A Story about a Defective Signature Platinum

@dogberry  : Audiophiles always need " some " kind of money but we can hide it under the " umbrella ".

R.

Dear @lewm  : " Try your Goldring. I am finding the MP500 Nagaoka to be excellent (on my Triplanar) but perhaps not the equal of the Ortofon MC2000. "

Your advise to mijos could be not function with him in the same way that in your system.

Key for MM/MI cartridges is the MM phono stage design ( you even can do way  better ). 

Normally phono stages designers do not care about MM/MI  cartridges because normally MC is the " rule " , so for MM/MI cartridges they use the MC stage with lower gain stage and that's all.

To really shine MM/MI cartridges needs a dedicated phono stage diferent from the MC stage.

Around 15 years ago I re-discover the MM/MI cartridges thank's that I owned a few Audio Technica and AKG models and thank's that was with these cartridges that we tested our Essential 3150 that came with a dedicated MM stage totally separated of the MC stage, in reality the 3150 has 2 separated and different phono stages. The needs of LOMC cartridges are diferent of the MM/MI needs,

In those times I shared my re-discover starting the today very long thread MM/MI dedicated and through  the time several of Agoners learned and shared about their first hand experiences with. As a fact all the vintage cartridge you own was because that thread you knew about through that thread and your curiosity made that you pull the triger.

The unit that mijos is waiting is a full integrated " digital processor " that as an option you can buy with phono stage too. Btw, Nagaoka beats Goldring that's a good cartridge but any of your vintage cartridges outperforms that Goldring.

When we finished the Essential 3160 all those vintage cartridges gone/performs at a new and better level not more of the same but with som critical characteristics that comes in the LOMC cartridges that we are accustom to by " hundred " of years listening to it.

Obviously that through the time all go changing and changing and normally all those change in the audio world is for the " better ". As we audiophiles all audio items designers improve their new models is critical main part  and the name of the game.

That's why right now instead to stay listening only MC cartridges I have mounted two vintage Audio Technica cartridges  running through my new Essential 3180 and guess what: I can't say that I'm listening a MM cartridges even coming from the early 80's and these kind of experiences is due to the MM 3180 phono stage.

Mijos mentioned SUT for HO MC and well the overall listened quality sound levels " coming " from that SUT mainly depends of the MM phono stage design.

Btw, mijos I know what you could answer but the MC Diamond is not very low output ( 0.2mv ) and that " noise " you mentioned not should be there. Current design has more disadvantages that advantages if any over the voltage design stages and we have to remember that cartridge is a voltage item.

R.

@mijostyn  : "  in terms of stiffness and resonance.  " the EPA 100MK2 is even better.

R.

Dear @mulveling : The Atlas Lambda SL is way better and with no concern about.

R.

@mijostyn  : Thank's again and if you look in this page of the thread I already posted those pictures.

R.

Dear @mijostyn : Thank’s. Normally I prefer boron over ruby.

Now somewhere it’s a mistake did it for you or MSL. You posted here that your Signature Platinum measured both channels 1.8 ohms however in its site MSL spec says: 1.4 ohm so that difference is nottttt 5% but over 28% higher what you measured.

R.

Btw, LOMC Sumiko LMX in those linked pictures is the original top of the line Coral MC-8 that means Sumiko was a Coral OEM sample.

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : Following on your Talisman S  I can confirm thatwas made by Excel.

Characteristics similares to my Excel ES 10 Direct Sound, this is the cartridge denomination . This was for Japan domestic market only. This one is the cartridge that we ( Etsuro Gold owner. ) listenined in that session at my place where as a whole the ES 10 beated the Etsuro that today it's made by Excel too but a way different design than in the old times. Originally the ES 10 came with aluminum cantilever and seems to me that near the time the model dissapeared cantilever was berylium as my sample and with Vital PH ( I don't know what it means. ) stylus shape. As with some of my vintage LOMC cartridges I was lucky to got it and the diagram sheet that comes  with shows an impressive flat FR and 32db of separation with both channel output exactly at the same level: 0.21mv. This is a picture of the ES 10 where you can see its 3mm sapphire solid cartridge top plate that it's just unique:

Raúl (canva.com)

Yes, it's almost new  and along the MM Audio Technica AT ML160 LC/OCC ( when you listen for the first time this AT you can't know it's a MM design ) are the cartridges that I'm enjoying in this times.

