@mattnshilp
It’s a bit quite around here. I wonder what the Doc’s got up his sleeve for us?
It’s a bit quite around here. I wonder what the Doc’s got up his sleeve for us?
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
4,487 responses Add your response
DHT do not run hot in the GG or Pac as they only operate at 5% or rated capacity. the rectifiers do run hot though. They can all be hot swapped. I will as Fred, the US distrib when he will have a demo unit available. Only a few Pac have so far been released in the wild...like about 10. I hear they are now ready to ramp up and do about 5 a week. AL who heard one at home which he borrowed from a pal is trying to figure out which kidney to sell. LoL |
Recently purchased the Denafrips Pontus dac at Axpona . I'm still getting to know this piece, however what this dac does with redbook cd's is truly worth the price of admission. After making a couple of changes in digital cables, the music is so there and lifelike it will make you giggle and smile at what you're hearing. Sound stage is impressive and micro detail will give you what everyone wants..hearing new music in old music. I'm hoping to write a review of the Pontus and what it sounds like in my room when I get the time. But for redbook, this one is hard to beat. |
De acuedo Matt. Yggy se da muy alta rendimeinto, pero no es de altissima calidad en mi juicio. Por ejemplo, a mi me gusta mas qualquiera Lampi Dac. Ademas, mi amigo viene de escuchar (durante una semana como demo) el nuevo Pacific, y me a dicho que es una verdadera bomba! Totalmente mejor que mi "Gloden Gate". Que tristeza para mi. |
Hola a todos, utilizo como DAC en mi sistema el Schiit Yggdrasil http://www.schiit.com/products/yggdrasil Una máquina estupenda de conversión digital analógica diseñada exclusivamente para ello. Tanto a través de su conexión por USB como balanceado digital, con un sonido muy completo y envolvente. Te da una escena sonora estupenda y la música que tengo almacenada en el Mac mini y periféricos funciona de maravilla. Lo mismo con la música 16/44 utilizando como transporte mi lector de CD Electrocompaniet EMC1UP. Una combinación muy buena si lo que buscas es un DAC que sea solo DAC y saque lo mejor de tu colección de CD y de música almacenada. |
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Sometimes it can work out, but a good preamp, usually tubes will make the playing field much more fair for DAC shootouts. Yes a tube pre will equalise the sound qualities in a shootout, with it's own colourations. DACs just don't have the low output impedance that a good preamp will have. In regards to the Total or the Bricasti output stages this is definitely not true. They are every bit as good as any preamps output stage. I'll pick on the Bricasti seeing it's jut a smidgen behind the Total in regards to drive and output impedance. The Total and Bricasti's discrete solid state output stages will shame "nearly" all tube preamps in output impedance and current drive ability, and many solid state pre's as well, in regards to be able to drive into amps with resistive and or capacitive hard loads The Bricasti's output stage tested driving into a punishing 600ohm load https://www.stereophile.com/images/212BM1fig12.jpg This is tube pre PS Audio BHK Signature that has a very good rep (for a tube) to be able into hard loads, into the same 600ohm load as the Bricasti. https://www.stereophile.com/images/617ps.PSABHKfig6.jpg Here is an Ayre solid state with 31ohms output impedance with good cred for driving low load impedance's. With the same 600ohm load https://www.stereophile.com/images/611AK5fig5.jpg Cheers George |
I agree. Sometimes it can work out, but a good preamp, usually tubes will make the playing field much more fair for DAC shootouts. DACs just don't have the low output impedance that a good preamp will have. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
You know very well as I do that the output impedance on both are very similar with discrete transistor direct coupled outputs at 40ohms Bricasti and 32ohms Total, and clipping or drive is not the issue for either direct into 100kohm of the Gryphone, nor into the 10kohms of the Lightspeed Attenuator. No, I don't know this. It is really easy to get entirely different AC impedance by having different power delivery to the output stage, even if everything else is identical, which I'm certain it is not. Even 40 versus 32 is a big difference. These are static measurements, not dynamic. The input DC resistance of the amps is not very relevant either. The issue is the di/dt current required to achieve dynamics from the amps. Most amps have 50K-100K input resistance. This is simply the resistor soldered at the inputs, not the same as the input impedance of the active devices. