Putting together a reference level system. My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's. For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling? USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
as a former Lampi Golden Gate owner i did listen to the new Lampizator Pacific dac at the RMAF show this past weekend. i was impressed by it's greater clarity and more transparent and refined character. it plays at a higher level than the GG and will likely synergize in more systems.
at 22k euro's it's not cheap but at an attainable level.
and it's footprint is now conventional so it will fit into more racks better, and auto switches between dsd and pcm. it is not MQA compatible; that would not stop me or even slow me down choosing a dac (even though my MSB Select II has MQA I can take it or leave it).
it's one that must be considered as a contender. and you could buy it with one set of tubes and never think about it again. it does not need particular voicing to system fit like more colored dacs might.
I have a friend who used to post in this thread who also got a Davinci mk 2 this week. He's got to finish burnin it in, but he too got the N10 server to go with it. I got him in touch with Matt and they are will no doubt share some notes etc...My friends system is Vandersteen 7's, forget the amp name and SR cabling.
I have a good feel for how Matt listens as well as how my other friend does, so for me it will be really neat to hear their differences as both front ends are identical.
i use a 26$ dac uca202 no stupid drivers needed works on every device excellent dac, musical,prat,timbre now i’m hearing all my music AGAIN i had expensive dacs that only sounded good with excellent recorded cd’s, all other were inaudible!
ps: complemented with a little tube preamp pa-10se search YouTube! 30$ audiophile
to add to the $30 dac post . Now that you bring up how your $30 dac makes all recordings sound good reminds me of a Apoggee dac i had that was also a studio recorder as well as volume control . That thing played all music i threw at it with equal frequencies being delivered . Makes me think audiophile dacs are merely additional tone controls . Juice the frequencies that make "hifi" music and recordings sound a smidge tilted for the wow factor ?
sure some dacs are better than this little thing! but i think for less than 1000-500$ you can find a excellent dac, DON’T BUY THOSE RIDICOULOUSLY PRICED DACS(with allmost Nothing Inside) , to stop and force the industry stolling you! Go Pro Audio
Mark, this thread is about state of the art. Who are you, or anyone to tell folks how to spend their money? You have no idea what is inside top DAC's and how much they cost to produce. Please top trolling this thread as it's a long running thread and we'd been able to keep things on track for hte most part. Thanks.
See here for a test of that Behringer DAC: http://nwavguy.blogspot.nl/2011/02/behringer-uca202-review.html It is in fact remarkably good, and a masive improvement on for example inbuilt laptop DACs. I do enjoy having a few for less demanding applications. It is not perfect, that is true. However, it is also not true that it should cost an arm and a leg to produce a top quality DAC. Moreover, these days standard Red Book CD resolution is no longer a challenge for any DAC chip set. See here for an example: https://www.jdslabs.com/products/39/odac-objectivedac/ Perfection has been achieved, and for a small outlay
Glad you believe to have found "perfection" in DACs at such modest prices. Apparently there are different ways to define exactly what perfection means, unless you've compared them to the best existing DACs available at any price. If you haven't done that such declarations are essentially meaningless, and really just saying nothing more than you've found some low cost DACs which meet your standards. Others may have higher goals and more resolving systems which reveal flaws that you may be willing to live with. To each their own, that's why we have free markets! Let the competition for the ultimate DAC continue here...
Perfection is easily defined in theory, and pretty easily in practice. It is the quality level above human hearing acuity. The good news is that with DACs that level is reached quite easily, and for fairly modest outlays. Quality wise, DACs are the most accurate part of the audio chain, so they deserve least attention. Next down the quality pecking order are amplifiers, and then, much further down, loudspeakers (and cartridges).
Well now that we have that on good authority it's settled, so we can end any further discussions about such sound quality differences. What a relief! ;~)
Wow. Leave the house alone for a few weeks and look what happens. Lol.
Ok. I’ve been enjoying the crap out of my earthshatteringly good Davinci 2. I cant explain how good it is other then to say that it creates visual cues within the layers of musical eddies and currents. One of my friends feels it lacks the last molecule of accuracy compared to something like the Emm product. But I feel it’s representation of accuracy is proper and not meticulous; musical and not overly analytical.
I have moved my beloved ODSX to my office system, which has turned into a kick ass system on its own: Aurender N10 Empirical Audio ODSX DAC Constellation Virgo 2 preamp Constellation Centaur stereo amp Torus RM20 BAL conditioner with dedicated 240V balanced dedicated stranded 10ga circuit Focal Sopra #2 speakers
Shhhhhhh. Wanna hear a secret???
