Maril555, I am yet to find a platform that is totally satisfying. However I have tried quite a few which includes a solid steel rack, TAOC isolation platform with TAOC spikes, Hutter Rack and currently using a Naim Fraimlite with a MDF platform on top. This MDF platform rests on a Yamamoto PB-4-2 spike systems on the Fraimlite. This is playing well. The Yamamoto spike system is very good compared to typical spikes and spike bases sold by audiophile companies. The problem around Verdier is it doesnt like a very hard surface (granite, marble etc) nor something too soft. Some Verdier users told me that a solid wood platform made of Ebony is supposedly superb, here is an example:
http://www.chameleonracks.com/ |
Lewm, the reports that I have from people who have used Teres motors is they all prefer the belt drive motors to their rim drive verus motor. Supposedly it takes it too much in the direction of "raw" sound.
Maril555, you are right that quite a few people have considered Teres motor for Verdier but all of them use the Platine Verdier which has a lot of clearance between the platter and the plinth so it can accomodate the strobe light but mine is the Nouvelle Verdier, it doesnt have as much gap between the platter and plinth to accomodate the strobe light. So I am looking for a solution which doesnt need this mechanism.
Ct0517,
1. I just cut a silk thread long enough to cover a round around the motor and platter. The motor is very close to the plinth. I then join it with a knot that is suggested in the Verdier website. The tension of the thread is just about enough to keep the platter rotating at a constant speed, so it is not very tight.
2. I have (on the recommendation of a friend) upgraded the motor to a Maxon motor (swiss make) and a battery power. I dont know what I exactly gained because this mod took quite some time. However I do notice that this high torque maxon motor is a lot more noisy than the original Premotec motor.
3. I noticed that when I turn off the motor with the thread on, it takes about 7.5 revolutions to come to a complete halt.
Just in case you do not know, the design of the Nouvelle Verdier is such that there is a continuous friction on the platter. Verdier in his website says that to control a platter's behaviour there should be some "known" friction that is continuously applied and that is the principle behind Nouvelle. So, its platter doesnt very freely. |
Junk981, I tried contacting Galibier and Redpoint to buy their motor but I did not get any reply from them. Can you please explain the overall benefits of the Redpoint motor and if possible where I could buy it from ? |
Ct0517, I am also going to try different thread varieties other than Silk, e.g dental floss, fishing line etc.
I can imagine the Verdier playing fine even when I turn on and off the motor system rapid enough. However, in case you havent tried, the motor does react to power cords. Different power cords to the motor/controller resulted in different sonics (though not very drastic but still significant enough to bother). Which tells me that even though the platter is quite free from the motor, there is still a relationship between them and better motor results in better sound, even though the same silk thread is used.
In fact one cheap and simple way for you to experiment would be to use a simple cassette tape reel to drive the platter. Any old cassette that you might have would do the job. Just try it and tell us what you hear. |
Ct0517, you say your TT setup is 4 feet wide, that means you have a very long thread connected between platter and motor. But the callas audio site you have mentioned above clearly says that the thread should be as short as possible to avoid speed instabilities, I am confused!!
BTW, on what platform have you placed your Verdier? I believe they react to platforms a lot. I have been trying various platforms and rack systems, and all of them make the Verdier sound different. Just wanted to know which one do you use. |
ct0517, You are quite fortunate to be able to do reel to reel. Someday possibly I will also try to get one.
I agree with one of your suggestions that when the thread is driving the bottom half of the platter the sonics are better. I could not point a finger at why it so happens, but now that you have mentioned, I can see a logical reasoning behind it. Here is a setup which I like just by listening through the Video. This guy is a Verdier dealer and has optimized the Verdier at his shop. He uses a Teres motor with 0.5 inch Mylar tape drive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvVs3XaBGco
BTW, what tonearms and cartridges have you used with the Verdier ? |
Very good combination Maril555. Please do report back on what it sounds like.
I am planning on a Naim ARO with either Dynavector XV1s or Lyra Skala. |
Ct0517, it is interesting that I have not yet tried any of the three options mentioned by Mr.Verdier. When I move into my own house, possibly the first thing I will do is to place the TT on a wall mount shelf. However, when Mr.Verdier talks about solid wood heavy furniture I wonder which solid wood is preferable. There is Teak, Rosewood, Maple, Ebony, so many to choose from.
