After market Motor + Belt drive for Verdier

Hi Pani – interesting post. When I first got my La Platine a number of recommendations from "audiophiles" were to change the motor/controller. One of the beauties of this design is that you can use any motor /controller you want with it – or can you ?

It was interesting that some of the “go for it” recommendations, were from people not intimate with the table. Had never owned it. I have learned a lot since then.

I am not sure how similar the Novelle is to the La Platine in actual operation. So can I get some more info from you ?

1. Silk thread is good but it affects music in a way that makes the performance a bit sleepy.

What is your technique for putting on new thread and ensuring it has been applied properly and optimized ?

2. The stock motor is not good enough to accommodate a tighter coupling with the platter.

Most TT users use tables where the motor/controller dominates the platter system (platter/spindle/physical bearing). The design of my La Platine and probably ? Novelle is like an equal marriage. Its not about the motor/controller dominating the platter system.

A few more questions- sorry :^(

a)Have you optimized your existing motor in any way ?

b)When the motor/controller is on and the platter is spinning at 33 1/3 - WITHOUT - the tonearm/cartridge on a record and you shut the motor off – how many seconds does it spin for before coming to a complete stop?

c)Now repeat but instead of turning off the motor just cut the thread – count how many seconds before the platter comes to stop.

Finally just curious does the temperature / humidity level in the room vary during the year?

Cheers

Maril555 , Pani other Verdier owners
Regarding the Verdier suspension.
In that thread I linked Tuboo discussed placing wood blocks under the plinth.
Defeating your Verdier suspension.
I encourage you to try this as it only requires three pieces of same size wood just high enough to raise the plinth to defeat the exising pneumatic suspension.
This makes the Verdier a suspension – less turntable.
You will understand how the suspension (or no suspension) affects the sound in your (rack) setup if you try this.
Look forward to your impressions if you try it.
Cheers

Hi Pani - that is great info thanks.

Just in case you do not know, the design of the Nouvelle Verdier is such that there is a continuous friction on the platter. Verdier in his website says that to control a platter's behaviour there should be some "known" friction that is continuously applied and that is the principle behind Nouvelle. So, its platter doesnt very freely.

Exactly. I like to think of Verdier Platter Systems as having brains.

I noticed that when I turn off the motor with the thread on, it takes about 7.5 revolutions to come to a complete halt.

If you actually cut the thread with scissors I am willing to bet it stops in much less than 7.5 revolutions as it is the same friction principle as the magnetically levitated Platine but using oil instead.

So I am looking for a solution which doesnt need this mechanism.

Well I think that there is a way. But there is no free lunch ticket here. It requires some effort and patience. Not for the plug and play audiophile.

Here are some personal impressions with my Verdier.

On my Platine Granito - power off the motor with the thread attached to the pulley and the platter system continues to spin along with the idle pulley for about 30 seconds before a dead stop. Similar to yours Pani. If this is repeated the time does not change. Its pretty precise. However cut the thread instead and the platter rotates to a stop much quicker. This tells me that the platter system has braking(friction) as the Verdier manual indicates. The Verdier TT system have inertia and braking built into their design. The motor and platter system are a marriage. Cut the cord (thread) kill the marriage.

Here is a turntable test to try for any turntable that is not DD. Unfortunately when I try this test with my SP10MKII the circuit dies and can’t be reset.

While your music is playing with a difficult passage, and you are sitting in your favourite chair – have a friend shut the motor off for a ½ second, then 1 second, longer ? Have them do this in a repeated manner off and on. Is any music (stability) pitch loss detectable? How long can your friend leave the motor off, before “YOU” are able to actually “HEAR” a pitch change (slowdown). Try it with other family members. See who is the most sensitive to it.

This test IMO will tell you how much dependence and “load” the Platter system (platter/spindle/bearing) puts on your actual motor/controller.

With my Jean Nantais TT the pitch loss is immediate no question. All my previous VPI tables (HWMKIII, MKIV modified, and TNT Modified, were also immediate with the belts or thread engaged.

With the Verdier Platine I have learned – I know I have set up the thread well, when I can shut the motor off and on repeatedly and no pitch change can be heard right away. This also tells me that the platter system / motor & controller design puts very little load on the motor itself, hence the design of the Verdier motor. This is my personal thread test.

