A Story about a Defective Signature Platinum

Dear friends: and this is what Joseph email me along the picture:

" the Ortofon is testing very impressively.  Over 40dB channel separation.  Excellent sound. "

Obviously a vintage cartridge that along the MC2000 is the one to own as a fACT in some performance characterisitcs is better than the 2000.

Well my sample has the body broken, yes a hole in the ceramic black body that I think that " helps " to liberate inside body resonances.

R.

Dear @dover  : Certainly the S was the top of the line around Talisman LOMC. I owned all 3 models: A, B and S. Where B and S ( boron and saphire cantilever, the A is an alloy cantilever. ).

The A came with  the smallest elliptical dimension you can imagine and the B and S came with line contact stylus shape.

By its specifications seems to me ( I'm not sure ) that those Talisman were made by Excel due that the great ES-10 has almost the same specs than the S model with no saphire cantilever but Excel made for them similar to the ES-10 with diamond and saphire cantilevers.

I sold the S model because I prefered not only the B but even the A . @mijostyn these with no colorations. Nice cartridges. I think that your appreciation on that " body junction " is not totally correct: Excel makes no mistakes of that caliber but obviously I can be wrong. The fact is that I don't detected any coloration other that Talisman signature.

Btw, as HO the Talisman Alchemist is very good too.

Dover I think that you are diminishing a little the quality performance levels of Talisman because in many ways can be a challenge for cartridges even over 5K, obviously that all these is down of audiophiles priorities.

Dear @mijostyn  : Thank you for Imgur I will reload the pictures. please tell me something and make me a favor: due that you already have the fixed cartridges pictures I emailed to you can you by imgur post here?  I'm sending the Ortofon MC 3000 MK2 too.

Thank's in advance.

Btw, The Talisman design is a yokeless and only one pole piece that Sumiko named Direct Field Coil. Come to my memory other vintage LOMC cartridges that were designed yokeless: Yamaha and Audio Technica, there are others but I don't remember in this moment.

R.

Sorry…but time to dump their tables too. I was really really interested in checking them out but have heard way too many iffy things about their service

I do like Music Direct though…a lot. Too bad they got mixed up with Mofi.

Sorry MoFi (and others)…be on alert, we’re not going to take it (anymore! (Hit it! 🎶)). Best get your $#&* together!

@rauliruegas 

I can do it the way you sent it. You have to send it as a jpeg attachment.

@rauliruegas 

I can't do it the way you sent it!

@rauliruegas 

I got it!

https://imgur.com/a/B7gcnSg

@rauliruegas that pic you sent mijostyn to post of your Ortofon MC 3000 Mk II well the body of the cartridge looks perfectly square BUT the cantilever looks skewed! Your thoughts?

@rsf507 

That is because the camera is not dead on. It is also possible there is not enough anti skate applied. To determine that angle you have to look at the bottom of the cartridge dead on off the record. 

Dear @mijostyn : Thank's for it . @rsf507 according Joseph the separation is over 40db both channels same as the other cartridges. So rigth now I don't worry about maybe in 2-3 weeks the 10 cartridges will arrive to me and let you know. Btw, Joseph said that not only has an impressive separtaion but that sounds fabolous.

Now, I posted about this vintage Ortofon because of that measured over 40db that I know yes is truly impressive when today top cartridges can't be near it but even the Audio Technica measured 36db.

Btw, I'm not telling that all MC3000 MK2 measures the same in that spec. Btw, the cartridge body hole is near the back side, I can't remember if at the left or rigth side.

 Why till today I still own several LOMC cartridges and even retipping it?, easy answer because believe it or not performs just superb by any today quality standards. That's why.

R.

@mijostyn  : I understan that you still ownd the Talisman S and even that I owned in those times I don't care if the cantilever was solid/rod or tube one and I read that the Talisman S cantilever is a tube ruby and the B model a tube boron when the A model came with a composite cantilever of hardened aluminum with magnesium.

Due that you have the rigth set up and skills to " see " it could you confirm that?

Thank's in advance,

R.

@mijostyn re. Invading Texas, LOL. I was going to return a quip about the fact I live in New Mexico but decided against it 😆

Sssshhhhhhhhh, don’t tell Raul 🤫

Dear @mijostyn :

Cartridge pictures Raúl (canva.com)

that blue cartridge that you refered in your emaiI to me is the Fulton RSD, only a few samples of this model exist out there and I was lucky enough to have it: a real collector cartridge.