By the way, your setup is very very good. The ET tonearm is highly acclaimed and so is the Granito plinth version of Platine. Have you ever listened to a later generation Platine which has a mdf plinth ? Any impressions ? |
My initial question remains kind of unanswered, is there a replacement motor and belt drive system for Verdier that I can look at ? |
Maril555, I have tried contacting Galibier and Redpoint but never got a response from them. I dont know what the problem is. Here is another Verdier setup which uses flywheel and supposedly sounds amazing:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vopin&1213721844&openfrom&72&4&&st0 |
Thanks for the info Topoxforddoc. I wonder why pay GBP 850 for a battery PSU, isnt it okay to just hook up a high amperage deep cycle battery that can be bought from a shop for about $150 and a charger for another $50 ?
The question to answer is, is a stock Verdier motor with a silk thread drive is really good enough for a TT as good as a Verdier. It is a common observation that in the end how the platter rotates has a huge impact on the over all sound, much more than cartridges and tonearm changes. In fact it is right at the foundation of a turntable sound. Does the Verdier need/deserve a better motor drive system ? If yes then which one ? |
I think it is not just the motor but also what is used to connect the motor to the platter plays a big role. A Mylar tape or reel to reel tape goes a long way in telling what exactly the silk thread is missing on. If any of you guys happen to try that, please share your views.
Regarding battery, a friend of mine uses photovoltaic cells and claims it is the cleanest he has heard. It is cheap also. He has placed a 300 watt halogen light just above the photovoltaic cell to generate power on the fly. I wonder what is the additional benefit of using $1500 battery supply over using a simple hospital grade deep cycle batteries which costs less than $200 !!!
For the TT platform I am thinking about two options, either a acoustic revive rhb-20 solid hickory board or a Yamamoto soundcraft qb100 cherry board. |
Hi RugyBoogie,
I have tried folding the tape into the V shape, I also tried pushing the tape all the way down where there is a flat surface to just about hold the tape width. I also got another brass capstan made which has a flat groove just to accommodate the tape width. The important thing to note is the effect this tape drive has on the sound. If you read my post right at the top I have mentioned that the instruments sound "happier" and voices sound "younger" as they actually should. It is not a tone change, it is a more fundamental change, it is something to do with the pitch of the voices and instruments. If you have ever heard a master tape or even a good Nakamichi tape deck playing cassettes, there is a certain agility with which instruments springs to life, instruments have realistic weight but never sounds over weight. Something similar happens when the tape drive is connected and that is exactly what I miss with the silk thread drive. It is a fundamental thing. If you listen to music you have grown up with you will know this instantly, you will not know this on lesser known music or typically audiophile music (Diana Krall types). Verdier is a TT for life if these things are fixed, no doubt about it. Only thing is, after paying $10k for a TT, one would like to settle down and not fiddle around to get things right, that feeling some times weighs me down. |
Hi Ct0517,
I have not yet done the Teflon washer thing, I am not too handy with DIY and when I see wires running inside the motor housing I get nervous.
I use a Naim ARO tonearm with Miyabi Red Rose (Standard) cartridge and RCM Sensor Prelude phonostage. I listen mostly to Blues, Rock and Swing Jazz, so PRAT and tone are very important for me.
BTW, I forgot to answer your earlier question, you could stick the reel tapes with the use of Super Glue (instant glue). |
Hi Ct0157, the Miyabi is a good match for the ARO. It is a proven combo actually. The ARO sounds good with Lyra and Dynavectors also. Koetsu, I dont know.
BTW, regarding the motor upgrade, Origin Live makes after market TT motors, possibly could be considered.
Where can I buy the Teflon washers from ? |
Rugyboogie, thanks for your suggestions. I understand your view point and possibly I will do what it takes to make this guy sing the way I want. Some patience, some research and some funds are all that is required :) |
Isnt Motor controller like the Walker meant mainly for AC motors which cog ? |
Ct, I did try using a block of Ebony wood next to the TT feet, high enough just to raise it off the feet. It added a small dose agility to the sound but also took away a bit of the flow. Additionally the tonality of the wood also came through. I removed the wood. |
There is a development. I tried a nylon fishing line string instead of the silk thread and there has been a very significant improvement in pitch definition and timing and also in dynamics. Try it, it is cheap and super effective. Possibly it will tell you what I was pointing at in my first post in this thread. |
Maril55, my fishing line says .28mm diameter (nylon). Here is the one I bought:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/220319214974?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
Ct0517, I know some people use the monofilament fishing line also and they supposedly great. I wanted to keep it simple so I tried a nylon fishing line of super strong variety and not very thick.
Guys please try this out. It costs nothing but could be an ear opener for sure. |
Maril555, yes you are right, it is not braided. It is quite a bit harder than the silk thread but still soft ennough to be used a string. Can you not borrow Mr.Walker's belt to try out ? |
Ct, could you try reel tape ? |
