AES/EBU cable shootout

@panzrwagn since you’ve determined there is no difference, then for you there is no difference. Congrats.

But for those who have heard differences…positive differences…considerable positive differences by optimizing cables and optimizing their ethernet chain, your vast and relevant experience in IT becomes moot. They hear the differences clearly that you say don’t exist.

No one is questioning the validity of your experience. In fact, no one has asked you anything. Before commenting further, your words might carry more weight if you actually bothered to listen to two different cables and then opine. 

@ghdprentice I was Principal Architect for a Fortune 10 company for 10 years before I retired after a career in IT. System resilience and availability were my responsibility. Whatever was built and went into production was either my architecture, or had to have my review. So yeah, I have a pretty solid grip on theory and practice, and the business implications of failure when a system responsible for $100M a DAY breaks.

And yes, I still had to know how to build cables and splice fiber.

And I am still waiting for an explanation on how a Layer One passive digital component can have any impact on analog sound quality. 

I was trained by AT&T

Ah. That pretty much closes the debate. Case closed. Winner

am a certified fiber splicer 

That too. One more to seal the deal 😉

@ghdprentice I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how the last 1 or 2 meters in the digital communications chain can make a "huge difference" and the previous one or two thousand miles doesn't make any difference. Digital is not analog. I totally get how inductance, capacitance, source, line, and destination impedance interact to cause subtle differences in SQ, I have no issue with that. But digital is fundamentally different and the things you attribute to digital cables simply have no basis in digital signal transmission. Attributing a difference in what you are experiencing to a digital bitstream that is identical at the source and the destination simply defies credulity. Whatever you are experiencing is happening in the analog realm, or it is a heuristic error or a cognitive bias. No shame there, we need those to survive. But our heuristics and cognitive biases are mental shortcuts and demonstrably imperfect. Dismissing them out of hand is never a good plan.

@panzrwagn 

I have been a CIO, Senior Director of IT, and IT Director for decades. I understand the difference between theory and practice… do you?

@panzrwagn

You haven’t auditioned different high quality digital cables have you? Engineering background? It can’t possibly make a difference so it doesn’t, right? Guess what? It does, and can make a huge difference.

@rudyb Anyone who thinks their cables make better zeros and ones is unfamiliar or disingenuous about the nature of digital communications. Cables live at Layer One of the model, so copper, fiber, radio are all interchangeable. Errors in digital communications happen all the the time and are accounted for by the protocol used. For example, an Ethernet frame is preceded by a preamble and start frame delimiter (SFD), which are both part of the Ethernet packet at the physical layer. Each Ethernet frame starts with an Ethernet header, which contains destination and source MAC addresses as its first two fields. The middle section of the frame is payload data including any headers for other protocols (for example, Internet Protocol) carried in the frame. The frame ends with a frame check sequence (FCS), which is a 32-bit cyclic redundancy check used to detect any in-transit corruption of data. (Wikipedia). Dropped packets are retransmitted and reassembled in their correct order by the receiving device. Remember, this is all happening at at Gigabit speeds, and audio only requires Megabits, a thousand times slower. The other issues with digital, things like quantization errors (when a sampled signal is between the voltages recognized as a zero (<300 mv) and a one (> ~3V) have nothing to do with cables  and are all about the digital filter design in the DAC.  Noise, in the analog sense, doesn't exist in digital. Spurious voltage spikes that might be sensed as a 'one' are trapped by the error correction. Voltages below 300mV are treated as zeros, and ignored. Everything a listener interpret as 'definition' or 'space' or whatever is occuring in the DAC filters or in the analog circuits, not in the digital cable. And that's by design. Do you think your ISP is using Nordost cables between your streaming service, across the internet, through lord knows how many intermediate routers, switches, and buffers? No. I can assure you it's the same Belden  Cat 6 or fiber you get off the shelf at any electronic supply house. I was trained by AT&T on both copper and fiber, and am a certified fiber splicer (which takes a very cool $20,000 tool). Digital cables either work or they don't. Binary, zero or one. If they have ANY impact on performance, they are defective.

@lalitk Agree 100%, Ever since I bought the Shindo, I never got any urge to upgrade. The sound is something that very few systems can even think of bettering irrespective of price.

Lately I have been thinking of Aries Cerat but not to replace Shindo but as a second system.

@svenjosh - all good here.  Thanks again for your post.

