Thanks for the heads up Guido! The K-01X looks like a pretty killer player given it is based on the flagaship Grandioso. This new model with DSD USB input would have to be regarded as one of the top single box players in the high end market. The free media player download is a good idea as well.
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
4,487 responses Add your response
Matt, Here is an interesting development… Esoteric has announced/released new versions of its fabulous K-01 and K-03 players, to be called K-01X and K-03ZX respectively. Apparently they use some trickle-down technologies from the Grandioso multibox flagship players. I absolutely loved the original K-01, with slow Delay 2 filter and 4X upsampling, but I do not know how the K-01X DAC component driven by your MacMini via USB would compare to OD or even Aeris. http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/k01x/indexe.html Compatibility with high resolution source material is delivered through a free High Res audio player, downloadable from: http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/hr_audio/indexe.html Saluti, G. |
Mattnshilp, I have tried a very full range of room treatments and only found one that works very well and as a plus also is relative unobtrusive. I need to premise this by saying that both of my rooms are largely symmetrical. One is a 18' wide, 25' long, and 11.5' high and the other is tiny 10' wide, 13' long, and 8' high. In the large room I have electronic isolation, LEDE, Tubetraps, Roomlens, RPG diffusers, acoustic mirrors, Harmonic wall dots, Syn. ARTS, etc. Most improved some problems, but most also had liabilities. Then I read a post by someone here on Audiogon about Zilplexes from the Netherlands. I got a set and initially was disappointed but learned that the one of eleven pieces that went on the ceiling was crucial but I had been unable to reach given the high ceilings there. When I later used all eleven properly in my small room including the one on the ceiling, I was dumfounded as the room boundaries vanished! I returned them to the large room and managed to reach high enough to install the ceiling unit. Again I was struck by their benefit. It is hard to understand how eleven 1/2" silver hemispheres sitting on three points on acrylic wall mounts can do what they do, but do they work! I think now that you have to order them directly. |
Hey Alex, Thanks for the response. What model Totaldac did you hear in your system? There is a substantial difference as you go up the line to the Monobloc DAC's, as I'm sure your well aware. I am not presently looking for another DAC, as I really can't see how it could get allot better than what I have. But, if you want to send me a DAC to try, and prove me wrong, I'm game. I did notice in Matt's description of your DAC that there are some similarities based on my findings with the Totaldac gear here (speakers replaced with instruments was the kicker), and that peaked my interest and made me somewhat curious as to how it would perform with a more dynamically capable source. |
Paul, Alex, A customer of mine traded-in a TotalDac few months ago (now with a new happy owner in Germany) and I also auditioned the monos at the High-End in Munich this year. In other words, I am well aware of how it sounds, both in my system and at the Munich show system they used. Matt, I think I am done showing in the USA for now. The goal here is attending the High-End in Munich Germany as an exhibitor. If you ever have the chance, I am sure you will be thrilled to see it. There were many reviewers and audiophiles from the USA too who I met this year, it was fantastic! Best wishes, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
Hi all. I've been playing with Audirvana and Amarra (most recent update). I'm finding subtle differences. Not enough solid info to report findings yet. I think I will play for a while before posting anything to give both a solid opinion. I'm working on the room idea a bit more. Trying to determine if I am better putting the speakers on the short (13 foot) wall and leaving the back (behind the couch) open instead of walling it off… Also haven't really broached the idea with the wifey yet. I'm hoping she's so desperate to get me out of the office shell let me go anywhere else… The ODSE is still burning in. I have been relaxing and just enjoying the music. I have been kicking around the idea of getting a CD spinner. That's why Audiolabyrinth mentioned the Ayon. I had asked him about them because I know he had a bad experience with them. It's just thinking right now since the room will chew up a bit of funds that are much better spent on my room then a piece of kit I will rarely use. All for now. Gonna be a slow 2 weeks since my kids just got back from camp and I'm trying to do lots of family time…. Are any of you going to the NYC show in late Sept. Maybe we can all hook up there and listen to some rooms together. I know Merrill will be showing there… Steve or Alex, are you showing as well? |
AL, just to correct you regarding the 'ping' on Ayon spinners when you press play or change inputs, that 'ping' sound comes from the 6H30 tube filament and is very normal. Ayon do not use any negative feedback or compensators to erase tube noise or hum or something like as most other manufacturers are doing. Ayon are taking a pure approach. To use negative feedback in the circuit – the sound decreases a lot. |
Audiolabyrinth - Matt stated in a previous post that he hoped to have some further updates today (Wednesday) depending upon his availability and work load. In the mean time he hoped to be spending some less stressful time just listening to and enjoying his system. I'm sure he'll be back, stay tuned... |