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Matt, how are the teddy bears doing? LMAO...I loved that one! I Actually had the Dave in twice. I have heard it numerous times in many systems. I choice teh Ayre QX5 over Dave as to me, it has better bass quantity and quality. That's just me in my system. As we have discussed so often, digital is much more prone to sounding different in every system. As much as there is a house sound etc.... the type of electrical you feed it along with the connections you use will GREATLY affect it. YMMV. |
DDriveman - thank you. I don’t blame anyone for not searching through the previous 84 pages since it’s a daunting task, but I owned and sold the DAVE, auditioned the Allnic D5000, and have had the Zanden DAC and phono stage in my room (owned and sold the Zanden phono stage). In total disclosure, the Blu2 was not yet released so I did NOT hear the DAVE “fully loaded”. But the DAVE, on its own, although very good, did not overshadow several other dacs in its price range and just under it. It’s form factor and function were seriously cool beans, but in the end it couldn’t compete with other dacs I was listening to at the time. And although I desperately avoid being jaded, I REALLY wanted to like the DAVE. As a headphone DAC/amp combo it is, however, VERY hard to beat! I don’t know if the Blu2 will compensate for the faults I found in the DAVE. I do have a friend who is a dealer and he has a DAVE on demo but not a Blu2. I will see if he can bring in a Blu2 and have him bring both over. Allnic was disapponting at best. I have a full review posted in the distant pages back. Zanden was what you would expect. Sweet, engaging, luscious and felt like being engulfed by a giant teddy bear while listening. It was musical and engaging but lacked fine detail and accuracy, typical Zanden sound. I’m talking micro here, not macro. In the right system, Zanden can last and provide a lifetime of happy ownership. I see it joining a Zanden preamp and amps (or maybe Octave if you wanted to increase clarity and resolution a notch), and a pair of Acapella horn speakers in a medium to large room. Jazz and blues and chamber music and choir..... oh mee oh my!!!! 👍🏻👍🏻 |
Here is what I recommend: 1) Chord DAVE DAC 2) Chord Blu2 CD transport and Upsampler. The combination of the Chord DAVE and BLU2 as an upsampler is very good and you can get both new and still be within your 20K budget. I currently have 2 other tube DACS: Zanden 5000Mk IV and Allnic D5000. Both are very good also but the Chord DAVE/BLU2 combo is better. The BLU2 takes the DAVE to another higher level. You need both of them linked together to get the maximize the sound quality. have an all tube audio system. The only devices that are non-tube in my current system is the Chord DAVE/BLU2. FWIW. |
@georgehifi If you bother to have read it, we also went direct. And there was a preamp (that I didn’t want to mention as Mick Maloney is an acquaintance of mine but seeing you want to know) Oh the irony. 😂 YOU may want to GO BACK TO SCHOOL and LEARN HOW TO READ. In the same statement you quoted: Did you really only use a passive preamp OR DIRECT TO DAC for this DAC comparison? The reviewer who’s system we used is Edgar Kramer of Audio Esoterica, Australian HiFI, 6 moons, and is also the principal of Soundstage Australia, and if you bother to do some work you’ll find he also has a Supratek DHT Reference which was used but taken out as it didn’t give what the other configurations gave, as it was too coloured. It also seems like you are confused on the gear you listened to. Based on a quick search, it looks like there is a Gryphon Antillion Evo, and a Gryphon Antillion Signature. The link that you provided shows it is the Gryphon Antillion Evo ........direct into 100kohm of the Gryphone, nor into the 10kohms of the Lightspeed Attenuator. Where did you see a 100 KOhm spec, or learn how to spell Gryphon? The spec sheet only shows a 20 KOhm input impedance. http://www.gryphon-audio.dk/Content/Downloads/Technical_Specifications.pdf . |
Thanks Matt. As you know I have always felt the same way. You know how concerned I am to potentially run The Memory Player direct into the new Vandersteen mono blocks IF I decide to get them as I can't afford those AND a preamp (would then sell my Ayre AX5/20 integrated, so I wouldn't have a stand alone pre). Again, I don't mind properly done integrated products as they are matched perfectly and usually by the same engineer. |
