A far more accurate and useful metric of the speed accuracy of a TT is to simply look at the raw yellow trace, ignoring the numbers. How close is it to the ideal symmetrical, clean, constant amplitude, sine wave?You mean like THIS????Â
3 New UBER Decks - Is this Turntable's SwanSong? đŠą
Michael Fremer has recently reviewed three new turntables designed to be the 'Last Word', 'Cost no Object' STATEMENTS!!!!........Do I recall hearing this claim before??
I love Mikey and have followed (and trusted) him for decades.
He has been the longest and foremost published 'champion' of the superiority of vinyl (uber alles) in the world.
I am thus ecstatic that he has been able to listen and compare these decks in his own room, with his own equipment virtually side-by-side
It's almost a 'given' that he will be the ONLY person on earth given that privilege....
So what Mikey HEARS.....is indisputable
Given his 'character' and desire for accuracy and honesty.....years ago, Mikey started including some 'objective' measurements in his turntable reviews.
These measurements were done utilising the Dr Feikert PlatterSpeed App which has since been discontinued.
As the App only worked with the Mac iOS of many variations ago.....Mikey has kept an old iPhone which can still operate the App.
The PlatterSpeed App had a few technical limitations.....
Foremost amongst these, was its dependence on a 7" record with an embedded 3150 Hz Frequency track to produce a test-tone which the App could process through its algorithm to produce the graphs and all the corresponding numbers.
To stamp hundreds of 7" discs with perfectly 'centred' HOLES is a nigh impossibility.
It's almost impossible to do it with a 12" disc!!!
This means that ALL the figures produced in their Chart Info are dubious and mostly UNREPEATABLE!!!!
I have Chart Infos for the same turntable/arm combination but with the 7" disc moved slightly producing different figures.
I even have Chart Infos produced with the same turntable but different arms ALL with different figures (the arms are in different positions surrounding my TURNTABLE).
So what is my point......?
The GRAPH produced with the PlatterSpeed App is accurate and USEABLE when looking at the 'Green' Lowpass-Filtered Frequency.
If the hole was PERFECTLY centred.....this 'Green' line would be perfectly STRAIGHT......but only if the turntable was maintaining its speed PERFECTLY.
The wobbles in the 'Green' line are due to the hole's eccentricity as well as any speed aberrations.
So the best performing turntables are those with the most constant and even wobbles approaching as closely as possible a STRAIGHT LINE.
It appears that SAT have corrupted what is a very good DD Motor unit....đ„Ž
Mikey says that the OMA-K3 produced the best PlatterApp figures of any turntable he has tested đ
Does this mean that the OMA-K3 is the most accurate turntable of these three decks.....or maybe of ALL turntables?
Mikey can't (and won't) test and review products from the past which are no longer produced because that's not his job!
But wouldn't it be great if someone WOULD review products from the past against the modern equivalent?
Classic turntables with reputations....gravitas...like the legendary EMT 927 and Micro Seiki SX-5000 and SX-8000.
And what about the NOW lauded Japanese DD Turntables from the '80s...the 'Golden Age' of Analogue?
Here endeth the Sermon for today đ€
I love Mikey and have followed (and trusted) him for decades.
He has been the longest and foremost published 'champion' of the superiority of vinyl (uber alles) in the world.
I am thus ecstatic that he has been able to listen and compare these decks in his own room, with his own equipment virtually side-by-side
It's almost a 'given' that he will be the ONLY person on earth given that privilege....
So what Mikey HEARS.....is indisputable
Given his 'character' and desire for accuracy and honesty.....years ago, Mikey started including some 'objective' measurements in his turntable reviews.
These measurements were done utilising the Dr Feikert PlatterSpeed App which has since been discontinued.
As the App only worked with the Mac iOS of many variations ago.....Mikey has kept an old iPhone which can still operate the App.
The PlatterSpeed App had a few technical limitations.....
Foremost amongst these, was its dependence on a 7" record with an embedded 3150 Hz Frequency track to produce a test-tone which the App could process through its algorithm to produce the graphs and all the corresponding numbers.
To stamp hundreds of 7" discs with perfectly 'centred' HOLES is a nigh impossibility.
It's almost impossible to do it with a 12" disc!!!
This means that ALL the figures produced in their Chart Info are dubious and mostly UNREPEATABLE!!!!