In its time exist 3-4 Fulton models and the RSD was the top of the line and in the Audio magazine anual library was the higher price cartridge in that list: 1,200.00 even superior to the Koetsu of those time or any other cartridge out of Japan.

I have to tell that all Fulton models came with spherical stylus shape. I owned/own the RSD and the second step in the Fulton catalog and both performs really good but both came with different cartridge motor and cantilevers.

Obviously I don’t ask Joseph ( @needlestein ) for the original spherical stylus shape and was him according the cartridge cantilever who choosed that Ogura line contact that as you told me was similar to your Signature Platinum that in the MSL site says: semi-line contact stylus tip exactly as the top of the line Air Tight.

In this post I link here Joseph Long confirmed about that: semi-line contact where MSL choosed Ogura diamonds and that’s why is similar and perhaps not so polished as yours but I don’t really care because my Fulton RSD is something to listen it even with the spherical stylus tip:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/retip-lyra-delos-and-upgrade/post?postid=2553690#2553690

Btw, I own too that Sumiko Talisman cartridge that Joseph refered in the post due that its smallest vdh stylus tip he found out, yes a great vintage LOMC cartridge. As I told you in my email there is really " nothing new " on MC cartridges, the operational cartridge motor of 40 yeras ago still function with the top today cartridges and I say this with all my respect to cartridge designers As JC that have the high merit to making changes " here and there " achieved and achive levels of performance not only as your MSL but your Lambda SL too and your MC Diamond.

Btw, 

The first picture is the Audio Technica AT36E that’s similar to the AT37 that came with ruby cantilever ( this 37 was only one step down the AT MC 1000 diamond cantilever on those times: this 1000 had in Japan a price tag of 200K Yens. ) and I sold it because the 36 performs better and now with line contact stylus shape I just can’t imagine what is its today qality performance.

The second picture is the LMX that was in the market thank’s to Sumiko and the thrid picture is the Fulton RSD that I already posted its " history " and that today comes with a similar stylus shape than the mijostyn MSL Signature Platinum ( Ogura line contact. ).

R.

R.

The investigation of the AT 36E once more shows that the knowledge is widespread, if sought out.

The Link is seven years old, about 40 Year Old Cart's.

As I am spending time looking into Cart' refurbishments using supplied images from Services willing to do this, as a result discovering that a Damper Material perishes.

It would be interesting to be informed of the Joseph Long assessment about the AT-36E Damper and what his proposal has been for it, at the time of inspection.   

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=90381

Dear @mijostyn  : Following on your Talisman S  I can confirm thatwas made by Excel.

Characteristics similares to my Excel ES 10 Direct Sound, this is the cartridge denomination . This was for Japan domestic market only. This one is the cartridge that we ( Etsuro Gold owner. ) listenined in that session at my place where as a whole the ES 10 beated the Etsuro that today it's made by Excel too but a way different design than in the old times. Originally the ES 10 came with aluminum cantilever and seems to me that near the time the model dissapeared cantilever was berylium as my sample and with Vital PH ( I don't know what it means. ) stylus shape. As with some of my vintage LOMC cartridges I was lucky to got it and the diagram sheet that comes  with shows an impressive flat FR and 32db of separation with both channel output exactly at the same level: 0.21mv. This is a picture of the ES 10 where you can see its 3mm sapphire solid cartridge top plate that it's just unique:

Raúl (canva.com)

Yes, it's almost new  and along the MM Audio Technica AT ML160 LC/OCC ( when you listen for the first time this AT you can't know it's a MM design ) are the cartridges that I'm enjoying in this times.

R.

Btw, LOMC Sumiko LMX in those linked pictures is the original top of the line Coral MC-8 that means Sumiko was a Coral OEM sample.

R.

@rauliruegas , @mijostyn, et al: What equipment / phone apparatus? do you use to take these magnified stylus photos? Might be good to help monitor my own stylus wear?

@rauliruegas 

Sorry Raul. I tossed the cartridge when the left channel went dead. It was a sapphire cantilever and I believe it was a rod not a tube but I can not be sure. Peter Ledermann uses a ruby cantilever, a pretty red one. He makes a special version of the Sussurro called the Sussurro Gold. Some say it is his best cartridge. You should try it!

@ml8764ag 

I use a custom mounted Amscope laboratory USB microscope with a special PC program. A similar set up would cost you around $2500. The closest thing you could get to it ready made would be the WallyScope. 

Dear @mijostyn : Thank’s. Normally I prefer boron over ruby.

