Reviewers always amaze me with how much manufacturer’s text they use in their reviews. I’m sure a lot is justified, such as essential product features. But their borrowed texted often extends well beyond that basic info.
A DAC that crushes price vs. performance ratio
I felt strongly that I wanted to inform the Gon members about a new DAC that ranks with the very best on the market regarding performance, but costs around $2,000.00. The Lab12 DAC1 SE was compared to three reference level DACS that retail for over $12.000.00 in my review for hometheaterreview.com and was at least on the same level sonicly, if not better. This DAC from Greece is not just "good for the money" but competes with virtually anything on the market regardless of price!
For all the details about the Lab12 DAC1 SE performance and what other DACS it was compared to take a look at the review. If you are shopping/looking for a new digital front end to drive your system, you owe it to yourself to check this DAC out, unless you like to spend tons of more $ without getting better performance.
For all the details about the Lab12 DAC1 SE performance and what other DACS it was compared to take a look at the review. If you are shopping/looking for a new digital front end to drive your system, you owe it to yourself to check this DAC out, unless you like to spend tons of more $ without getting better performance.
282 responses Add your response
roxy54 said..."If you’re an ordinary guy, like myself, and not an electrical engineer, this can really become confusing and intimidating. This is something that we didn’t have to deal with way back when. I was reading a review of a DAC last night, and I was honestly lost with 90% of the explanation of the piece technically." I agree...I think when there is not much else to say about a product under review..technobabble is used for fill. It can be helpful at times, but does take away from the actual point of reading a good review...which should be more about 'quality of sound' first and jargon latter..if at all. |
Charles, I know you too well...I know that you weren't trying to discourage me. As I said; I am being a little lazy and impractical. Many years ago now, John Rutan introduced me to my first AN DAC, the Zero something, can't remember exactly, but it was their lowest model and it had the miniature tubes that were soldered in. It was a revelation and I kept it for years. When I was finally ready, I had the ANK 2.1 built for me and again, it was a happy revelation. You are correct clio09, it is a good piece. I know of course, and I can sometimes imagine while listening, that there is room for improvement, but it is so natural and believable to my ears that I know the designer was on the right track. I'm sure that I would probably be happy with several of these fine DACs, but I'd better slow down and think a bit. |
I don’t know what it is but I don’t like Audio Note equipment (post Kondo-san), except for the AN-E speakers and their DACs. Somehow they got that right, my opinion of course. That being said I have used the Lessloss DAC 2004 MkII now for 12 years. It oversamples and I’ve tried the NOS DACs too, but this one has stayed. The only other DAC I enjoyed as much was the original Monarchy Audio M-24 referred to me by Lynn Olson and Thom Mackris (Galbier Design). If an analog and turntable manufacturer likes a DAC you take notice. Okay so I’m looking for another DAC. I use a CEC transport slaved to the Lessloss in a small bedroom system. I have a NOS DAC I now use temporarily in my main system. Somewhat special, but perhaps not the end game. The two DAC manufacturers that have caught my attention so far are Metrum and Denafrips. I can tell you right now as an analog tape and vinyl guy I am not pulling the trigger on either, but it is fun to look. @roxy54 - sometimes the best DAC is the one you are currently listening to. I happen to think you have an excellent DAC. |
Roxy54, I wasn’t trying to discourage you at all regarding the Lab 12 DAC. Quite the contrary. I just decided to comment because of you mentioning the Holo Springs which I had direct experience with. I say go forward with your plans to acquire that Labs 12 DAC it could turn out to be fantastic in your system. Charles |
Charles, Thanks, and I hear what you're saying loud and clear. I guess I'm not really being practical about this. I just want to get a DAC that is better than the one that I have without much bother, because I can't try either before I buy them. I have actually loved my ANK 2.1 for several years now, but felt that it was time to take the next step up. I guess nothing is that easy unless I stay with ANK, and really know what to expect, although I had an email exchange with Terry (Teajay) today, and was heartened to hear from him that he was familiar with some upper end Audio Note DACs, and found the Lab 12 superior. |
Based on specs and forum buzz, the $2.5K ifi Pro iDSD DAC looks like a potential giant-killer. Any experience with this one? It has some features that appeal to me, such as a 10mhz master clock input and the ability to take power from an external 12Vdc LPS. (I already have an SRS PERF10 and a Hynes SR7 for this purpose.) |