| Post removed |
Agear: No, straight from France. New with silver faceplates. The Totaldac USB Cable I have had longer than the Totaldac Monobloc's. I used it previously with a Mac Mini and an Auralic Vega. Totaldac beat Audioquest Diamond and a Revelation Silver handily here. I recommend it highly. It is much more transparent and gives a very solid and highly focused image vs. the other 2. Gets the inner detail right. Steve: I can run KT66's here. I'll holler at you. |
The best scenario is to move to the basement, give my wife back the office, and get my OWN room. I need to start hinting to the boss a win/win solution...I suspect you would like a move to your own room. I found a concrete floor much better for medium to large speakers and the higher ceiling in the basement could also be an advantage. Running wiring should be easier as would running dedicated lines if you haven't already. You will be able to add room treatments as you see fit without affecting domestic serenity. In my case, I found it easier having a room where I did not have to weigh each decision against a component of "how will this affect the family space." |
Matt - I used to be totally opposed to any EQ in my system, but that was before Amarra. This is so transparent that it can both correct for deficiencies in your speakers as well as reduce the room resonances. Everything gets better. This is the cheapest, most significant upgrade you will ever do. It can transform your system. I use it at shows whenever possible and at home. Its a bit or work to get it installed and do the tweaking, but not too bad. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
08-18-14: Paul79 Nicely done and meticulous. Dropping the Hynes stuff on your NAS and router is a nice idea. Are you the original owner of the monos or did you buy them from Dallasjustice....former flag waiver in chief for Totaldac? I am looking into his USB cable. Vincent Brient is a meticulous and thorough engineer and it seems like some serious product. |
Nglazer - I disagree. Although Alex did overstep his bounds with a critical comment about Steve's equipment, overall I think what they provided added significantly to the discussion. Having the actual designers/engineers who build the gear is a luxury, not a hinderance. To be honest, I can't find a single comment by Steve that would be construed as negative or critical to or about Alex's equipment. As I requested before, technical commentary about your own equipment is fine, thats it. Steve and Alex both gave me in depth opinions and input off thread. Agear - I am trying to steer clear of digital manipulation to correct my rooms flaws. I agree with you Agear, the best solution is a better room, not manipulating the signal. Paul79 - I have no interest in a second system or changing my equipment. I already have a second system at the office (Musical Fidelity DAC and Integrated with Kef speakers). But your suggestion to touch base with GIK Acoustics is excellent and I have already reached out to them. I need a professional to help and they already responded to my first emails. Thank you for a great suggestion. The best scenario is to move to the basement, give my wife back the office, and get my OWN room. I need to start hinting to the boss a win/win solution... |
no comments from any manufacturer touting his/her own products. Why not? I like hearing about products. Sure, you may get a biased opinion if they are the ones that made it, but at the same time, who better to tell about said product than the maker? Also, what's wrong with making a sale or 2 here? This is beneficial to both mfr and Agon, drawing people for potential sales and success. Isn't that the name of the game? Would you make a decision to buy a DAC based solely on an ad? I do think that there should be some etiquette between the different designers here though, when they are speaking about each others works... It is not right to imply something is this or that. Another man's opinion. |
System: Totaldac Monobloc DAC's and Totaldac Server/Reclocker made for Monobloc DAC's, all DSD Ready Music network consisting of an Ipad, NAS, and Router feeding server via Ethernet cables, controlled over Wifi. Both NAS and Router powered with Paul Hynes SR5-12 Linear Supplies. Network is isolated as music network with no homerun Ethernet or internet required. Super tweaked Technics 1200MKV Turn Table with Benz Ebony HS Joseph Audio Perspective Speakers NOS Valves VRD Mono Tube Amps and NOS Valves NBS Preamp. Both latest and greatest versions. Transparent is the word. System powered with 2 dedicated circuits. One circuit using PI Audio UberBuss Conditioner to power the amps, pre, DAC's, and Server/Reclocker. Second circuit for music network (NAS/Router) powered with PI Audio MiniBuss Conditioner. Analog interconnects and speaker cables are Antipodes Reference Power cables mix: WyWires Silver Juice II Avanti Audio Allegro PI Audio Mongo TWL 7+ Digital Cables: Antipodes Kokiri AES/EBU Totaldac USB Cable/Filter Empirical Audio 4' BNC to BNC SPDIF Cable Room is right and ready, tuned with traps, diffusors, panels That bout covers it. Sounds very real and makes me want to dance every time I listen. |