Steve and George (nice to discuss something of audiophile significance besides R2R with you finally), the gain/impedance matching between preamp and amps is a HUGE point and can’t be over stated. Personally, I have tried running many of the DAC’s I have auditioned direct to my amp and I have tried using Steve’s Final Drive. I have ALWAYS preferred a preamp in between the DAC and amp.... always. In fact, I have pretty much always preferred using a same company preamp and amp for the same broad reason; the preamp is specifically designed to output the correct gain and impedance to best match the amps input stage. The only situations where I see bypassing the preamp as possibly the same or better would be the using a DAC and amp of the same brand where the DAC is also specifically designed to output directly to the amps. Jeff Rowland’s Aeris DAC is a good example of this. Of course, this is a personal opinion and many mix preamps and amps of different brands with good success, but I chose to always keep amps and preamp of same manufacturer to get the most out of a system. I have had several Bricasti dacs in my room and have always preferred my preamp in between. I also had an MSB DAC IV and it also sounded best with my preamp in the signal path. I look forward to auditioning the TotalDAC system and will absolutely try it with and without. |
You know very well as I do that the output impedance on both are very similar with discrete transistor direct coupled outputs at 40ohms Bricasti and 32ohms Total, and clipping or drive is not the issue for either direct into 100kohm of the Gryphone, nor into the 10kohms of the Lightspeed Attenuator. Cheers George |
Absolutely no advantage whatsoever, helps if you know about input sensitivity that the Gryphone Antillion only needs 1v in to give it’s full power out. The Bricasti has more than enough to clip the Gryphone if it needs to. This is insufficient to predict overall performance. This will only predict output level and maybe clipping level. What it needed is the output impedance and the drive required of the amps to deliver dynamic response. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Absolutely no advantage whatsoever, helps if you know about input sensitivity that the Gryphone Antillion only needs 1v in to give it’s full power out. The Bricasti has more than enough to clip the Gryphone if it needs to. Sensitivity is insufficient to predict performance. This will only predict output level and maybe clipping level. What is needed is the output impedance and drive required to deliver dynamics from the amplifier. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
audioengr2,905 posts04-21-2018 1:02pm
So, which one was used?? The devil is in the details here. I recently asked a reviewer that did a DAC shootout what interface was used to make the comparison and he refused to tell me. What kind of a reviewer does that? Did you really only use a passive preamp or direct to DAC for this DAC comparison? Another detail that could easily skew the results. These types of shootouts must be carefully thought-out so a fair comparison can be made. Steve N. Empirical Audio What reviewer does that? One who has no clue as to what a reviewer does or what a legit review is. That's pretty sad if you ask me (which you didn't). Teh problem I have with audio reviews now days is lack of transparency by many/most. There are just too many folks who get gear for free or at material's cost and then sell it without paying taxes to supplement their income. I also used to love folks like Tom Gillet who also used his last name backwards to do The Cheapskate Audiophile, Sam Tellig. I get pen names and all (was a journalism major in college), but he was never on the up and up based on what many dealers and manufacturer's would say back in teh day. That's why I stopped reading Stereophile on a regular basis. JMHO |
Did you really only use a passive preamp or direct to DAC for this DAC comparison? If you bother to have read it, we also went direct. And there was a preamp (that I didn’t want to mention as Mick Maloney is an acquaintance of mine but seeing you want to know) The reviewer who’s system we used is Edgar Kramer of Audio Esoterica, Australian HiFI, 6 moons, and is also the principal of Soundstage Australia, and if you bother to do some work you’ll find he also has a Supratek DHT Reference which was used but taken out as it didn’t give what the other configurations gave, as it was too coloured. https://www.soundstageaustralia.com/index.php/reviews/84-wilson-audio-specialties-alexia-series-2-lo... This would give the Total DAC a big advantage, as its output is 6.4 Vrms max, compared to the Briscasti’s 2 Vrms. Absolutely no advantage whatsoever, helps if you know about input sensitivity that the Gryphone Antillion only needs 1v in to give it’s full power out. The Bricasti has more than enough to clip the Gryphone if it needs to. Cheers George |