I have a Boulder 2120 DAC incoming for audition ($65k)!!! It has a built in music server. I’m school girl giddy to compare it to my N10/Davinci 2 combo!!!
i’m not throlling! i just tried to say that i enjoy more this little dac FOR REDBOOK(and my collection is 99.9% of redbook) than any other i had (ex:audio note dac 3) which was more natural, more palpable, more realistic BUT LESS MUSICAL! SOTA? hummmm BUT NO MUSIC? Something is wrong with ultra capable dacs! i also had a 1bit native dsd cs4398 dac very good in dsd but atrocious with 44/16. Top tier dac for redbook is probably a dac that does only redbook!!!!! the uca202 seems to output what is on the cd and it has no preamp or analogue output circuit as high end dacs. so you can add your own preamp!!! 2. SOTA DAC working on usb??? bah. AND AGAIN i insist that with such SOTA devices 50% of your collection is inaudible (i hear a lot of classical music not recognized to be well recorded) and when the message goes very complex a lot of those SOTA dacs are totally UNCAPABLE. if you wanna buy a 30.000$ dac just for hear Diana Krall or only some jazz trios is up to you! 3. some high end music servers are build around a 40$ raspberry like boards! and it will be sold for 6000$. IS TIME TO WAKE UP IDIOPHILES!
Ok. Markolino. For $30- amazon prime, I’ll bite. It’s ordered. Hopefully this miracle $30- DAC will help me wake up from the 30 years of useless audiophile wandering I’ve clearly experienced. I can’t wait for my eyes to be opened to this Behrenger miracle!!
Since you've been tuning to less musical and totally "un-cap-able" with complex music passages, with your go to DACs, I'm very much looking forward to your impressions and findings. : )
The uca 220 is technically the same as the uca 202. The only difference is the colour of the case and some software. Anyone who wants to do a listening test should realize that the uca 202 has a quite low ouput of 1.2V, compared to many DACs that comply with the cd red book standard of 2.0V (or more). A low output level is not a bad idea, given the high input sensitivity of many amplifiers, but in a direct comparison it will not be as loud. Since the brain interprets louder as better, the differential should be compensated (and very precisely) for the comparison to be meaningful. I do want to repeat that I would never claim that this modest unit is as good as e.g. a Benchmark. It is, however, remarkably good for the price, much better than any laptop sound card, and excellent to upgrade a secundary system composed of legacy gear.
i second you willemj, there is no miracle! i just tried to give an example! a very good dac can cost 30$ and an excellent dac don’t need to cost 60k$ mattnshilp: maybe take a look at the Dangerous Convert 2 i’m use to hear music 8h/day so for me ultra resolving dacs don’t do it. with the uca202 i don’t listen to my gear anymore! YouTube p2T5nUsAaq0
Mark and Will. Let’s put this conversation to bed for now. I’m honoring your suggestion and giving it a try. Most would have just shut you down altogether. I don’t want a half a page discussion about a $30- DAC here. I’ll post my findings just to be respectful. But out of that same respect, let’s wait quietly until I post findings. Please and thank you.
Matt - Focal speakers!! At the LA Audio show I heard at least three exhibits using Focals. All sounded really good. I have added Focal to my list of recommended speakers, along with Vapor and TAD.
BTW, did you ever compare the Aurender N10 to the top of line Antipodes server?
These days its much harder to find a bad DAC than a good one. Very good DACs are pretty much commodity items these days. Not to say they all sound the same.
I got to listen to very highly regarded Chord Mojo portable DAC yesterday running the $3000 Focal headphones. Source was Tidal via a Bluesound streamer.
I was comparing to various more modest headphones I run off various DACs at home all of which I find quite "musical" and fairly detailed.
Needless to say it sounded very good. How much better/different? Hard to say without extended compares. So it was not a total blowout as one might expect.
Billions are listening to music off of their phone digital to analog convertors. I'm guessing most are quite happy with that performance.
Perfectly good DACs from pennies on up. Relatively speaking $30 to say, a dollar, can also be considered outrageous.
I started my DAC journey with similar outboard cards/convertors. Absolutely fine sound.
@mattnshilp Very respectful move. I'm sincerely curious.
@markolino72 You are the one who has the privilege of removing your posts. The only one I'd deem worthy of that is the one made at
10-25-2017 12:37pm , but that's still your call.
I'm retired needed another hobby to keep myself busy. I've had stereo systems for most of my life. My first receiver was a Hearthkit AR15 which I built from a kit while in the Navy stationed on an old WWII aircraft carrier during the Vietnam War. After I left the Navy I worked in IT in a Data Center for 42 years so going digital was very interesting to me. I used dBpoweramp to rip my small CD collection of 500 cd's to FLAC uncompressed on my Dell tower running Windows 10 Pro with windows spaces configured to mirror 3 internal drives. I have a Antipodes DX-1 but didn't use their drive or software to rip because I wanted to get the metadata right. Getting the metadata right, I use MP3Tag, is lots of work but I have plenty of time. Look into a free Microsoft utility called SyncToy to synch your folders (needs Netframework installed to work). I have three folders on my Dell (Ripped Music, HDtracks, Acoustic Sounds) which I synch to one folder on my Antipodes. Just setup three folder pairs in SyncToy in echo mode and run one of them when an album is added to your collection. It's great for synching your backups also.