@svenjosh

No offense to any other DIY or designer….IMHO, what Shindo Labs has accomplished and continues to render that other worldly sound is simply cannot be imitated or even for that matter properly understood. Once you hear an all Shindo system, there is no turning back.

@bigkidz I appreciate your input. If you read the first paragraph of my post, I clarified that this pertains to my system and my ears. But I posted so everyone can get a general idea. 
 

I don’t think I can change my resistors or capacitors in my shindo preamp or amplifier to make it sound any better. I don’t have the knowledge or skill to accomplish this. Nor do I know of anyone offering this service for Shindo. So it’s a moot point.

Again appreciate your input. 

I did not see your digital system posted on your profile page. I have done so many comparisons of cables and equipment my head still spins. I know it takes so much time to do these things. BUT I am going to say this again to repeat myself, while this is the sound you heard, it does not always equate to other systems. We have five different systems in our listening room and more equipment that most anyone has ever heard. Plus since we repair so much equipment, we get to hear so much and upgrade so much that we have a pretty good idea on what changes improve the sound. I did not go to the other threads you mention to see what DAC you were using but that also makes a difference in comparisons.

The differences you hear can be accomplished with capacitors and resistors in your equipment for 1/100th the price IMO.

Thanks for taking the time and posting your findings.

Happy Listening.

I have an Audience AU24Sx AES/EBU cable.

AES/EBU was recommended to me over I2S by an industry expert whose opinion I trust. Have yet to put it in my system.

Chose Audience because I have their AU24Sx RCA cables, which are fabulous.

jeffstrick

155 posts

04-22-2023 at 08:07pm

So at @thyname has post deleted pussy!!!!

Are you drunk? You just called me a pussy. What a childish comment. Or are you senile? I did not delete anything. You reported it, and the mods deleted a few of my post.

I cannot wrap my head around, what did I say to hurt your feelings? Please point on this doll where I touched you

And stop tagging me in your imbecile comments. You keep doing it

@nyev I am not sure if I can get a demo pair of Sablon interconnects since I am not in the market for interconnects. Nordost Odin 2 interconnects are one of the very best and I am very reluctant to replace them. 

I understand guys ... apparently there are differences in the data transmission capabilities of digital cables and depending on the quality of the rest of the gear some may hear it and some may less so. Listen and let your ears and your wallet do the talking.

Thank you @lordmelton 

@rudyb I am not recommending anyone buy an expensive cable. As I mentioned in my original post, let your ears decide and go with whatever is affordable by you.

@rudyb you are welcome and keep the curiosity going. It depends on your dac and how much buffering it can do and its internal methodology but yes, in general, the fewer steps, processes and handoffs will typically result in fewer challenges.

$5k spent today represents bleeding edge from 10 years ago. Read up about products from Innuos, Antipodes, Aurender, Grimm and Taiko on the streamer side of the equation and Audio Note, Bricasti, DCS, Holo, PS Audio and Totaldac on the dac side of the equation. No two do it the same way but each of these companies (and there are many others) are pushing the boundaries of what is possible. For instance, Audio Note isn’t doing much different today than it did 20 years ago but they don’t try to manipulate the data, they just want a well clocked spdif data signal. Six figure systems are anchored by Audio Note dacs. Try things, listen and see what you think. If you hear no differences then you are done. If you hear differences that are pleasing…then the $$$ problems begin. LOL. Best wishes.

Some people hear night and day differences between USB cables (I did when I utilized USB) and some hear night and day differences between AES/SPDIF digital cables (I hear differences, just not night and day)…it all depends on your environment and gear.

Thanks for the story and the insights on the importance of timing @ghasley

I think I best plug my USB stick directly into the DAC ... cheapest solution! :)

@rudyb 

You didn’t cause any issues. Questions, explanations, debate and answers have always been welcome at Audiogon.

I was at a dinner some years ago with some really smart people (definitely not me) where part of the room was contemplating investing in the company represented by the other part of the room.

One of the key leaders in the company in question also happened to enjoy music and while he didn’t have an elaborate system by some standards, he was a streaming only user. This was in the earliest (pre JayZ) days of Tidal. Unprovoked, when he found out I was also streaming my music, he became quite animated and we had a terrific conversation. I came away with a quasi explanation that satisfied my curiosity and also has guided my streaming decisions since. I asked the question why some streamed music sounded different than the same track from the same hard drive streamed differently. At the time I was struggling with why USB feeding a Berkeley USB to SPDIF converter sounded better than USB direct to the same dac.