So, which one was used?? The devil is in the details here. I recently asked a reviewer that did a DAC shootout what interface was used to make the comparison and he refused to tell me. What kind of a reviewer does that? Did you really only use a passive preamp or direct to DAC for this DAC comparison? Another detail that could easily skew the results. These types of shootouts must be carefully thought-out so a fair comparison can be made. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Sound quality in an audio system is of course a "system" thing involving every single part. I feel that both the source and the speakers are the dominating factors. In the case of my two different DAC technologies, I compared them head-to-head in the same system at the same time. The D/S won hands-down. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
headphonedreams - I am also in the side that thinks that all common architectures (R2R, DS, FPGA) can work when implemented with care.... Hi everyone. I’m pretty good at using google. That said, may I ask the opinions of the folks on this thread for a very brief (sentence or two) explanation as to the advantages and/or disadvantages of "FPGA" in comparison to the other two architectures. Thank you. |
I just replaced what could best be described as a “vintage” Musical Fidelity A3.5 CD player with an Oppo 85 after reading many, many positive opinions on Oppo in general. I had previously perceived Oppo as “ mass market “ stuff, and while this is a universal disc player with outstanding reviews on its blue ray capabilities, it was lauded for its cd audio. And deservedly so. The Oppo made virtually all of my redbook discs remarkably better in every respect. The only discs it didn’t improve sonically were those that were badly recorded - which no player can manage. Unfair though my comparison may be - the MF A3.5 is significantly older - the Oppo absolutely was an immediate improvement. And for $500 used. One of the best dollar/value additions to my stuff in recent times. Woohoo. Modwright KWI-200 Integrated Marantz TT-15 Turntable Sony HapZ1ES Maggie 1.7i and Vandersteen 3A Signature (Still trying to decide between these - tough!) |
@georgehifi Funny you mentioned these two, we had exactly this shoot out for a whole day on a reviewers system at his place in the beautiful Blue Mtns on his Wilson Alexia MkII, Gryphon Antillion Evo Signature my passive pre. We also went direct, with the same results.We had 5 techs, 3 non techs at our meeting and were all insistent on perfect level matching. Did you really only use a passive preamp or direct to DAC for this DAC comparison? This would give the Total DAC a big advantage, as its output is 6.4 Vrms max, compared to the Briscasti's 2 Vrms. |
Next to the Total Dac, this was another jaw dropping moment that really impressed when converting pcm Redbook either 16/44 or 24/96. http://www.aquahifi.com/la_scala.html Cheers George |
welcome back buddy. Glad that it was a great trip. Elizebeth, I too have heard that marantz. I think most equate it with their mass market stuff. Most have not heard their reference gear which is very nice sounding. I like warm and not 'hot' gear. I don't put your DAC into either category. I think it's a fairly neutral sound with a bit of dynamics. If anything, the soundstage was a bit more intimate than say the Empirical ODSE/SE that I owned. Steve's gear threw huge stages. The Marantz seemed to me to be a nice piece. |
Sorry for the delay. I just came home from a week long trip to London and Paris. Great family time. Loved it all. Looking forward to getting some solid listening time in this week though. Yes, I missed my stereo.... I went to one store in London but it turned out to be a tech store more then Audio. Apparently, Diavalet have crossed over to mainstream mass market audio.... I won’t have much to report for a day or three, so let’s run off topic for a bit and hear about trips you guys have recently taken to audio related locations. Shows, intentional trips to audition gear, concerts, anything that involves music, gear and traveling. Should be a fun diversion. |
