A Story about a Defective Signature Platinum

@pindac   So glad that you, at least, are interested.  I'll keep you posted - been looking to see what it would take to modify an old pressure cooker.

@terry9 I recall when the individual who first presented on Forums, Panzerholz as a materials with attractive properties, the response from certain types was contempt prior to investigation, the product was New, pretty much unknown/unused in Audio and was shot down. 10-12 Years on the discussion on it as a material is mainstream. It is a topic on all forums across the Globe and Manufacturers of Audio Devices in a selection of Countries are using it as Panzerholz, or using it with a 'in house' name given for the same material.

Evidence is common to show Organic Origin Materials combined with Synthetics produce materials that are ideal to function in a particular role where mechanical /structural properties are required.

https://www.racefans.net/2022/12/13/super-formula-confirms-introduction-of-new-bio-composite-chassis-for-2023/#:~:text=Dubbed%20the%20'SF23'%2C%20the,as%20hemp%2Dderived%20materials%2C%E2%80%9D

My investigations show you are not the only one investigating the properties of Pampas Grass.

The Link shows it is being identified for its suitability to be a sustainable constituent in the make up of a composite. I think that idea should ring a bell.

Another White Paper I discovered has been impregnating the Stem in a solution diluted using Alcohol as 50% of the mixture. There is additionally a description of a usage of a Vacuum Chamber and a 12 Hour Dry Time of 80 Celsius. 

When I was looking into a Cactus Needle Armature, I discovered a White Paper, that I had a friend investigate. The outcome being they were convinced that the Properties of the Cactus Needle would be satisfactory to function as a Cantilever.

I have a donor Cart' on standby to receive a Cactus Needle and the technicians own design for a form of a Styli.

If I were to attempt to experience a alternative Cantilever from a Brand, where the option is Cactus Needle or Bamboo, The cost will be between £3K - £7K. I am much more settled with the quote I have received for the work to be undertaken.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338440494_Characterization_of_Natural_Fibers_from_Cortaderia_Selloana_Grass_Pampas_as_Reinforcement_Material_for_the_Production_of_the_Composites

I will take a wild punt and suggest a Composite with a Organic Origin such as Pampas Grass, which is extremely easy to grow (energy efficient) in multiple environments. Will become a constituent in a product, where Lives are dependent on the products  reliability.

It will not be a surprise to learn it is being used in the mainstream industries before 2030. Going Carbon Neutral is demanding this type of research and producing alternatives to full synthetics products. 

Let the naysayers, who are with little foresight than the seeing of the Spectacles on their noses, spue out their protests to such ventures of ingenuity. 

@terry9 

I would taper it like your other wands drilling out the inside so the is almost a constant wall thickness making it a little thicker at the back. I would put a Schroeder like head shell arrangement at the front. What are you doing at the back end of the arm, bearings and such?

@pindac  Ah yes, Panzerholz. It's the best commercially available material that I know of. See, for example, the Reed website. Researchers in Europe, (Netherlands? Germany?) like GLARE, an acronym for Glass Laminate Aluminum Reinforced Epoxy, which is also interesting. But I suspected that biology might have solved the problem of stiffness without resonance a few million yearrs ago - and then I noticed pampas grass in the front yard. Hmmn ...

Thanks for the links.

@mijostyn Unfortunately, there's not much room to shape the wand. Evolution shaped these stalks and constructed them in a way which is pretty much optimal for the task. Boring out the middle would eliminate the mechanical integrity, as would shaving down one end. The only alternative is to put a spacer inside the prism at one end, but this eliminates the strength and rigidity of the closely coupled triple.

I don't like to compromise performance, so I don't use head shells. Besides that, my Mayajima Zero mono lacks the ultimate refinement of the Koetsu, so I don't use it much, and now that I have the Epoch, won't be using the Koetsu so much.

The bearing end of the tonearm is a plate of Panzerholz, which is attached to the air bushing plate (2024 alloy aluminum) with 4 machine screws. The bushing plate is attached to the air bushing (20mm NewWay) with a copious amount of elastomeric glue (M1). Counterweight is silver on a #10 steel machine screw.

@pindac  Looked up the links, thank you. The researchers used pampas grass fibres, interestingly. These seem to have been harvested from the stalks, much denser than what I used, The stalks are about 15% the density of a fibre bundle, and more rigid than balsa of the same density - I was going to try balsa next, after the pampas grass experiment failed - except that it didn't. That's evolution for you.

So I use pampas grass in the same way that nature intended: as a longitudinal whole - the same reason that premium Japanese walking sticks are made from biologicals which have been forced to grow in a certain shape - say a walking stick. Or so I have read.