The explanation he gave was well over my head but it was clear to me he had given it a great deal of thought. He explained that not only does ethernet and USB data transmission have error correction built in, it was designed to deal with the errors because there errors are a foregone conclusion. The premise is that errors are to be expected because they will ALWAYS be present so the protocols were designed to deal with the presence of errors. The reason it isnt a big deal with most data is that the absolute timing of the data and more importantly, the lack of requirement for CONTIGUOUS data isn’t necessary in most applications. If a one billion dollar electronic transfer from bank to bank begins “on-time” and concludes 1 millisecond later than expected, it isnt a big deal. In fact, its a desired outcome in that it is likely that the data was error checked. Now, imagine streaming music. It absolutely requires proper buffering. FULL STOP. You cant have the data stream begin and then “error check” on the fly. Jittery at best, drop outs at worst. SO, how is the buffering performed, how much of the data is able to be buffered into memory, what and how is the data streamed from the buffer and what/where/method is the clocking/reclocking performed? There was alot more to the conversation and todays streamers/dacs do a wonderful job with the challenge. Some do it better than others and some do it completely differently.

Anyway, fast forward to today. We are still in the process of understanding why certain materials, lengths of cable, shielding or lack thereof along with which method of transmission provides the best results and which do not. But it is audible. Ive tried to buy equipment from companies that seem to have a grasp of the importance of timing, lower jitter and clocking. The good news for us all is that most of what’s available today does a decent job of dealing with the aforementioned. Its when we get to the point where we are trying to maximize performance. The bits are bits camp just simply havent explored the topic deeply enough to understand how much there is to be discovered.

@svenjosh Thanks for your insightful cable review, we all know it's not easy to get all these expensive cables in the same place at the same time.

I'm a DSD guy myself so I use USB but I really appreciate your review, it gives a reflection of different manufactures and the sounds they are achieving. Well done.

@svenjosh Thanks for trying to help demistify the possible causes that make that digital cables can sound different. Just to clarify, it was not my intention to create turmoil here, which seemed to have happened. I am genuinely interested in how come digi-cables can sound different. There have also been other digital threads on this forum and also there the debate quickly ran out of hand.

I understand Shannon’s data capacity theorem. With PCM audio however we are way on the safe side ... even the max AES/EBU spec stream of 24bit/192kHz is still less than 10Mbps, which should be easy to handle, USB2 is specced at 480.

You heard the difference, so there must be a difference. Could it really be that with all digital cables the data reaches the other end corrupted, as your explanation suggests? (This should by the way be easy to measure.) But with some cables less so than with others? Which makes their sound can have improved texture, dimensionality, and clarity? I wonder if maybe there can also be other reasons, ones that lie elsewhere than in the digital domain?

Yet, what matters most is if one can hear the difference. To understand how it is caused merely is to satisfy ones (my) curiosity.

EDIT: I thought this article interesting, although also this only states that there are audible differences between digital cables but does not shine much light on where these stem from: https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/audiophile-insights/digital-insights/digital-cables-compared-aesebu-coaxtoslink-and-st-glass/

jeffstrick

149 posts

04-22-2023 at 12:56pm 

Move along little doggies. 

Immature reply. And I am being nice. Childish really. Someone stole your toy?

@jeffstrick : Please refrain from tagging me in your replies to me. Chill, control your anger, learn to manage it. Scroll above, you started this, attacking me for some reason, totally unprovoked 

@jeffstrick : Chill dude. Read again what I wrote above. I will copy / paste it below. I was simply asking someone else, not you, to refrain from posting in topics that are of no interest to them, and let the others freely discuss the topic at hand. Or any topic for that matter. Very politely. How is this being an “instigator”, or “special”, or “unofficial moderator”? Chill, control your anger. Learn to manage it.

And you don’t even use AES/EBU. As you said. Why even bother in this thread. Unofficial moderator much? The irony 

thyname

2,684 posts

04-22-2023 at 10:43am

@rudyb : I understand you are skeptical to trying after market cables. Obviously your choice, be happy. Please let people interested in the topic discuss amongst themselves. No reason to interfere and put them down. Please step away, participate in topics of interest to you. Please ignore topics that do not interest you. Thank you

@thyname you are just an instigator. You think your gear makes you special?

So I have a Cardas Clear AES in my cable bag as I do not use AES as I have Taiko Audio Extreme Server connected via USB to my Less Loss Echos End Reference DAC via Zavfino Silver Dart Graphene XLR to my Norma Audio Revo 140-B Connected via Transparent Audio Super speaker cables to Sonner Legato Duo speakers.