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Matt said...”This is NOT a thread on R2R vs PCM technolog. Nor is it a thread on why R2R is the ONLY design that should be used, George.” George. This is the OP’s thread..not yours. Show some respect and move on from your tiresome lambasting of everything that does not fall within your narrow minded nomenclature of all things R2R. Start your own thread and have at it there... |
Then it's about "best for PCM RedBook" as you stated. And of course the talk will come down to technology. George, respectfully, knock it off. Everyone reading this thread is familiar with your R2R dogma. I have personally had great results with D/S, but if I designed an R2R from scratch, it might be equally good. Steve, your ethernet DAC only accepts PCM. How do you recommend converting DSD? |
I am also in the side that thinks that all common architectures (R2R, DS, FPGA) can work when implemented with care. Speaking of FPGA, have you read or listened to PS Audio and how they implemented the DirectStream Dac? I think the technical descriptions are interesting and much more detailed than most other companies. I haven't heard the dac but of anyone has any compared it to other dacs mentioned in this thread I would like to hear what you think. |
This is NOT a thread on R2R vs PCM technolog. " Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD" Sorry but you being the OP headed this. That's why it went down that path again after you gave such a good report of the R2R Multibit "Mojo Mystique V3" with comments like this. SO, if you are looking for a single ended DAC you’d be a fool to not listen to the sub $6K single ended Mystique V3!Then it's about "best for PCM RedBook" as you stated. And of course the talk will come down to technology. I hope you do some more Matt from the list below, as it will broaden your horizons on what constitutes an great pcm RedBook dac. As I posted there are many discrete R2R ones now being made (below) as R2R chip converters are unobtainable except for the military missile guidance one that Shiit uses, hopefully they do come back as manufacturing techniques improve to laser trim all those microscopic resistors to a minuscule % .0000001% or less without the massive costs of doing it. There is a large market for them to come back to, if Delta Sigma can't in the future get the sound from PCM that these R2R's can, but I do admit the 6bit hybrid DS's are getting closer, maybe they just need to go the full wack to 24bit with no DS who knows. Just keep DS for DSD/SACD conversion. Up to $3k: Border Patrol, Monarchy, Denafrips, Audio-gd, MHDT, Holo, Soeskris, Metrum, Schiit
Cheers George |
Wow guys, gone for a week and right back to PCM vs R2R again. George must be here, lol. This is NOT a thread on R2R vs PCM technolog. Nor is it a thread on why R2R is the ONLY design that should be used, George. I don’t believe in absolutes. As I have said, I’ve heard a LOT of dacs that sound great. I have some great stuff coming. Stay tuned. Im home this evening. 👍🏻 |
Yep, Different groups of listeners, ears,systems etc. Contrasting opinions are nothing new within the niche of High End audio. I don’t question either group of listener’s conclusions. All of us just report honestly what we hear. Both DACs have happy and loyal owners. Certainly experienced audiophiles and music lovers comprised both groups. Charles |
We had 5 techs, 3 non techs at our meeting and were all insistent on perfect level matching. All levels were matched overhaul not by spl by ear or meter but by the voltage down to the mV fed into the speakers at differing sine waves with a tech cd to get the levels absolutely identical to the mV And the Total Dac 7 with larger optional off board power supply, was by far the better, with PCM Redbook replay. Cheers George |
George, The system I heard these 2 DACs directly compared consisted of the Absolare Passion Signature preamplifier Krell FPB 600 mono blocks Rockport Altair speakers Velodyne subwoofers x 2. Obviously we both heard the two DACs in very fine audio systems What’s interesting is that the sonic attributes you heard that favored the TotalDac over the Bricasti M1 SE is the opposite of our findings. The Bricasti was noticeably more dynamic,energetic and alive sounding. In direct comparison the TotalDac was smooth but polite and subdued (relatively speaking). The Bricasti had the better musical flow and pace which was very engaging. I have to say it was also at the same time more organic/natural. Overall clearly the better sounding DAC. Both were use via ethernet and attention was paid to matching levels. In absolute terms the TotalDac was quite good but the Bricasti was the superior sounding DAC head to head. Charles |