Wonder why no-one is using elastomerics inside a pampas grass matrix? Well, we are.

The Reed Statement that the P'holz is a near perfect material for a Tonearm Wand is one that I have not seen before.

Interesting that the Company refer to it as Tankwood, as this is the name that Kaiser Speakers have adopted for it in their literature. I have not seen it referred to as this name in other places. (Panzer in German is Armoured in English).

I made it known before I encouraged a Wood Wand user to try out a P'holz Wand and they have not looked back.

I also have been demo'd a Tonearm where P'holz was being used to produce the parts usually that have a metal to perform a function. The P'holz version was noticeably improved and notable for the noise that seemingly had disappeared.

Metal on Metal interfaces do have a audible signature when used at the critical places in a Analogue Source, maybe even the metal body of a Cart' coupled to a Metal Headshell is also a contribution. I have seen AT and others have models with a embedded damping/dissipation material on a earlier model Headshell to transform energies and later models have the Diamond Hard Coating (Technihard) to transform energies.

To Americans, the word “Panzer” is synonymous with “tank”, owing to WW2 history, regardless of the true meaning in German. My guess is that the word panzerholz may be copyrighted such that some other manufacturer of a similar product is driven to call it tankwood. Using this material in a tonearm wand necessarily results in a rather high effective mass. So it’s not the best for high compliance cartridges, if you worry about that issue.

No Worries over here in the UK where many folk in the East of England are very German in their origins genetically.

Great Big Foreheads are an Anglo Saxon trait. 

I though the fibers were resin impregnated. The Schroder system does not have a head shell. It uses a mounting plate for the cartridge which makes it very easy to align. There are no additional connections. You have to pull the clips every time you change cartridges. There are not any connections at the bottom of the arm either. The outer sheath and shield are stripped back to expose the tonearm wires, a stunt you could do with the Universal if you so desired. 

@pindac 

Technically, the only near perfect tonearm wand does not exist, it can only be imagined.  I suppose Kuzma's Sapphire is as close as you can get in terms of stiffness and resonance. 

I found visiting the Reed Website a useful experience. 

The assessments offered by Reed on a variety of wood types used for wands are backed up with a data.of measurements. 

Their statement made about P'holz,certainly does not contain the term, 'suppose'.

I see no reason to question their findings. 

At present P'holz does not lend itself to being a Wand on the Tonearm I have adopted and am mainly using. 

P'holz does lend itself for usage on a Tonearm I am familiar with using, and the demo's received to date, far surpass the Metal on Metal interfaces of a earlier guise.

@mijostyn  : "  in terms of stiffness and resonance.  " the EPA 100MK2 is even better.

R.

@mijostyn Interesting cartridge connection scheme. Very similar to my own solution, except that instead of the cartridge on a plate, the cartridge is on its own wand, so that the cartridge can be matched to the appropriate wand. Also, VTA, VTF, Azimuth are all incorporated into the wand, so there’s no setup required - other than doing and undoing 4 machine screws and the cartridge clips.

Re sapphire - rigidity I’ll give you, speed of sound I’ll give you, resonance doesn’t seem at all likely. The sapphire tubes I have ring beautifully - i.e. resonate.

I was going to try sapphire until the pampas grass turned out so well.

@rauliruegas 

For the substances in equal caliber that might be true but given the Sapphires much larger diameter and tapered form I highly doubt it for the tonearms. Don't worry I'm not about to buy a Sapphire arm. I have my own thing going and you are never going to believe it! 

@terry9 

Schroder solves that problem supplying cartridge mounting plates of three different masses. Generally tonearms like the Reeds that supply a range of wands have an additional connection at the wand's base, so in reality they are no different than SME style removable head shells. 

@mijostyn  I wasn't talking about the Reed system, I was talking about mine. Wood or wood-like composite all the way. Similar speeds of sound in each material reduce reflections.

So what is your own thing?

@terry9 

I can not discuss fine details until our patents are established. My son in law is a robotics engineer. His company makes the robots used in chip manufacture. His robots have to move in nanometer increments. We have designed what will be the the finest tonearm you can buy. It is a tangential tracker and the only mechanical connection between the arm and the greater world is the signal wire.

Sounds like a modern digitized Rabco with better everything.

My impression (as a patent holder) is that patents ain't what they used to be. But I understand your position - I'm ambivalent about giving up the best of my own developments. In my case, it's probably just nostalgia.

@lewm 

The only relationships to the Rabco are it is an electrically driven tangential tracker.