You're welcome. 

Like I said refrain, zing Zang!

@jeffstrick and @rudyb Since you wanted an explanation, I will try. I do not want this thread to go away from its intended purpose so I refrained from discussing further. 
 

When we talk about digital to digital transmission, there are several varieties of transmission. I am just going to confine to PCM transmission. We all assume that it is the same 1s and 0s without understanding or realizing that there are multiple varieties of transmission of this signal. The most straightforward PCM format is designated as NRZ-L, for non return to zero level. In this format, the level directly represents the binary value: low level = 0, high level = 1
 

But there are many varieties of PCM

NRZ-M ( non return to zero mark). 1: no change in level from last pulse. 0: level changes from last pulse.

NRZ-S (non return to zero space). This is the same as NRZ-M but with the logic levels reversed. 1: level changes from last pulse. 0: no change in level from last pulse.

Bi-Phase-L (bi-phase level). The level always changes in the middle of the pulse. 1: level changes from high to low. 0: level changes from low to high.

Bi-Phase-M. (bi-phase mark). The level always changes at the beginning of each pulse. 1: level changes in the middle of the pulse. 0: no level change in the middle of the pulse.

Bi-Phase-S (bi-phase space). This is the same as Bi-Phase-L but with the logic levels reversed. 1: no level change in middle of pulse. 0: level changes in the middle of the pulse.

DBi-Phase-M (differential bi-phase mark). The level always changes in the middle of the pulse. 1: no level change at beginning of the pulse. 0: level change at beginning of the pulse.

DBi-Phase-S (differential bi-phase space). This is the same as DBi-phase-M but with the logic levels reversed. 1: level change at beginning of the pulse. 0: no level change at the beginning of the pulse. 
 

It is possible for an error to occur somewhere in the transmission process. One way to increase the reliability of transmitted PCM signals is to add a checksum bit to each piece of data. For example, in an eight-bit byte, seven of the bits can be used for data and the last reserved for a checksum bit. In one method, the checksum bit is determined by parity (meaning an even or odd number). In even parity checksums, a 0 or 1 is added to make the overall number of ones (including the checksum) even. In odd parity, a 0 or 1 is added to make the overall number of ones odd.

This error is signal-to-noise ratio. This error is influenced by capacity (bandwidth) and timing. This is calculated by C = R Log (1 + S/N).

So there is no way any digital signal (which you describe as simple 1s and 0s) will sound the same. The cables that reduce the errors more sound better. This is a very simplistic explanation. I recommend you do more research on digital to digital transmission. You will be amazed that things like cable length can greatly determine the quality of signal. Search for hdmi and cable length needed and you will be surprised by how changing length can change what you can watch.

@jeffstrick : you should refrain from posting in threads you are not interested too. Do you have anything to offer on the topic? Let’s see: what do you think about cables? Which AES/EBU cable are you currently using, and connected to what? Thank you so much!

@thyname I am not seeing@rudyb put anyone down. He simply asked a question and the only person who attempted to answer with the slightest amount of technical information was @lalitk with the link he posted. 
 

Last I checked this is an open forum, and @rudyb did not violate any of the forum rules. Think you should refrain. 

@lalitk lol, seems we both read that same article. (EDIT: I thought it was by Nordost but that was just an add, the article was by gcaudio.) I thought it somewhat written in laymen’s terms, not very scientific. I guess there’s no point in discussing this further from the technical angle, let’s enjoy the music!

@svenjosh 

Your feedback is appreciated. Shindo dealers and few users I conversed with, always advocated the use of ‘grey’ stock cord with Shindo components. I kept Mr. T in my system after trying out many revered power conditioners. To my ears, isolated transformer based power distributors renders the most transparent and uncolored sound. Based on your experience, I am going to try a heavier gauge power cord on Mr. T :-) 

@svenjosh The effort taken to test and to post is appreciated. And an audible improvement is gained that is worth the investment, that is great.

I was just wondering if someone would be able to explain what changes happen in the digital domain during cable transmission. Of course I Googled, but even the Nordost site is very fuzzy and non scientific about it. "The better cables will bring about a lowering of the noise floor, which will translate to an increase in the clarity of a recording’s ambiance." That is an open door.

OK, not everything needs to be explained ... it is like @lalitk said "But I can hear it, and that is what matters to me."