Matt, I would love to now what albums you pick to test your components!
Here is a good test to see if your system is "truly resolving":
Take a FLAC, uncompressed FLAC, ALAC or AIFF track and convert it to .wav using DBpoweramp or XLD. Play both tracks alternately.
If you cannot hear any difference and the .wav does not sound better, you need to tune the position of your speakers or add acoustic treatments. If you still don’t hear any difference, you have an offending component or cable in your system, maybe more than one.
When I hear people say that all DACs sound very close, I have to wonder about their system.
BTW, Baja - that Antipodes is a very good server. IMO, to get the best out of it, you should be using a good USB converter or USB DAC, not S/PDIF from it.
And if THAT doesn’t work - the room acoustics and the speaker location things - or if you just want to see just how far you take this stuff, you probably need to get into vibration isolation, aftermarket fuses, wire and cable and power cord directionality, CD treatments, CD bevelers, coloring CDs, demagnetizing CDs and interconnects, silver holographic foil, crystals, Mpingo discs, and whatever else you can think of.
The only constraints are the ones you bring with you. Extracting ALL the information that’s buried there in the recordings is not at all unlike an archaeological dig of massive proportions. ⛏ Time to pull out all the stops.
"When the going gets tough....the tough get going." - Blutarsky
DACs in newer better smart phones are not bad. As is the case with many good quality products at various price points these days. Need not cost much. You might need a good outboard amp to drive many good quality headphones well. At that point an external DAC may often come into play as well. I very much like the Chord Mojo. Its just very cool looking and different in addition to sounding good and not expensive by high end audio standards.
geoffkait - you got it, however, I would start by selling the CD transport and look for a good computer audio source. Too much mucking constantly with CD's, besides you end up listening to tracks that you don't want to hear, and only 10 or 12 of them.
Then, of course, you have servers or playback software and digital cabling and Ethernet cabling and isolators and LPS for this and that, and then there is format....
I don't consider these tweaks, but they are essential to getting the best sound from a computer source.
There is one tweak that I actually use:
Plasmatron from VHAudio. Highly recommended AC regulator.
Steve, the newer Antipodes is excellent but was not the equal of the Aurender N10. I did not run it with any upsampling, which is supposedly it’s best source mechanism. But it requires a computer which defeats the purpose (to me) of a solo server. And it was highly quirky software wise compared with the “it just works” N10. The Aurender products are just SO good!!!
Steve - I have conspired several dap’s and several portable DAC’s. The Chord Hugo 2 is REALLY good for portable use!!! My iPhone with the Hugo2 and Kennerton Odin’s makes a world class portable audio experience!!!!
if interested, I did a comparison of 67 headphones on Head-Fi. It’s a good read. It also includes several portable DAC’s. 👍🏻
Hanz Zimmer - Absurdity Hanz Zimmer - Mombassa Saint Sean - Danse Macabre LadySmith - People Get Ready Yes - Leave It Stimela - Coal Train Natalie Mechant - The Peppery Man Aaron Neville - Everybody Plays the Fool Dance of the Tumblers Michael Buble - Today is Yesterday’s Tomorrow Pictures at an Exhibiiton
there are other classical, jazz and rock tracks I use. But those are the primary tracks that I know REALLY well.
Its actually a GREAT question!!
Lets all post our top 3 tracks we use when auditioning gear!!!!
As Matt knows, I'm very much into portable audio also. I have the Mojo. It's very nice for the price, but I don't like the chunky case. I"m awaiting the new Macntosh DS50 I believe it's called. I'm hoping I like it more as it also has crossfeed if you want to try it. I have the ZMF ORi's, Nobel Savants and will be getting the ref CIEM's from Empire Ears soon. The headphone balanced out on my Ayre QX5 is simply amazing and hte best headphone amp I've ever heard and I've heard the top ones on the market many times at stores and shows.
As for phones, I personally don't like the built in DAC's. One of the LG phones has a good built in, but it's still not better than even my bounce around Audioquest Dragonfly Red. The newer iPhone DAC's to me are terrible. If you have good IEM's or cans and a decent portable DAC, just listen and it should pop out at you.