I may one day put on an after market motor. One of reasons I bought this TT was because everything is exposed for easy upgrading. A tweakers delight. In fact I kept my VPI SDS controller after I sold the VPI TNT for this very reason; in case I rigged up some AC motor in the future. So far I haven’t been tempted.

I would be very curious to know what happens with this power off test, when performed with the aftermarket motors on the Verdier. Do any Teres, Redpoint or other motor owners want to volunteer some data here for the good of all Verdier owners ?

If any of these motors are able to achieve what I, or anyone else with a little patience can do with the stock Verdier motor and some thread I would consider them. Otherwise I feel personally, how much better can a TT get, then when you can turn its motor off and on and it doesn’t miss a beat – all at the same time introducing hardly any motor noise, and no physical bearing required.

BTW – I have inserted the Teflon washers in my stock motor. I did this early on in ownership so can’t really say how big of an impact it was. But it does make the mount that the motor pulley attaches to more rigid.

I am currently using Gutermann S303 silk thread – cost $3 at Fabricland for 100 metres. If you are a high end audiophile that is too embarrassed to walk into a Fabricland store, get your wife to do it. But be careful when she asks you what color you want. I like white because as it goes through the pulley it gets colored over time and gives me some idea how long its been on there.

I hope you guys are cleaning the pulley before putting on new thread ?

Then there is the topic of “thread burn in” after you change the thread ? You may or may not believe in audio cables needing burn in. Well thread requires a burn in period -imo.

Just some food for thought.

Cheers

Hi Pani

Ct0517, I am also going to try different
thread varieties other than Silk, e.g dental floss, fishing
line etc.

We know manufacturers want to sell product. The best way to
sell product is to show that product in a nice way. For a TT
it is on top of a regular size TT rack taking up little
space. My Platine setup uses four feet in width. The music
to me becomes like a sling shot when the thread is set up in
this fashion. So please experiment not only with different
threads but distances - pulley to spindle.

From what I understand to this point of owning my Platine;
using tape drive will provide for more inertia and reduced
braking effect? Do you or anyone else disagree with this ?
This would also mean having to change out the motor which
was not designed for this purpose. Really the right person
to ask is Mr. Verdier who is very good at answering emails
about his table.

My cassette tapes are long gone Pani but if I manage to
locate one it is easy enough to try as you say. Please tell
me what u used to join the ends?

I also believe that based on owning this Verdier La Platine
TT which I feel is a kind of privilege every time I use it;
that other Verdier owners prefer to listen to music rather
than post on chat forums. Hence the lack of posts. They
are a content lot. I hope you get more opinions on this
thread as I am always eager to learn and will provide input
where I can. Cheers

I dug up some info I had read a while back on the Platine after I had first purchased it.
This is the site that gave me the information on the Teflon washers that I use.
The battery system is also discussed.

Teflon Washers

An interesting thread for Verdier owners.

Verdier Upgrade Kit


Cheers

Pani
Sorry for any confusion and this long post to clear it up.
I provided those links as internet information only. I can, based on my own experience say that the Teflon washers work for me. My advice however is to take all opinions with a grain a salt, unless you know the person well and trust them and know their room/gear. I personally thought it was very interesting on that thread that there were a couple Verdier veterans with differing views on the Verdier setup. One pushed keeping the stock motor which is very good in itself for the application if setup properly (imo - more on this in a bit); and the other just went to another motor and was done with it. Can one or both be wrong ? Well I think both are right because what they did worked for them and they are happy. Nothing else matters really. Right? Its a hobby. I would encourage you to do the experiments yourself with long and short thread, otherwise you will never know the difference yourself. The amount of tweaking this table provides is incredible.

Please understand where I am coming from as well. I will ask you - What is your personal objective in this hobby ? Whether you answer or not is up to you.

My objective. I used to chase my tail changing components. That has stopped for me for vinyl. Now when I want to know where I stand with my vinyl tweaking, I set up an LP and a 15 IPS master tape dub of which I have managed to find and buy a few - of lps I like and own. I start the record with the tape about 10-15 seconds behind the LP. I can switch between the two on the preamp instantly and hear differences in my room. So I tweak my vinyl to get as close to the tape as possible for reproduced sound in my own room – period. That is my own objective. If you were to start a post - How many use Reel to Reel as their reference source for reproduced sound? I think you will be surprised how many there are out there.