Roxy54, I do understand the appeal of NOS and R2R chips and ladder topologies. I would just say that there’s more to the "big picture" viewpoint. I haven’t heard the Lab12 DAC SE but have no reason to question Teajay’s enthusiastic review. A friend let me borrow his Holo Springs level III DAC so I could hear it in my system. As you know it is NOS and R2R discrete resistor ladder design. It was actually a very good sounding DAC in my 300b SET/DHT Line stage based system. In direct comparison to my Yamamoto YDA O1a DAC we felt that both were organic in nature, the Yamamoto was more ’alive, extended and dynamic in presentation . In reality more emotionally involving. The Yamamoto is delta sigma(Texas Instruments 1794 chip) and over samples 8x (but with minimal digital filtering) no NFB or OP-amps. My only point is that you really have to listen to these DACs to judge their sound quality. Delta sigma versus R2R is only part of the story and I don’t believe that one can be declared superior to the other. I hope you do get to hear the Lab 12 DAC SE in your system. Best of luck to you. Charles |
If you’re an ordinary guy, like myself, and not an electrical engineer, this can really become confusing and intimidating. This is something that we didn’t have to deal with way back when. I was reading a review of a DAC last night, and I was honestly lost with 90% of the explanation of the piece technically. So, Steve N., can you comment on the design of the Holo Spring Kitsune as compared to the Lab 12 regarding jitter/filtering? Other opinions are welcome as well. Thanks, John |
Listen to CharlesDAD and Almarg. They both have the experience. The #1 issue with digital playback is jitter. The #2 issue is digital filtering. When you consider NOS DAC based on these older chips, you are minimizing the digital filtering problem. The problem with older chips like this is that you will sacrifice a bit of speed, so transients/leading edges may not be as live as a newer D/A chip. They deliver a very analog sound though. The best of both worlds is a chip that you can tune the digital filtering and it is newer so it's faster. If you can find a DAC that has these attributes, I recommend that one. I also don't like to see a DAC with built-in reclocker on the S/PDIF inputs. This limits the ability to get better sound by applying lower jitter external sources as they become available. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
http://avmentor.gr/reviews/lab12_dac1_se_1.htm Just take a look at this. |
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DAC-TDA1543-NOS-8-0-DIR9001-tube-6DJ8-6922-/321993586576?_mwBanner=1&nm... Here you have the circuit board,just different caps output stage close to tube.The construction is from a china salesman. |
I agree with Charles' comment as well. I would add that the knowledge and experience that goes into the design of the printed circuit board itself can make a big difference in the performance of a DAC. How signals, power, and grounds are routed and distributed within the circuit board, and also how power is "decoupled" (i.e., filtered) immediately adjacent to all of the critical chips, are all hugely important in a DAC design. Best regards, -- Al |
I agree with the comments in regard to the cost of the chips in the DAC under discussion. The cost of the chips isn’t a predictor of how the DAC will sound as a finished product. IMHO too much attention is placed on the chips to begin with. I’d summit that individually I/V conversion, analog output stage and quality of the power supply are at the very least as important. Collectively these three factors are I believe far more important in determining sound quality of a DAC. I’m just a big believer in design, integration and implementation as being more impactful than isolating the contributions of the chosen chip set. I honestly feel that power supply quality tends to be underappreciated in general when discussing audio components. Charles |
Hi Al, That’s what I had read, and I know that this configuration has been used in the past to some extent, (oppo I think) and that’s one of the things that got me excited about it. I’ll admit to being very enthusiastic about non-oversampling DACs in general. They just sound so much more natural than the other DACs I’ve owned and heard. |
To add to the foregoing comments, it’s worth noting that the DAC uses eight of the TDA1543 d/a converter chips (each of which can handle two channels), in "a complex parallel configuration." And eight chips are used even though the DAC only provides single-ended outputs, with just one output signal having to be generated for each of the two channels. Assuming good design, that will result in considerably better performance than if only one chip was used. Regards, -- Al |