Would I use a Mojo as my main DAC in my home system? Yes I would....if I was just starting out and needed a DAC until I could afford or find a better DAC. As good as DAC's are now days, I greatly miss my analog system that I recently had to sell. I think it just comes down to timing issues that digital has. I've spoken to some designers or gear other than DAC's and they all feel that it's still the timing of digital being off a bit. To my ears analog is just so relaxed when you play the same cut with digital. It will be interesting to hear how the Boulder will sound as their gear is usually pretty awesome and with a server built into it, I'm assuming that takes care of what connection, what cable and what clock to use. They know how to isolate their products and how to use the best power supplies for each part of their gear, so they can solve so many of the problems that are inherent in digital audio replication.
I'm assuming that it should best everything and for 65k plus any discounts, it should. I also feel strongly that digital has come a long way each year. I know two who own Steves' new piece (I owned and loved his old one) and the differences between the two are night and day from what I've been told. That says a ton as he's only one man designing his gear and not a team.
This thread will continue for many years to come as long as Matt decides he wants to keep up with new and latest, lol. Thanks for keeping it on track as that's not easy to do these days. I'm also thankful that it's not full of manufacturers' or dealers selling their gear. Steve and some others have been incredible in their candor and their love of music/gear and not trying to push their stuff. THANKS...
Matt - I had the Chord Qute here and it needed a better power supply and even then the bass was disappointing. Highs had amazing focus and detail however.
Is the Hugo better on bass?
BTW, ctsooner - I have designed a dual-mono, fully balanced-only class-A headamp based on the output stage of my Overdrive SX. Really excited about this product. Calling it "Eliminator". First protos hopefully early next year.
Hi Steve. I don’t use the Hugo2 on my stereo. Only headphones. It’s sufficient top to bottom using headphones. My stereo system is a different level; and I did try out the Chord DAVE. It was very good but I found its low frequencies couldn hold ultimate control the way your ODSX and ultra high end DAC’s did.
Chord fans always get upset with me as I say their bass is not as good as my Ayre, my ODSE/SE or any other 10k plus DAC I've listened to. I know many others feel the same way.
Steve, just send a demo along for my to review ;)....ha....I know we spoke about you making one. When you are ready, let me know and I'll get you hooked up with the headphone community. Great bunch of guys and from all over the world. Even more so than 2 channel audio I think.
ctsooner, I own the Chord Dave and I’m not upset with you. I’ve own the PS Audio Directstream, Bricasti M1, and Jeff Rowland Aeris DAC. I’ll take the bass, mids, highs, and musicality of the Dave every time. I’m getting the Blu 2, which to my ears brings the Dave to another level.
I've checked this thread periodically and commend @mattnshilp for putting his money behind these various DACs- it seems like this has taken on a life of its own, with lot's of good comments. I've never done digital seriously, and am now contemplating it for the first time. My question- without wading through all of the thousands of postings- is whether, for Redbook, the r2r type (whether discrete or chip based) no oversampling, no filter type, e.g. Audio Note and the like, are as good as some of the more modern DACs. I have little interest in DSD, SACD, networking, ripping, or streaming. Just playing standard CDs. TIA. bill hart
Bill - these older D/A chips are very musical, but simply not as accurate as the modern designs, as well as not supporting higher sample-rates. I offered a ladder-DAC tube output DAC myself for several years. It was very sweet sounding, never harsh, but never really live either.
I consider the digital filter in most DACs to be the #2 impediment for good digital playback (jitter is #1). These older chips solve that problem. They usually don't incorporate any digital filter or force the chip to automatically select a filter. They make it possible to have only an analog filter and no digital filter.
The problem is that even if you only care about 44.1kHz playback, the HF transient response of these older chips is just not like the live performance. The attack and decay never seem to be like the live event.
The is why in the Overdrive DAC (one of Matts picks), a newer technology chip was selected that supports up to 192kHz, but allows one to manually select the digital filter. I recommend to select only the 192 digital filter (there are three) on the Overdrive, even when playing 44.1kHz tracks. This is how I use it. This approximates what these older chips do at the same time delivering accurate transient response.
A number of companies have gone to extremes over the last 10 years to develop their own digital filtering techniques, in order to eliminate or reduce pre and post ringing on impulse response of their DACs. This was an effort to improve the deficiencies in digital filtering in off-the-shelf D/A chips. So far, I have not been impressed by the sound of these filters. I still believe minimal or no digital filtering is best.
There are a couple of modern D/A designs that use the old R2R ladder technology, but also support higher sample-rates. The TotalDAC and the DaVinci II are such designs. I have read great reviews on both, so they evidently have decent transient response.
Great response Steve. I know that we've chatted about this a few times. Yes, I"m the one who has your server. We spoke for a long time about headphones, amps etc... Since then, I've gotten pretty heavily into portable audio and headphones as has Matt. I'm sure your amp will clobber most. I have already told a few of the top reviewers I know about it.
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