The current design is the first iteration and in some areas the materials are not established, like what we are going to use for the tonearm wand. Functionally we want it to run by remote control. It will go to the beginning of the record and cue it. At the end of the record it will pick itself up and return to the resting position. The drive is unaffected by level. We will use scaled down versions of the same electronics used to control the robots. Two problems remain. It is going to be a heavy arm, the question is how heavy. It might be heavy beyond all practicality which I doubt. It will certainly be too heavy for many turntables. The last question is how much. We have to get a rough idea of materials cost. Some of the arm is very new technology and the method of making some parts has yet to be decided. The arm might have to be priced beyond practicality. How many people are going to by a $400,000 tonearm? I would like to keep it under $50,000, the lower the better. 

Initially we plan to build 10 units. If they are well received we will look into building larger batches. 

The tonearm wand is pivoted in both horizontal and vertical planes. The vertical plane uses a needle bearing very similar to the 4 Points. The horizontal bearing is a very fine ball bearing race without a lubricant. It is limited to two degrees in either direction. The drive will be trained to lead the arm. It will remain perfectly tangential plus/minus a few seconds. There is no need to have more horizontal freedom. It will be neutral balance and the vertical bearing will hopefully be at or near record level. We have not decided on how to trim azimuth yet. We are hoping to be able to control VTA by remote control. We may have to knock off a lot of things to keep the price down. 

@terry9 

Patents are not much assurance that you won't be copied but it will be very hard to reverse engineer the arm. There are certain proprietary issues very difficult to figure out. This is very new tech. My son in law was showing me a CAD picture of his companies new device and my brain immediately flipped to TONEARM!

All of my great ideas did not get very far. One is actually marketed today. My partner, the one with the money got tired of paying patent attorneys. 10 year later up pops my design. This one is not going to be a huge money maker but it might lead to other audio related devices and electronics and give my son in law an opportunity to start his own company.   

@terry9  My ongoing investigation of a modern approach to Organic Material that has properties suitable as a Structure and able to be used for Engineering purposes has lead me to Mycelium (Fungi Roots), this advancing Tech', is worthwhile familiarising oneself with, in some cases, it is already an unknown of household product, used as structural parts in furniture.

Being somebody who likes Bullet Proof Board, the Mycelium Bricks being produced are also claimed to be Bullet Proof. 

Time to learn the Damping/Dissipation properties? 

@pindac Thank you for the the suggestion. I had never heard of mycelium used in this way. I found an article which you may find interesting:

The discussions I have had about organic fibres has always shown that Chemical is required to produce the impregnating resin.

My time spent researching the use of Mycelium has now shown that Soy Based Resins are used to produce composite sandwich panels.

There might just be a Organic Structural Material on the horizon that will take over the role of Carbon Fibre, Kevlar and Metals.

Mijostyn, Have you considered Balsa wood for the arm wand?  I am not sure why you say your tonearm is prone to a high effective mass.  Can you explain or is the reason for it is part of the patented idea? Certainly there are a variety of materials that per se would lend to a low or manageable effective mass.

@lewm 

The Balsa wood would have to be impregnated to make it stiff enough. The arm wand is actually only 6" long. It is not prone to a high effective mass at all. Given it's short length it will take more mass to get the EM up where most MC cartridges like. The patented idea has to do with the linear, computer controlled motor. The arm itself is not anything out of the ordinary. It is a short gimbal arm without any offset and no anti skating. 

You own several expensive cartridges. It’s off topic, but would you care to comment on their relative merits or demerits?

The topic of this post is doing well and as far as I can tell there has been no change in its performance since the repair. It (signature platinum) is a very easy cartridge to live with. It's high output and low impedance give and excellent signal to noise ration. It is smooth and silky maybe lacking the last word in detail. The MC Diamond is a tank of a cartridge. It is big and heavy. With the phono stage I have it does not have the greatest signal to noise ratio as it is very low output and has a higher impedance of 6 ohms. When played loud I can hear the hiss between cuts. It is extremely detailed and dynamic. The Lyra Atlas Lambda SL is not quite as noisy as the MC Diamond, is just as detailed but perhaps not quite as dynamic. It has the best resolution of the third dimension. I spread out the wear between the cartridges but if I had to choose one it would be the Lyra. 

The Seta L Plus does not have a MM section, but the DEQX which I should have shortly has some kind of special MM section designed with or by Dynavector. I will get back into high output cartridges and maybe try a transformer for fun. 

Try your Goldring. I am finding the MP500 Nagaoka to be excellent (on my Triplanar) but perhaps not the equal of the Ortofon MC2000. Problem there is I’m getting very faint hiss with the BMC MCCI at its +11db setting. Can hear it only between cuts on an LP, but I’m bugged. Will go back to +7db to see if that is quieter.