Now somewhere it’s a mistake did it for you or MSL. You posted here that your Signature Platinum measured both channels 1.8 ohms however in its site MSL spec says: 1.4 ohm so that difference is nottttt 5% but over 28% higher what you measured.

R.

@rauliruegas 

Here it the link to your pictures https://imgur.com/gallery/YbkY8Rp

That was D/C resistance not impedance. He only reconnected the wires. He did not touch the coils or anything else.

The quoted spec is always DC resistance, even though we sometimes speak of the internal DC resistance as “impedance”. So if the factory spec is 1.4 ohms and 1.8 ohms was measured across the coils, that is a real deviation from the factory spec. However, at such low values, I’m not sure there’s any reason to be concerned. So long as the readings are equal in each channel.

@mijostyn  : Thank's again and if you look in this page of the thread I already posted those pictures.

R.

@lewm 

They are exactly equal and the cartridge sounds fine and the gain is exactly the same. (Transimpedance) 

@rauliruegas 

I missed that. The wife and I were away for our 35th wedding anniversary. I left the computer home, more important fish to fry, if you know what I mean:-) 

@mijostyn … thanks for the info…was hoping there was some magic lens you could attach to your phone.  Definitely could pay for itself for the right cases. 

@ml8764ag 

Those magnifications are way beyond any lens like that. The other problem is you would never be able to hold the phone steady enough to get a picture or even get a small item in field. 

If you go to my virtual system page pull up the picture of my wall cabinet. To the left is a desk. On it you can see the horizontal microscope and the lighting source in their parked positions.  

As a final note on this thread I am pleased to report that MoFi did reimburse me for repair of the Platinum Signature cartridge in full.

Fairytale ending in a good way.

Well, good on MoFi / MusicDirect for following through and doing the right thing! Even though it took a fair threshold of blowback to get their butts moving lol. I remain unimpressed by the "value add" offered by official high-end cartridge importers / distributors, but at least it’s nonzero.

My next (somewhat related) concern is how much longer we can expect service (even if just a 50% trade in allowance) & production from MSL. Do they have a cartridge master heir in place? Koetsu is now down with questionable future (RIP Fumihiko Sugano). I’ve heard some concerning rumblings about Benz / Lukaschek. Shelter seems to be winding way down - I couldn’t even get a 901 Mk 3 when I wanted to order one. A LOT of the old guard cartridge masters are at "that age". I have a friend interested in an MSL Platinum and this is a key concern of his.

Dear @mulveling : The Atlas Lambda SL is way better and with no concern about.

R.

Dear @mulveling : The Atlas Lambda SL is way better and with no concern about.

The friend in question has heard high-end Lyra’s at his dealer, and they’re definitely not to his preference. He’s looking for something that hits a middle ground between that and Koetsu, perhaps more to the Koetsu side. He really likes my Blue Lace but that’s out of the running now, sadly. Hasn’t heard MSL yet, but I think he’s pretty well sold on the Platinum doing something along those lines.

I have an Air Tight PC-7 here, but don't think that's very representative of the MSL line. I really like it for what it is, though!

@mulveling 

I would think the Air Tight is very representative. Same designer and builder. MSL probably makes more cartridges for other companies than they make for themselves. I would think that it is valuable and will soldier on with Matsudaira san's absence. 

@rauliruegas 

Yes, the Atlas SL is a more detailed cartridge with a better sense of the third dimension assuming you have a phono stage that can handle it's very low output. Most people should stick with the regular Atlas which I have not heard. The Signature Platinum will match up with just about any phono stage. 

@mulveling My wife gave me an Epoch 3 for the last birthday, and I can say that it’s better in every respect than my diamond rosewood (out of the box vs 1400 hours with minimal wear at 1000). Tonearm wands pampas grass and panzerholz, respectively. Epoch / pampas grass slightly clearer, slightly better dynamics, far better tracking, with consummate smoothness. Don’t know how much of that is the wand, but pretty sure not all of it, especially not tracking

Pampas grass can make a great tonearm wand. Ugly yes - I’m working on that. Let me know if you are interested.

@terry9 

Pampas Grass?? You embedding it in resin?

Sort of. Several stalks bonded together with elasomeric glue with an orthogonal epoxy laminate. Lacking resonance altogether and stiff as carbon fibre epoxy. The exotic high-tech wands look rather primitive to me now.

@terry9 

Please post a picture here or on your system page. Thanks.