@rudyb

Ps: If you do decide to go down that rabbit hole make sure their burnin recommendation doesn’t exceed the return policy. There’s a load of.. your not going pull out of that hole !

@rudyb : I understand you are skeptical to trying after market cables. Obviously your choice, be happy. Please let people interested in the topic discuss amongst themselves. No reason to interfere and put them down. Please step away, participate in topics of interest to you. Please ignore topics that do not interest you. Thank you

@rudyb

Let me start off by thanking you for being open and transparent about your position on cables. There are many that don’t hear difference between cables or feels the need to spend more money on cables that others able to hear a difference. As you pointed out, it is a hobby and then; there is that pursuit of audio nirvana. Back to your query, if you’ve already done A-B test so that should settles the matter for you, right? I guess you’re still curious…there are many explanations out there but I do find this article by Nordost quite informative. At the end of the day, what really matters is your own ears, your system and the expendable income.

https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/digital-audio-cables-how-can-they-make-a-difference-by-nordost-audio/

@rudyb  

Be glade your sitting on the fence, you’ve more money to spend on things that do make a difference in life. Stay clear of that everything makes a difference crowd. I prefer engineering with science to placebo with ear training. Also tired of hearing about return policies as a sales ploy. There is humour look at the used market do you think any of it is because… It didn’t make a difference ? A person waits too long or can’t return that 5 large piece now it’s 15 hundred used…has to feel good Lol 😱

@rudyb I am just interested in donating my hard earned money to cable companies and just looking for a reason. Hope this makes you happy.

@lalitk Thank you for the kind words about my system. There are multiple options now for low powered amplifiers, great time to be enjoying high end audio.

I am using the Shunyata Denali power conditioner and cord as this gave me superior sound compared to the Shindo cord. The Shunyata excels as revealing low level details without making the sound harsh.

I never tried Mr. T but hoping to do so sometime.

I think there are plenty of options now for low powered amplifiers! It is an amazing time to be enjoying high end audio.

@rudyb + 1. 

@lalitk I consider myself as an inbetweenist. I have a hard time ’believing’ stuff when no one can explain it. I understand that cables can have an impact on sound in the analog domain (although even that is already hard for me :) ). I already have a harder time with power cables. And then even harder with digital cables. I doubt if a $2k USB or FTP cable really preserves the bytes better or has less jitter than a good quality ’standard’ USB cable. The OP hears better "texture, dimensionality, and clarity" ... that makes me wonder how the digital bytes were transferred differently to create that impression?

I have done A-B tests. I friend of mine has the expensive high end power cables, a special power conditioner, heck he even has audio fuses. It is fun as a hobby, fun to just own it, admire it, read on it, listen critically. It is just that I did not hear any difference between the normal fuses or the audio fuses. Lucky me ... I can invest in other fun stuff. :)

Oh, and I don't even try to explain the reason better cables or internet filters make a difference.  But I can hear it, and that is what matters to me.  Noise I expect, and tone of the materials.  I have always liked all copper cables in my system.  In our hobby, using any thoughts above hearing makes little sense to me.  Of course that makes it subjective by nature I guess.  If science supports our observations on hearing all the better.  If it can not yet quite pinpoint the exact reason that is fine by me also.  But science can not and will not contradict what I can hear.  Kudos to those that experiment and report their findings with all the options available.  Shame on all those who don't believe it even if they have not heard it.  Science seems to be the number one reason (excuse) people are comfortable with less expensive (and less pleasing to my ears) systems.  Everyone has their price point, I get that.  But there are gains to be had on any level.

I have compared three AES cables between my Auralic Aries G2.1 streamer and my Tambaqui DAC. A basic Blue Jeans balanced cable (one of a pair), a Network Acoustics Muon AES, and my Kubala sosna elation AES.  No surprise the Blue Jeans cable was bad by comparison.  I don't know if this is even proper, using one of a Balanced pair as AES.  Anyway, the NA and KS cables were both escellent, with the KS a winner.  Just sounded more lifelike  and relaxed, but very resolving.  

Now with my Grimm mu1, I compared the NA with the KS.  both still excellent, and again I chose the KS Elation.  The rest of my cables are KS Realization, so maybe there is a synergy there.  As a value, the NA Muon cable is excellent.  

@rudyb 

Before I try to explain why the sound of audio between digital cables differs, please clarify one thing….do you consider yourself a Subjectivist, Objectivist or Inbetweenivist ? 

@rudyb Maybe better you go back to audiosciencereview.com, they can explain it better than me.