If you are just looking for a dac that measure flat you can get a Topping dac for a couple hundred bucks new . If you want a dac that boosts frequencies there are dozens of " Audiophile" dacs on the market to choose from . Unfortunately you will have to try them all to see what frequency boosts go good with your system . I prefer to go neutral on the dac and go from there as far as adding colorations I prefer . |
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Always enjoy reading about the new DACs on the market here with you guys....and have listened to many. Most on this forum have been overlooking iFi Audio's "Black" Micro iDSD DAC that at $550 has been reigning superior for a couple of years in my book. However iFi just released their "pro" DAC a couple of months ago that comes in at around $2500. Hands down the best DAC I have ever heard in my life and brings my system to life like never before. Can I get a witness?! -Captain E |
Has the Lab 12 DAC1 SE been born again? Still wondering why all the fuss over a 5 year old DAC. Not saying being 5 years old is necessarily a bad thing, just can’t understand the comments about it being "new". It’s not the only DAC with great reviews that uses the cheap Philips chip - the Border Patrol DAC is another. |
I remember back in the early 90s the Sony walk man cd player was using a good digital converter ever a few reviewers mentioned it as a option to hook up to your system. a great builder of this Phillips chipset .Jerry Osmet- Audio Logic fame . I owned 2 of his units .my brother still has 1 .look on the used market for one maybe $1k or under. |
Also in 30 years of professional sales experience we have seen products that have performed well for less money like the Auralic Vega but again that was a $3,500 dac that matched in some ways a $7,000.00 Meitner but again, not a $2k dac that is sounding close to a $10k one.Pardon my ignorance, but I’m having a difficult time trying to figure out how we are getting to 10k with a DAC. A $20 chip, a nice $200 case, maybe another $100 for a special power supply...sorry just not understanding the parts breakdown in relation to the final cost. Seems that 2k could get you a top shelf product. I realize that we are talking very small batch products. I imagine a company making a 10k DAC might only sell 20-30 of them. Defining better might just be defining different. |
It’s been a long time since I read and/or reply on all of this A-n b.s.))) I actually surprised to see that in 2018 so many people still wasting their time reading all this b.s. by paid writers/reviewers instead of listening to YouTube audio/video samples that proves such claimsof “ and disregarded those “legends” that are not supported by said samples. |
Teajay- I can’t believe what you said in your response: “This NOS Phillips DAC chip is extremely held in high esteem by many listeners/designers because if used in the right way”. So you are saying that only 1 manufacturer can perform magic on a budget/cheap chip to make it sound much better than all the more common chips used in 99% of the other well known dacs. I didn’t make my comments up, if you do a search on your chip, you will find a lot of people indicating it’s a cheap budget chip. when I did audition many dacs years ago, most of the top manufacturers used a common set of chips. Like I said, if a dac doesn’t use FPGA, I won’t even look at it, so no, I didn’t review your dac and I didn’t claim I did. |
Hey celander, Here's the answers to your questions: 1) I scored my NOS CCA 1962 Siemens from Brent Jesse. 2) All the details regarding how the DAC sounded/performed presented in the review apply to Lab12 with the stock tubes and the Siemens. 3) Yes, with the Siemens you get a little more of an "organic" sound then with the stock tubes, but either way the DAC sounds wonderful. 4) Mike Kay (Audio Archon) has at least three different excellent NOS 6922 tubes that he can provide, along with the standard stock tube, to tailor the sound to your personal taste. However, with the stock tube it's a great musical presentation. |
I reread this review before scheduling a visit to the Libertyville shop that carries this DAC. It appears that the review’s critical listening commentary pertains to the DAC fitted with a NOS CCA 1962 Siemens tube rather than the DAC fitted with the stock 6922 tube. Since consumers are going to audition the stock unit, I’m wondering whether Terry might provide additional insight about his listening impressions of the stock unit. I could not find a supplier of the NOS CCA 1962 Siemens cited in the review. So it will be challenging to capture all of the sonic qualities reported in the review. |
@teajay thanks for your reply. It's a little confusing as they seem to have been using the same nomenclature for a long time (in DAC years). It would be interesting to know more about the improvements - I might reach out to the company directly, as you suggest. https://youtu.be/_FWuquRmMVA |
Hey janehamble, The Lab12 DAC that we are discussing on this thread is the newer version called the SE. I do believe that the DAC chips and basic overall design is the same, with better/different internal parts in the circuit in critical places that improve the sound. For more details contact Audio Archon or Lab 12 directly. |