I can therefore recommend seeking out a pro “15 IPS tape deck” and have it calibrated properly. Then hunt down 2 or 3 master tapes to use as a reference. There is a learned technique in hunting tapes. It is a very revealing exercise when you compare 1) 15 IPS master tape dubs and two different TT’s using the same tonearm/cartridge on each and 2) tape and two different tonearms/same cartridge on the same table. This is where my opinion (earlier) of my Verdier with the stock motor comes from. I base everything on what I hear not measurements. The day I can no longer do this by ear – I will still listen to music - but I will pursue my other hobbies stronger.

The Verdier platform I currently use has been custom made by local Mennonite workers near the area I live in. It is a four foot slab of maple with welded steel legs that has a special shelf underneath on which hundreds of pounds of sand can be loaded onto. So it is a solid stand. As you are aware the type of rack you need will depend on whether your turntable has a suspension or not. The Verdier uses a suspension. Dealing with structure feedback can be done in a couple of ways – imo. Some choose to spend $$$$ on isolation platforms. I chose to learn how structure feedback worked and dealt with it my way. If you browse my virtual page I have provided my own findings based on my personal experiences. Look for the tag called structure feedback / spl testing. I should probably update it.
My current pulley to spindle distance is about 24 inches. The dealer I purchased the Verdier from was a veteran owner of many years and he told me he used between 20 and 25 inches. He gave me the tied threads of the various lengths he had tried that he had.

But let me say something that I really feel is important with this Verdier table based on my experience. One of the guys in that thread I linked talked about it too. We all know that wires and interconnects, etc.. affect the sound. Well the thread type and distance is at the source so its effect is multiplied and the final sound will be based on your own gear and your room. So you really need to do the experiments on your own and use what works in your own room.

If you don’t have a wide shelf – you can mount the motor on a separate stand and experiment with long thread. That will produce a different sound again than the motor being on the same stand as the TT. Remember the TT has a suspension the TT motor does not. The top magnet represents part of the platter on the Platine. Many imo - set up the thread too high. Look at dealer pictures. This is unstable. The thread is best imo set up very low on the platter and set up loose – I can flick it with my finger when a record plays. The motor set up in stock form low for leverage not on points. Have you ever tried to move a really heavy couch in your room by yourself? Is it easier pulling it from the top, middle or the bottom of it ?

The above is my current opinion so far and it may change as I live with this table.

Again sorry for the long post. Hope this clears up the confusion. Feel free to pm or ask questions on my virtual page. Have fun.
Cheers

Hi Maril555 – Looking forward to your impressions as well.

When looking at the manual I smile when I read how Mr Verdier discusses the install options for the Platine.
It probably has something to do with the French-English translation.

Install options.

1) heavy and hard wearing furniture.
2) solid wood or steel tubes mounted on wall bearing wall.
3) Sandbox made of wood filled with sand. Lay in the board the table will rest on. :^)

How simple can it get ? Three very clear options offered up for his table.

IMO – based on my experience so far the suspension deals with structure feedback really well in option 1.

I am very interested Maril in hearing how the motor unit on the wall shelf works out.

Platines can support 8 kg center weights.

Hi Pani

My reference arm is a
modded ET 2.5 air bearing tonearm

When Mr. Verdier saw a picture of the Eminent Technology ET2.5 Tonearm he did not recognize it, but he did ask me a few questions. Its not sold in France I guess. I am currently using it with a Soundsmith Retipped Ruby Cantilever Benc Micro MC3. Will be putting my XV1 back on soon. It was rebuilt for me by Axel of Germany.

Cheers

Thanks Pani – That ET2 tonearm and the Platine share 2
common dna elements. They have both passed the test of time
and both can be highly tweaked / hot-rodded. The room is the
big rock in audio. I have heard two SP10MKII’s in the same
room with different plinths but same tonearm/cartridge. Not
two Platines however. Once into different rooms its apples
and oranges.
imo - How good a table will sound is based more on who set
it up and their knowledge of the gear and room. Its a
learned process, I am still learning with both the ET2 and
Platine. Cheers

That is great info Topoxforddoc and Rugyboogie. Thanks for sharing.
Am also Interested in the battery option as a next step.
Count me in for any kind of group buy that gets considered.