I live in Chicago and have been buying from Music Direct for around 15 years.  Their CS used to be excellent.  About a year ago I purchased as Technics 1500 Direct Drive and had a problem.  They were pretty frosty but I finally showed up at their place unannounced, tt in tow, and an hour later got my problem resolved.  Happy ending, but it isn’t the same company.  Glad they ultimately came through for the OP

@jperry Please post a picture here or on your system page. Thanks.

Done. Panzerholz and Pampas grass.

@terry9 

You can't have that mess in your system. You need to give it to someone with a lath to turn then dip it in clear acrylic. 

@mijostyn You don't understand. It's a proof of concept. In any case, it's a triangular prism, not a cylinder.

@terry9 Love the images, you are a pioneer, there is a Tonearm Thread on Lenco Heaven where concept Arm Wands are appearing, It would be great to see the Pampas Grass Version used on the DIY TA Design in that thread. 

I have been interested in producing my own version of a Resin Impregnated  Densified Wood. The idea of more orientations of the cross grain has been the stimulus.

I do believe with the correct viscosity resin, the Pampas Grass placed into a Vacuum Chamber at a first stage of applying the resin could produce a resin impregnated wand. Especially with the correct viscosity for a resin selected.

Resin Impregnation is a big subject today, it is a Science and there is plenty of White Papers to be found on the subject, it is all good reading when the correct content is discovered. 

As there is no need to compress, this as a concept does seem doable, and the post Heat Treatment should also be easily achieved.

An individual I know was putting their Oilites in a Vacuum Chamber with a Lubricant of their choice and was relubricating both New and 30+ Year old Oilites. The process was kept going until the micro bubbles developing and separating from the Oilite was almost ceased. 

@pindac  Thank you for the kind words. And far more, thank you for your thoughtful suggestions.

I am running a linear tracker, so the horizontal effective mass is the mass of the whole assembly. This is about 200 g - the mass of the air bushing alone is 50 g, and then there's the counterweight and cartridge. You can see how important it is for me to keep the rigidity high and the mass low. This precludes densification for my application.

So I opted for a different approach. At first I thought of a foam core surrounded by fibre and epoxy, but then I weighed some pampas grass stalks and found them to be little heavier than foam, and just as non-resonant. Further, when laminated, they are quite rigid on their own, and form a constraining layer to constrict the epoxy. Orient the fibre as a winding, and throw in some elastomeric glue, and the result sings.

Vacuum chamber is a very good idea to increase rigidity and consistency. I'll try that on the next iteration. Thanks!

@terry9 ,

Being a pioneer is fine and dandy, but there is an aesthetic element that you have to pay attention to. 

Depends on your aesthetic. If looking pretty concerns you most, then pretty you will have, but performance will be hit and miss - a commonplace in the audio world. If, however, sounding good concerns you most, you will start with good sound and evolve towards pretty. If you have nothing better to do, or to spend on, that is.

@terry9 

Function and aesthetics always run together. The trick is making a functional object aesthetically pleasing. What will happen with an arm like that is everyone will think it looks like (insert any appropriate four letter word here) and have absolutely no interest in it regardless of how well it performs. Experimenting like this is a fun thing to do. If it is only for yourself and you do not care what it looks like then that is totally your prerogative. However, if I were an audiophile friend of yours, visited and saw that I would privately think you were nuts. What you see effects what you hear. 

@terry9 

View this as a challenge. You have an idea which you have tested with a prototype now make it look good!

From 09:01, on the 12th, "Pampas grass can make a great tonearm wand. Ugly yes - I’m working on that." Sorry for sharing my prototypes, but I thought others might be interested.

@terry9 

Stand by your intentions, this is not a commercial item, it is a personal expression, more in keeping with a artistic flair applied to producing a tool. 

It is the result of a creative thinking from a 'what if' attitude.

From my perspective the aesthetic of the design is not to WOW!, it is much more akin to the ideal "function over form"  

Or a even more modern ideal “eliminate all unimportant opportunities.”

Design and Art are both quite capable of being stimulants at causing opposing thoughts to be aired. 

Very recently I started to pass by a Office Block Main Entrance in London, that has as the main feature of attention being a exposed Concrete Column, left to remain in its roughest of condition.

I get it, in the sense the designer wanted to show a snippet of honesty, in relation to what is a usually concealed very important part of the structure. 

I also don't get what a Multi Hundreds of Million Building is doing with such a unavoidable Carbuncle a few feet within its main entrance door.

I am easily prompted to join a discussion where opposing thoughts are stimulated. 

 I look forward to learning about your thoughts on a version produced by utilising a Vacuum Chamber.