R.

Dear @mijostyn :

Cartridge pictures Raúl (canva.com)

that blue cartridge that you refered in your emaiI to me is the Fulton RSD, only a few samples of this model exist out there and I was lucky enough to have it: a real collector cartridge.

In its time exist 3-4 Fulton models and the RSD was the top of the line and in the Audio magazine anual library was the higher price cartridge in that list: 1,200.00 even superior to the Koetsu of those time or any other cartridge out of Japan.

I have to tell that all Fulton models came with spherical stylus shape. I owned/own the RSD and the second step in the Fulton catalog and both performs really good but both came with different cartridge motor and cantilevers.

Obviously I don’t ask Joseph ( @needlestein ) for the original spherical stylus shape and was him according the cartridge cantilever who choosed that Ogura line contact that as you told me was similar to your Signature Platinum that in the MSL site says: semi-line contact stylus tip exactly as the top of the line Air Tight.

In this post I link here Joseph Long confirmed about that: semi-line contact where MSL choosed Ogura diamonds and that’s why is similar and perhaps not so polished as yours but I don’t really care because my Fulton RSD is something to listen it even with the spherical stylus tip:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/retip-lyra-delos-and-upgrade/post?postid=2553690#2553690

Btw, I own too that Sumiko Talisman cartridge that Joseph refered in the post due that its smallest vdh stylus tip he found out, yes a great vintage LOMC cartridge. As I told you in my email there is really " nothing new " on MC cartridges, the operational cartridge motor of 40 yeras ago still function with the top today cartridges and I say this with all my respect to cartridge designers As JC that have the high merit to making changes " here and there " achieved and achive levels of performance not only as your MSL but your Lambda SL too and your MC Diamond.

Btw, 

The first picture is the Audio Technica AT36E that’s similar to the AT37 that came with ruby cantilever ( this 37 was only one step down the AT MC 1000 diamond cantilever on those times: this 1000 had in Japan a price tag of 200K Yens. ) and I sold it because the 36 performs better and now with line contact stylus shape I just can’t imagine what is its today qality performance.

The second picture is the LMX that was in the market thank’s to Sumiko and the thrid picture is the Fulton RSD that I already posted its " history " and that today comes with a similar stylus shape than the mijostyn MSL Signature Platinum ( Ogura line contact. ).

R.

R.

@mijostyn  : I understan that you still ownd the Talisman S and even that I owned in those times I don't care if the cantilever was solid/rod or tube one and I read that the Talisman S cantilever is a tube ruby and the B model a tube boron when the A model came with a composite cantilever of hardened aluminum with magnesium.

Due that you have the rigth set up and skills to " see " it could you confirm that?

Thank's in advance,

R.

Dear @mijostyn : Thank's for it . @rsf507 according Joseph the separation is over 40db both channels same as the other cartridges. So rigth now I don't worry about maybe in 2-3 weeks the 10 cartridges will arrive to me and let you know. Btw, Joseph said that not only has an impressive separtaion but that sounds fabolous.

Now, I posted about this vintage Ortofon because of that measured over 40db that I know yes is truly impressive when today top cartridges can't be near it but even the Audio Technica measured 36db.

Btw, I'm not telling that all MC3000 MK2 measures the same in that spec. Btw, the cartridge body hole is near the back side, I can't remember if at the left or rigth side.

 Why till today I still own several LOMC cartridges and even retipping it?, easy answer because believe it or not performs just superb by any today quality standards. That's why.

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : Thank you for Imgur I will reload the pictures. please tell me something and make me a favor: due that you already have the fixed cartridges pictures I emailed to you can you by imgur post here?  I'm sending the Ortofon MC 3000 MK2 too.

Thank's in advance.

Btw, The Talisman design is a yokeless and only one pole piece that Sumiko named Direct Field Coil. Come to my memory other vintage LOMC cartridges that were designed yokeless: Yamaha and Audio Technica, there are others but I don't remember in this moment.

R.

Dear @dover  : Certainly the S was the top of the line around Talisman LOMC. I owned all 3 models: A, B and S. Where B and S ( boron and saphire cantilever, the A is an alloy cantilever. ).

The A came with  the smallest elliptical dimension you can imagine and the B and S came with line contact stylus shape.