Your having the same problem I have with the MC Diamond. Unfortunately, it will not be quieter because you just push the volume up to get to the equivalent loudness. You are not changing the signal to noise ratio. It will seem quieter only because there will be less noise at the same position of the volume control. If you ever get a Lyra do not opt for the SL version. The higher output versions will work perfect with your phono stage as will the MSLs. 

I plan on getting another Voice. I gave my old one to a friend for his 70th Bday. Great Cartridge. I might try the MP500 and a Goldring. I do not have a Goldring now. Switching back and forth between phono stages will be a PITA. I might get a second turntable. One that can except a 12" arm. I can get a good deal on a CS Port but it is not my kind of table. I will have to get an isolation platform for it but the pair would be less expensive than a Dohmann Helix 1. I'm not sure if the Helix 2 accepts a 12" arm. There is also the SME 20/12 and 30/12. Basis, like Sota, totally avoids 12" arms. 

i am aware of an end grain balsa / aerospace grade CF arm tube on a Triplaner…. I use Panzerholtz for other purposes…. Best to all… interesting twist to the original thread….

@tomic601 

I am not sure what an end grain balsa CF arm tube is. CF is carbon fiber bundles impregnated with a resin. I have never seen a balsa wood tonearm wand end or side grain. 

Exactly, i’ve heard it ( stunning ) before i knew enough about how it was constructed to ask more questions. Getting CF and a resin set to bond to end grain is a tricky business…not covered by a patent for obvious reasons. The designer of the arm wand has extensive audio related experience with the materials and process. My mention of it was perhaps to reinforce other’s interest in balsa.

@tomic601 

Resin impregnated woods are common arm wands. Schroder and Reed use them.

So, what you are saying is the balsa is being used as a former for the carbon fiber. Getting the resin into the balsa is just a matter of heating it up under pressure. 

Au contraire, mon amis. I assume the faint hiss is coming from the voltage gain stage that adds 11db to the voltage output of the current driven stage. At +7db, there may be fewer gain devices in the signal path and hence a better S/N ratio. Also I’ll be turning up the volume on my linestage which I know to be quiet. This all remains to be heard.

Sure…. if you say so. 
i spent a fair bit of my career running big composite fabrication / assy and test sites in Aerospace…. ah so simple….

carry on

wishing you well in tge endeavor 

@tomic601 

Well then, you should know. You might enlighten us instead of being cryptic. 

Much is done under the umbrella of non disclosure in these industries. 

Forums are not the place to release the secrets concealed from working in this type of industry. 

Dear @lewm  : " Try your Goldring. I am finding the MP500 Nagaoka to be excellent (on my Triplanar) but perhaps not the equal of the Ortofon MC2000. "

Your advise to mijos could be not function with him in the same way that in your system.

Key for MM/MI cartridges is the MM phono stage design ( you even can do way  better ). 

Normally phono stages designers do not care about MM/MI  cartridges because normally MC is the " rule " , so for MM/MI cartridges they use the MC stage with lower gain stage and that's all.

To really shine MM/MI cartridges needs a dedicated phono stage diferent from the MC stage.

Around 15 years ago I re-discover the MM/MI cartridges thank's that I owned a few Audio Technica and AKG models and thank's that was with these cartridges that we tested our Essential 3150 that came with a dedicated MM stage totally separated of the MC stage, in reality the 3150 has 2 separated and different phono stages. The needs of LOMC cartridges are diferent of the MM/MI needs,

In those times I shared my re-discover starting the today very long thread MM/MI dedicated and through  the time several of Agoners learned and shared about their first hand experiences with. As a fact all the vintage cartridge you own was because that thread you knew about through that thread and your curiosity made that you pull the triger.

The unit that mijos is waiting is a full integrated " digital processor " that as an option you can buy with phono stage too. Btw, Nagaoka beats Goldring that's a good cartridge but any of your vintage cartridges outperforms that Goldring.

When we finished the Essential 3160 all those vintage cartridges gone/performs at a new and better level not more of the same but with som critical characteristics that comes in the LOMC cartridges that we are accustom to by " hundred " of years listening to it.

Obviously that through the time all go changing and changing and normally all those change in the audio world is for the " better ". As we audiophiles all audio items designers improve their new models is critical main part  and the name of the game.

That's why right now instead to stay listening only MC cartridges I have mounted two vintage Audio Technica cartridges  running through my new Essential 3180 and guess what: I can't say that I'm listening a MM cartridges even coming from the early 80's and these kind of experiences is due to the MM 3180 phono stage.

Mijos mentioned SUT for HO MC and well the overall listened quality sound levels " coming " from that SUT mainly depends of the MM phono stage design.