Only thing is, after paying $10k for a TT, one would like to settle down and not fiddle around to get things right, that feeling some times weighs me down/

Pani –imo - If anything a more expensive turntable makes things worse as it highlights other problems in the chain, including the platform, the tonearm, cartridge and phonostage. If you tell us your tonearm, cartridge, phonostage - maybe someone familiar with them can say how those components affect the sound.

Have you inserted the teflon washers yet ?

Of the turntables I have owned and currently own the Verdier is the most like an actual musical instrument - a tool - as far as tuning it goes and how it reacts to everything. I can't do as much with my Idler and DD except play around with different platforms.

I feel it is important to determine the type of music listener/audiophile we are. I know audiophiles that touch nothing in setup, and lets others do it. Its like their car. They just put gas in like a record here. If something goes out they need to call someone. I’m just saying.....

I have question as I am curious about something. When I play 33 1/3 records my dial on the motor is just to the left of 12 O’clock on the dial. Be interested in knowing where it is for others with the stock motor.

I know its been higher in my first setups (closer to 1 or 2 pm) because I left small blue tac dots on the casing to remind me. No where close to that now. Is this an important consideration in setup ?

Does higher on the dial make the motor more stressed ?
Cause less stability ?
Is it better to get it set up so that the dial is lower ?

Any thoughts on this from the Verdier veterans ?

Curious.

I use a Naim ARO tonearm with Miyabi Red Rose (Standard) cartridge and RCM Sensor Prelude phonostage

Pani - fyi - this is just coincidence. Dover's last post on the ET2 thread. He uses a Final Audio string drive.

"The sound of the Naim Aro is quick, lucid through the mids, excellent soundstage and very musical. The downside is that I believe it has a very narrow operating window in terms of cartridge compliance and mass. The Dynavector Nova 13D sounds excellent as does a Denon 103D. The Koetsu Black sounds awful, unstable in the bottom end."

Hi Dover - if you happen to see this and can add anything?

Pani

if its the same inside like the Platine motor, the hardest thing about putting the teflon washers in is not losing the little aluminum washers that are there when you lift it out. The only wire you disconnect from what I remember is the ground. The washers cost one dollar.

Cheers

Hi Pani – is the line you are using one of these.

http://www.basspro.com/Fishing-Line-%26-Leaders/_/S-12100005001

The fishing hobby has similarities to our audio hobby ?

Where can I buy the Teflon washers from ?

Any hardware store. When you have your motor lifted out (careful with the existing washers so they don’t fall out) take one of the washers to any hardware store.
Ask for Nylon washers. I can’t remember the exact size. The link is an example only.
nylon washer

I just remembered something – how are you leveling your motor ?
I bet some are levelling the motor wrong. When you replace the washers you will realize why.
The motor does not sit in its mount perfectly level.
Buy one of these or something similar.
bubble level
Place it on top of the pulley when leveling. You want the pulley level – NOT - the casing of the motor.

Hi Guys
I have two deep cycle marine batteries in storage over the winter doing nothing. If someone can point me to the proper voltage regulator to use, I will bring them out and attempt a DIY battery setup.
Cheers

Ct0517, the voltage regulator is already in your PV motor controller. You will simply connect the battery in place of the wall-powered supply. Picture this---the PV motor runs on DC and the motor speed is controlled by the exact DC voltage fed to the motor. The controller is simply a voltage regulator that allows the user to change the DC voltage slightly in order to adjust the motor speed and then maintain it at a constant speed.

Salectric – thanks for the info. let me understand something. I am not an electrician.

My term voltage regulator was probably the wrong word. How about voltage converter ?

The Platine motor is a DC motor with a voltage regulator.
The AC current from the wall is 120volts.
The Platine motor is doing a voltage conversion from AC to DC ?

Adding a battery is raw DC power.

What happens with the Platines voltage converter which is expecting AC current ?

Will I not fry the converter with raw DC power from a battery or does it just bypass it ?

Thanks.

Thanks Salectric - that makes sense. Cheers

Thanks Rugyboogie (RB)
Pani, RB, Maril others. I have been preparing my room and my listening for two OTL amps arriving within two weeks. Once I have settled into the sound will hookup to battery and will I also scrounge around for a cassette tape.