I have Chart Infos for the same turntable/arm combination but with the 7" disc moved slightly producing different figures.
I even have Chart Infos produced with the same turntable but different arms ALL with different figures (the arms are in different positions surrounding my TURNTABLE).
So what is my point......?
The GRAPH produced with the PlatterSpeed App is accurate and USEABLE when looking at the 'Green' Lowpass-Filtered Frequency.
If the hole was PERFECTLY centred.....this 'Green' line would be perfectly STRAIGHT......but only if the turntable was maintaining its speed PERFECTLY.
The wobbles in the 'Green' line are due to the hole's eccentricity as well as any speed aberrations.
So the best performing turntables are those with the most constant and even wobbles approaching as closely as possible a STRAIGHT LINE.
- Frequency Chart AIRFORCE ZEROÂ Note significant aberrations highlighted with red arrows
- Frequency Chart SAT XD-1Â Not bad...
- Frequency Chart OMA-K3Â Pretty, pretty, pretty good......
It appears that SAT have corrupted what is a very good DD Motor unit....đ„Ž
Mikey says that the OMA-K3 produced the best PlatterApp figures of any turntable he has tested đ
Does this mean that the OMA-K3 is the most accurate turntable of these three decks.....or maybe of ALL turntables?
Mikey can't (and won't) test and review products from the past which are no longer produced because that's not his job!
But wouldn't it be great if someone WOULD review products from the past against the modern equivalent?
Classic turntables with reputations....gravitas...like the legendary EMT 927 and Micro Seiki SX-5000 and SX-8000.
And what about the NOW lauded Japanese DD Turntables from the '80s...the 'Golden Age' of Analogue?
- Technics SP-10Mk3
- Kenwood L-07D
- Pioneer P3
- Victor TT-101
- Yamaha GT-2000
- Frequency Chart VICTOR TT-101 Hmmmm đ€Ż
- Frequency Chart TW RAVEN AC-2Â Hmmmm....
We can do things today that were only dreamt of even 10 years agoExcept learn from history, harvest experience, expertise and craftsmanship......
Here endeth the Sermon for today đ€
132 responses Add your response
Yes.; The Yellow trace is a a long way away from the ideal sine wave, its pretty messy. This TT is not micro speed stable. As I implied before, on average it takes 1.8 seconds to complete a single revolution ( 33.333 rpm) so the filtered Green trace is nice, but not a robust measure of what is going on inside each revolution.  BTW the TT-101 is one of the TT's that has the subsonic resonance. It takes heavy duty real-time computing power to eliminate this. Maybe it was available back then but probably not in a device that was economically viable. Cheers.  |
While turntables are not easy for the average person to truly compare, especially since they need the same arm and cart, I can relay some of my own experience upgrading tables. Speed stability is a fantastic thing (listen to some Plangent process digital masterings vs. a standard one and you hear how solid it sounds when tape machine wow and flutter is corrected. However Iâm not sure thatâs where the sonic benefits come from comparing well designed tables. Many years ago I upgraded from a Raven One table that I heavily tweaked. It sat on a Halcyonics active vibration table with a Sistrum stand bypassing the tableâs feet. It had a TTW copper platter top/clamp/ periphery ring and tape leader as a belt. It was a fantastic sounding table and taken to another level with tweeks. I became so enamored with TTWâs accessories, I bought their Momentus Supreme table driven by 3 belts. I was expecting an improvement, but a nuanced one. I put the same Graham Phantom II arm and Strain Gauge cart on the TTW and I was pretty shocked to hear just how much more dynamic the music was, and how much wider bandwidth it had. This was just the pure table without vibration table or copper platter top. It was truly eye opening and a good lesson I suppose on how there is no getting around physics, at least as analog goes. I can only imagine what a cost no object table sounds like..... (of course Iâve set myself up for someone to come back and say.... âit sounds like a $1000 dacâ) I havenât fired up my Adjust Plus software (a more complex version of the App the measurement in this topic were taken from- but came with a 12â LP) in a very long time, because Iâm a Mac guy and itâs PC only, but Iâm now tempted to get it going and test out my tableâs speed stability. |
The Yellow trace is a a long way away from the ideal sine wave, its pretty messy. This TT is not micro speed stable.So you're basically saying.....with the PlatterSpeed App
