be considered.

Where can I buy the Teflon washers from ?

Hi Pani

Thanks for clearing up the tape and capstan drive.

Agree that music on R2R master tapes is THE reference for many , I am lucky to have tapes and a couple of Studers.
As good as vinyl gets it isn't in the same league as R2R.
Had a Nakamichi 582Z, yes they were good but no match for R2R.
There is so much vinyl that we cannot get on tape therefore I/we keep tuning the Verdier.

I like what CT0517 said about cars and tuning.
Cars are build for a broad group of individuals.
Those that like cars buy better cars that have a higher potential to be tuned to an individuals taste and abilities.
Tuning the Verdier is like a high performance car.
Easy to tune and it will reveal whats in the music.

Re the power supply.
Wouldn't want to spend too much on a battery powered box, but my old ASR was battery powered and my darTZeel pre is also battery powered....... I see a pattern here.
Will explore a battery power supply and will post my thoughts. An AGM battery and a simple charger should do.

Back to the R2R.
R2R is relatively inexpensive to get started but the tapes can get costly.
Friend in Seattle invited me to a gathering that took place at his place.

Here is my post from 04 13 2009 on Mike Lavigne's system page re R2R

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1036349020&openusid&Rugyboogie&4&5&st1400

Take care and Viva le Verdier