By its specifications seems to me ( I'm not sure ) that those Talisman were made by Excel due that the great ES-10 has almost the same specs than the S model with no saphire cantilever but Excel made for them similar to the ES-10 with diamond and saphire cantilevers.

I sold the S model because I prefered not only the B but even the A . @mijostyn these with no colorations. Nice cartridges. I think that your appreciation on that " body junction " is not totally correct: Excel makes no mistakes of that caliber but obviously I can be wrong. The fact is that I don't detected any coloration other that Talisman signature.

Btw, as HO the Talisman Alchemist is very good too.

Dover I think that you are diminishing a little the quality performance levels of Talisman because in many ways can be a challenge for cartridges even over 5K, obviously that all these is down of audiophiles priorities.

Dear friends: and this is what Joseph email me along the picture:

" the Ortofon is testing very impressively.  Over 40dB channel separation.  Excellent sound. "

Obviously a vintage cartridge that along the MC2000 is the one to own as a fACT in some performance characterisitcs is better than the 2000.

Well my sample has the body broken, yes a hole in the ceramic black body that I think that " helps " to liberate inside body resonances.

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : I would like that you link the picture of your MSL stylus tip you showed to me.

The subject is that due that you are " anal " that the cartridges must comes with the stylus tip perfect centered or you return to the seller that cartridge I would like to share with all these Agoners that Steve or Expert stylus are not the only good re-tippers.

Yes, exist many and between those " many " is Joseph Long :

860-338-0153    Cartridge_Retipping@outlook.com    and things are that I shared with you photos that he sended to me of 3 of the 10 cartridges I gave him to been fix it. In these 3 cartridges I ask preserve the cantilever/cartridge original integrity and only change the stylus tip with a line contact stylus shape and he did it choosing one of the Ogura different dimensions tips according the one that mated with the cartridge cantilever.

It's interesting for any audiophile to see the very high precision need it to achieve what you look for about. Some models from different cartridge manufactures comes with out that kind of need it precision but we owners not even take in count because normally we don't care so much with new cartridges and only we take a look when we have a " trouble " with the cartrridge.

From de time you started to point out about I took care with my cartridges and with the ones when my audio friends bring with to listen in my system.

Joseph always is busy due that he works in " solitaire " and he really is very good and with a full experiences with almost any vintage today cartridges and is one of the few re-tippers that recoil the MC if need it Normally he works mainly using Ogura and Gyger parts with several combinations on stylus shapes and cantilever build materials.

I hope @needlestein  ( his moniker ) can read this post and can post the link I showed you.

Btw, this is what you told me about your top of the line MSL and one of my cartridges:

" The stylus on the MSL looks exactly like the one on that blue cartridge. Here is a picture I just took. I have a really nice set up for taking these pictures as you can see.  "

Sure you have " nice set up " that is similar to the quality in thde Joseph Long pictures.

Anyway, he can be a very good alternative over other retippers because additional to his high skills his overall prices are lower than any of the other two I mentioned here and lower $$$ always is a bonus/plus for all of us.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

Dear @newtoncr  : It's not only a coincidence that you and your friend Gary share the same problem on tracking where the MSL compliance is at the lower range value of medium compliance with 10cu.

The PC-1Coda is  same design than your cartridge and in 2021 M.Fremer reviewed and measured the cartridge tracking abilities and found out this:

" The cartridge weighs 12.7gm, and the recommended vertical tracking force (VTF) is 2.0–2.2gm. At 2gm, the PC-1 coda couldn't get past the 50µm-peak track on the Ortofon Test Record. At a VTF of 2.2gm it could cleanly negotiate the 60µm peak (track 11), but it literally slid off the 70µm peak (track 12). In short, the PC-1 coda's tracking abilities are only moderately good, "

No, it's not the MoFi recording but the cartridge low tracking abilities. 

I'm questioning my self why @mijostyn  that's anal on the tracking issue bought a cartridge with lower trackin abilities that not only 80u that's the minimum value accepted by him when his and yours cartridge not even pass the 70u  ! ! 

Yes, Lyra always shows very good tracking abilities and your has around 18cu in compliance, obviously way superior in this regards than MSL.

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : Please check this alternative that if necessary he can recoil your MSL sample. I recpmmended:

Audiogon Discussion Forum

and you can check the link in this post, J.Long can help you:

Audiogon Discussion Forum

R.