08-16-14: Mattnshilp Matt, last year I was faced with a very similar situation. I had a full range floor stander that was flat to the low 20s in a small, square shaped room. It overdrove the room and was less than desirable. Some big speakers do better than others, and you can get by with a near field setup and possibly consider using bags of play sand as a cheap way to manage energy initially. Dale Pitcher turned me onto this. My next room was a multi-use family space with valued ceilings, a wall of glass on one side, stone fireplace, etc. It sounded better simply due to the fact that the speakers had room to breathe (along with the ceiling height). Thus I agree with Steve in sticking with the bigger room. I too have tried computer-based manipulation of room acoustics (ala Spatial computing from Clayton Shaw of Emerald Physics fame) and while somewhat effective, it did not turn my 35K speakers into 100k speakers. I did not chase it that far though. Another friend had professional grade room correction software, and after going through all the trouble of creating a "ruler flat" measuring room, he bailed as it lacked musicality. |
I second Steve on his recommendation for large/thick/dense area rugs.... Their beneficial effect can be further enhanced by resting them on top of one or more layers of non-skid latex sheets... Yes, I did use a latex non-skid underpad under a thick woolen rug when I had hardwood in the living room.... Rug was better than naked hardwood, and non-skid pad + rug was better than rug alone. G. |
Matt - if your speakers are large, and you are getting sufficient bass, I would stick with the big room. Treatments can be attractive, such as the graphics covered side absorbers. They are actually art. 1/4 round tube traps are really just an extension of the speakers and look like furniture too. May people that see mine just think it is more speakers or part of the speakers because they are located right next to the speakers. One thing that is important though is to eliminate as much of the floor bounce and echoes as possible. Thick, large area rugs work and overstuffed chairs in the room will help. If you are not already using the EQ features of Amarra, then this is a no-brainer. They will make $20K speakers sound and perform like $100K speakers. The EQ is really easy to use (just see my Computer Audio Info webpages). You will need an audio analyzer hardware and software. I often use my iPad with an analyzer app and a Earthworks M30 mic and preamp. The Mic is around $600 and the preamp is $400. This mic is the reference that most professionals use. There is a compensation file included that makes the response of the mic ruler-flat. See the same webpages for links to this. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
That's tough... Pretty small room for your speakers. However, I'd be tempted in trying to use the room with the freedom to do as you chose. Even if it means building a second system, or replacing your large speakers with a good full range monitor or good small 2 1/2 way type floor standing speaker, if a second system is not possible. This will allow you to pull the speakers more into the room vs. being forced to keep them close to the front wall, as well as keeping your listening position away from the back wall. This allows you to set up a more near field type scenario, if you will. When treating the room, take pointers from those that know. GIK Acoustics is really great at this. They have been given any scenario you can think of to get great results. Just MO.. |
Gonna change the subject for a moment since I've got a week'ish until my next report. I need an opinion. Is my stereo going to sound better in my current room: 19'x14.5' x 9' tray ceiling, hardwood floors with thin area rug, no acoustic treatment and no permission to ever really use treatments. Speakers on long wall. Glass doors on both side walls. Or 15'x13'x10' (beamed ceiling - open basement ceiling with exposed support beams). 1 wall is cinder block (a short wall) and 3 are Sheetrock. Thin indoor/outdoor carpet glued to floor. I can do anything I want to anywhere - essentially a dedicated listening room. Can set stereo up any way I want. Thoughts? The 19x14.5 room is much bigger. My speakers are big and I'm worried I'll overwhelm the smaller room, even with treatments. |
Alex, Sounds like my kind of DAC.. I'd like to compare your DAC to my Totaldac rig, but we can't all be as cool as Matt ;) The Totaldac is something else IME. It is extremely raw sounding, meaning whatever and everything that is on the file, is what you get. Explosive dynamics, contrasts from soft to loud are startling, and it fleshes out any performance you throw at it. This DAC also gets the depth and height right. Not only center depth, but far corner depth that goes as far as the recording does. It is as close to the best vinyl rig as I've heard digital get, and really makes the speakers vanish. Perhaps the most non digital sounding DAC? Nice write up also Matt. Tells allot about your system and tastes, and glad you found your home with the ODSE. Steve has been working on that one for a long time, and sounds like it has really blossomed into something special. I also can't help but wonder what a more dynamically capable source would bring to the outcome of these comparisons. This is a very important part of the chain. Cheers! |
Matt, thank you for taking the time evaluating the DSD-S! You are absolutely correct when you said: "it is about accuracy and presence". Though I understand that certain coloration would be favorable in some audio systems, this is something you will not find with my designs. I prefer linearity, naturalness and superb extension, while preserving the free-flowing ease of pure analog, and without a sign of digital glare. To make sure this is the case, I am recording from my reference Kuzma vinyl rig and then A-B against the digital using both DSD and PCM formats. Below is a link to a short video clip made by a visitor at the Sofia Expo 2013 using his digital camcorder. It is not a great recording and also MP3 quality, but it may give an idea about my audio system tonal balance: Video clip at Sofia Expo 2013 link Thanks again! Best wishes, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