Pls try when you can the small wood blocks under the plinth. Three small blocks next to the existing feet. It takes a few seconds to insert them and remove. Interested in your impressions.
Cheers

Hi Pani. That is what I heard too plus less blackness. I am personally ok with a little more agility, but not at the expense of the flow (rhythm) of the music.
Cheers

Marty_t
In addition to what Maril555 said; is there a reason you chose to add a converter to the audio chain, rather than just bypass the converter in the Verdier motor itself ? Sorry if I misunderstood your post.

Here is another thread that I feel is worthwhile to try out and it is free.

http://www.thethreadexchange.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=TTE&Category_Code=kevlar-thread-information

If you call them they will send you some samples of a few sizes. A few yards of each size in packages like this.
Kevlar/Aramid

Hi Pani
Re: my fishing hobby comment earlier.

As someone who sport fishes in the summer I find similarities between that hobby and this Verdier. With fishing the line will vary as it is based on the type of rod/reel at one end, the line itself, the lure at the other end; the target game, water conditions and performance that you want. Thinner lines cast farther, are more transparent – to humans anyway - have more sensitivity but are not as durable.

The Verdier similarly allows us to tweak the sound by changing the line/thread between the motor and platter system. The difference in threads is significant in my room more so than any belt changes I have done with previous TT’s. I also listen in nearfield.

For me there is a similarity to interconnects, and speaker cables that we use between our components. While some audiophiles have difficulty grasping how interconnects/speaker cables can change the sound. With a TT once it is understood that its all mechanical and we are dealing with resonances / vibrations - I feel its much easier to understand.

So I have maybe ½ dozen fishing lines in the house. I tried some Trilene XT for fun again.
Ultra Low Vis Green, .30mm Diameter, 8lb test

In my system it brought the vocals a little more forward. A little more revealing (dynamic) similar to the Kevlar. At first it was nice and different, but after 3 or 4 lps I noticed a tad more noise than the silk and a smaller / condensed soundstage. I will look for some smaller diameter 4 lb test and try it. I have an area near the Verdier where I just hang past tied threads. IMO - If someone was a little OCD you can could probably identify which threads work best with which lps (as they are all engineered differently) and use different threads.

Do you guys ever worry about catching the stylus when putting the new thread on?

Cheers

Pani
Ct, could you try reel tape ?

Pani – I tried to do this with reel tape for you but was not successful.

My Vintage Granito is one of the old ones. It did not come with a setup ball, or a switch on the back of the motor for belt versus linen options. It was designed to run only with thread or a thin line.

I did tie some tape together but even at the lowest motor speed setting, the platter is running way to fast. Thats when I looked for the switch and found none. lol. I have seen them in new manual pics. So no listening test, sorry.

I did find something out though that you and the others may find interesting.

I have mentioned that with thread the inertia and braking in place allows the platter to spin for about 30 seconds when the motor is shut off in my room. When I tried this with the reel tape even though it was not optimized and spinning way faster than 33 1/3 – the platter spun a little over half the time (18-19 seconds) when the motor was turned off.

This tells me that I really affected the original inertia / braking design that Mr. Verdier built into the platter behavior to deal with lps. Imo - with tape the platter's magnet braking and increased friction becomes dominant. No longer an equal marriage with the motor.

Cheers

Thanks for the clarification Marty_t

Here is Maril555's link.

Is it the first pic Maril555 ?

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=verdier+platine+pictures&qpvt=verdier+platine+pictures&FORM=IGRE

Maril555 it looks like a custom center weight.

from Gerald Wurz's System

http://www.galibierdesign.com/systems_gerald_wurz.html

scroll to the bottom.

Hi Mosin – something a little different maybe - outside the box. is this even possible ?

I'd like an ultra high end controller only. You're not allowed to touch the manufacturer's motors. A controller that has the balls to handle the Jean Nantais Lenco; then when I clap my hands it switches its functions to handle the Verdier requirements which are at the other end of the scale; Clap a third time and it becomes a line conditioner for the DD SP10.

I can only play one turntable at a time, and they are in different rooms so it needs to be portable too.

Remember this is a wish list item. Is this too much to ask for ? Even possible electronically? I can make the clapping part optional if it helps. Will settle for a three way switch.

I agree with Palasr' post.

Palasr
Embodiment of madness

imo - this can describe this hobby very well at times.

Mosin.
Have always tried to teach my kids to think big.
Tried to follow some of my own advice.
thanks for popping my bubble on the idea...
Cheers