Btw, mijos I know what you could answer but the MC Diamond is not very low output ( 0.2mv ) and that " noise " you mentioned not should be there. Current design has more disadvantages that advantages if any over the voltage design stages and we have to remember that cartridge is a voltage item.

R.

@pindac 

Nice cover. Such non disclosure agreements pertain to patentable issues during the life of the patent. Anyone dealing with items significant for military reasons will have security clearance. I suppose tomic has one of those also. I happen to be an expert woodturner. We resin impregnate wood all the time with colored resins to make interesting turnings. We put the wood (I like driftwood) in a large pressure pot with heated resin, apply pressure and let it sit for 48 hours. When you release it from the pot you have a resin cylinder that you can mount on the lath and turn to any shape you desire. The driftwood usually decides. We do not have security clearance and are not aerospace engineers. I do have one non disclosure agreement which I can not discuss.

I do have one non disclosure agreement which I can not discuss.

I bet that's related to hiding how much you spend on audiophilia from your family...

Hilarious….. I think i was pretty clear with the mention of balsa was to spur interest..

I was entrusted with steering that organization precisely because i didn’t know…. 

I made it a cornerstone of my management philosophy to attempt the practice of Humble Inquiry ( thank you Dr Schein )….RIP

IF the process of machining end grain balsa into a cylindrical core and achieving a primary bond with a CFRP set was classified AND i was privy to that  i most certainly wouldn’t have comment. Of course, there are advanced aerospace development organizations…. doing… commercial market work… for example 787 

carry on…. a driftwood tonearm playing the drifters on a slightly off center record sounds enticing….

@dogberry  : Audiophiles always need " some " kind of money but we can hide it under the " umbrella ".

R.

@dogberry 

Mums the word. 

@rauliruegas 

Look under the pile of sawdust.

@tomic601 

How old is the 787 now?

Making a cylinder out of balsa is simple. Orient it any way you like. You resin impregnate it, stick the blank on the lathe, drill an axial hole with a drill mounted in the tail stock and finally turn it round. On a good day I bet I could get the wall thickness down to 1/2 mm. As a form for a carbon fiber tube it is much too time consuming. It is much easier to use a Styrofoam cylinder. But CF has become commonplace and rather boring. A fancy arm needs something with more pizzaz like Rhenium Diboride.

The Drifters? You are giving away your age. I stop at Paul Revere and the Raiders classical not included.

Rhenium Diboride, isn't she that new Yugoslavian singer?

The most successful Resin Impregnation will be carried out on a Wand that is within a Vacuum.

The Treated Wand will be submerged as the Vacuum cavity is filled with the Resin, the air cavities created in the Wood, will have the resin ingress into them. 

Similar could be done as I have seen with Old Oilite Bushes, where the Bush is submerged in clean new oil and the Vacuum is then created, it is possible to see the air being drawn out of the Oilite Pores, which is then assumed to be impregnated with the New Oil.  

Whether they are "Under the Boardwalk" or "Up on the Roof", Drifters rule.  Paul Revere and the Raiders?  Pleeeze!

@mijostyn Well ya flunked Engineering… You are thinking the Balsa serves two functions, not 3.   A skill you might find VERY helpful in your endeavor is forward and backward pass analysis on FUNCTIONAL attributes of an Enginerred good.  Of course if you do a tolerance stack analysis, you might decise the angstrom level TT drive isn’t necessary… ( it’s still cool ). 

Hint ; the orientation of the Balsa actually is important…..

Precision of word use matters… a careful read of my prior note says primary bond… @pindac has a significant grip on that…. 

the 787 is ancient, like me. The -10 variant…not so much…. i’m sure it incorporates new tech in composites as deemed appropriate….
 

If an 18 year old neighbor can listen to Zeppelin, i can partake of the Drifters…. get off my lawn…

You could be #2 with Lab grown Sapphire….

@tomic601 

I love the Drifters along with Dion and the Belmonts, The imperials, The Capris, Shep and the Limelight's, The Tokens, The Earls, The Five Discs, Harvey and the Moonglows, Randy and the Rainbows, The Flamingos, The Mystics, Boss-Tones, The Platters , Lee Andrew and the Hearts, Frankie Lymon and the Teenagers, etc.

I did not come into them until later in life. 

@lewm A\

And what the heck did you listen to when you were 10 years old, Lawrence Welk? Tell me you liked the bubbles!

@tomic601 

I forgot to mention, you are surely FOS.

@mijostyn 

I have to admit I had to look up FOS on urban dictionary- you made my day LOL

90 days warranty for item that is over $6k?? 

Scams in business are now considered as normal.