UPDATE: I finally got some listening time in… I have been running the ODSE via usb off the computer to burn it in. I actually bought an inexpensive CD player with spdif out to burn in the DSD-S simultaneously. So both have been running non-stop since last Wed when I last posted. That's 216 hours additional. The DSD-S had about 468 last I posted. So its now at 684 hours; I would assume its nicely burnt in by now. The ODSE is just warming up with its first steps of 216 hours. I reconnected the DSD-S to the usb and used my cables as always, no change in the rest of the system. For those curious, I have not yet set up any acoustic treatments, so no change their. Consistency is key! I ran it DSD64 and DSD128. Overall, the extra hours clearly made a difference. That quirky imaging shift I mentioned before seams to be gone (that was SO weird) and the DAC really matured in many ways, like leaving a wine out to breath. I will say, definitively, that if I had to keep the DSD-S forever and never be allowed to buy another DAC, I would have no problem with that. It is that good. The overall sonic signature was the same as what I described last time. But the listening position has actually come up a bit more, and the definition of instruments in space and sonically has become more present, more lifelike. DSD64 and 128 were hard to define, and subtle. In essence, the DSD64 created a broader sense of presence and warmth and the DSD128 was like turning the sharpness up on a TV. I preferred the 64 on vocals, jazz, blues and rock music while I liked the 128 when listening to classical. Its a push and change scenario, so you can do it on the fly; which is nice. I popped back and forth to fine tune each song. Cant say more then that really. It was nice to have it, i guess. Although I spent part of each of my listening moments deciding if I liked 64 or 128 better (which distracted me from enjoying the moment). If I was forced to, I would probably leave it on DSD128 most of the time. But its easy enough to switch that its truly switch as desired; there are buttons right on the remote to go from one to the other. The DSD-S has a sense of accuracy and presence that is its sonic signature. Polar opposite of the Lampy. Tube lovers would need to run this guy through a tube pre-amp and amp to "warm" it up. Again, those who prefer the sound of the Meitner. and to a lesser extent the DirectStream should email Alex asap and set up an audition. I think the PS Audio Direct Stream is 70 of the DAC that the DSD-S is. Which is about right if you look at the price… I did listen to hi-res and DSD on the DSD-S and it was wonderful! Truly wonderful! Enough to motivate me to look into it further when music I am looking for is available in that format. But I have nothing to compare it with, and thus leave that evaluation to another. I did swap in his PC at one point, just to see since Alex asked. Again, no huge difference although the base clearly was more defined and was a tad more impactful with my more expensive Zitron PC. The noise floor also dropped noticeably with the Zitron. I have all Shunyata Zitron cables, and the affect is cumulative. So for me to truly veal his PC would take a LOT of time and effort… For what it is, its very good, and VERY flexible, which I liked a lot! I did not listen to his USB - sorry Alex. I listened exclusively this time with the 2.6 Version of Amarra, which I am very familiar with. I tried the Audirvana for Hi-Rez, and with my red book listening list very briefly. The Amarra/Audirvana differences are subtle and not dramatic enough for me to justify changing a software variable during my listening session. I then hooked the ODSE back in and gave it a listen just to see. It's young and immature, but the ODSE magic was there. I assure you all that the DSD-S is an exceptonal DAC, but in my system the ODSE shines. It was that obvious, that quickly. There is some type of synergy between every part of my system, including the room, that makes the gear and accessories I currently have work together to make a whole that is greater then its parts. I am left only to offer a heartfelt thank you to Alex for giving me the opportunity to listen to his wonderful DAC and the chance to tell you all about it. With the right system it is an unequivocal winner! So, what now? I will continue to burn in my ODSE and compare (next Wednesday if I can) the new Amarra 3.0 software and the Audirvana software with the ODSE as I am VERY curious to see if there are any differences. I await a call from John about the Romulus. And I will try to convince someone to send me or lend me a Lampy 7 and an Allnic DAC. No rush on either. In the off time, I will actually listen to music and enjoy my system. I think thats what I am supposed to do…. Steve is working on an upgrade for the ODSE to use the XMOS USB converter chip, which he says makes a big difference. Can't wait to hear that… 'fin |
Apologies all. Work has been crazy. Wed didn't really happen. At least, not the way I wanted it to. I am hoping to get some time tomorrow to eval the DSD-s and it's 128 and 64 setting. And maybe to compare it to my ODSE. Comparing the USB cable and power cords is not going to happen (sorry Alex); I just don't have the time. Nor is a comparison between Audirvana and Amarra, at least not until next week. I'll post tomorrow if I get some listening time. Sorry for the paucity of pertinent posts. |