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Dear @halcro : Years ago when every one including you were touted the JVC 101 I posted at least 3 times in those threads ( in your thread. ) that the 101 was an average TT with nothing especial to say Wow. I know that you was so angry with me because my posts about but its specs are really mediocre/average for a DD unit with a w&f 0.02% and s/n 75db, normal for average TTs. Denons way superior on specs and some of its models came with bi-directional servos too but Denon decided not a good thing and return to single servo including in its top DP-100. Other that what Richard pointed out a fact is in the price that had the 101 that was low: The top of the line 801 specs were similar to the average Denonâs: 0.01% and 80db. This unit came with hold down LP mechanism and even that characteristic its price in Japan was 130,000 Yens when the Technics MK3 was ( in the same year. ) 250,000 Yens ( MK2: 150K. ). The 101 was 75K. These data comes from the audio Japan Bible. Is it a bad TT ? no but you overrated with no clear facts that even today you have not and thatâs why you are questioning RK. Donât distress about because you are enjoying it and this is what matters to you. So what ! ! the TT still is an average unit and nothing more. Btw, even with out the RK posts all what I posted here is the same I posted years ago and I just confirmed again. Nothing changed and og course is only an opinion. R. |
Halcro. I think that the numbers and green graph are useful provided their limitations are taken into account. Mean frequency.... This is a good number to have. We are looking for 3150Hz, so nice and close to this is desirable. Raw frequency⊠Max deviation. (relative ) This is the max percentage deviation, negative and positive, from the mean frequency. Ideally the two numbers should be the same Max deviation (absolute) This is the max frequency deviation, negative and positive from the mean frequency. Ideally the two numbers should be the same. What the deviation numbers do not show is the variation between the deviation of individual positive and negative swings. They all should be the same, (constant amplitude) and for this information we need to refer to the yellow graph. Lowpass-filtered Frequency..... This data taken from the green trace. The limitation here is that this trace is heavily filtered version of the yellow trace. And it is very inconsistent from test to test. Look at the 1000R yellow trace and compare this with the TT-101 yellow trace. There is an enormous difference yet, post filtering they yield very similar green traces  I have run sequential tests on my SP10 Mk 3 and got Low pass -0.01%/+0.01% followed by -0.02%/ +0.03%. I have outlined some of the reasons for this inconsistency. As I said earlier, below a certain percentage, these figures aren't robust. Obviously we do not want to see any standout perturbations in the green trace and in this way it can be very useful. My point is that this data is derived from the yellow trace which is taken from the cartridge output. After all, it is the cartridgeâs output that we listen to. To really see how the TT is behaving in fine detail, we need to analyse the yellow trace from the perspective of what a perfectly speed stable TT would look like. A clean sine wave, symmetrically centred around 3150hz with a constant amplitude for each cycle. As we can see, advances in technology have clearly improved the situation.   The subsonic speed resonance in the TT-101 can be seen as periodic cycling every 5 revolutions. If you look at the first traces you posted (yellow) , you will see a positive peak just after 5 seconds. This peak appears again just after14 and 23 seconds. The smaller positive and negative excursions in between these peaks follow the same pattern with their 9 second spaced partners. There is a recurring pattern to the shape of this waveform with a period of 9 seconds.   Cheers, |
I introduced this Thread by describing the limitations of the PlatterSpeed App that Michael Fremer has been using for years to test turntables. The GRAPH produced with the PlatterSpeed App is accurate and USEABLE when looking at the 'Green' Lowpass-Filtered Frequency.The yellow RAW Frequency Plot is what is measured from the 3150 Hz Test Tone and makes NO compensation for the record 'hole eccentricity'. The 'Green' Lowpass-Filtered Frequency uses the PlatterSpeed Algorithm to 'filter' the 'hole-eccentricity' and produce an accurate graphical plot of the turntable's performance. If we didn't have the GREEN Frequency Plot that PlatterApp gives us......we wouldn't need PlatterApp at all!!! đ€Ș We could ALL just do a Plot of the RAW Frequency response of a random 3150 Hz Test Tone đ€Â Having been embarrassed by the results of the OMA-K3 compared to the 40 year-old Victor TT-101.....Richard Krebs (the designer of the "most powerful turntable motor on earth") now wants an AUDIT of the 'votes cast' and disqualify those votes shown to be unfavourable to HIS candidate and count only the single vote he believes will allow his turntable to win đ The following Plots are done with my 40 year-old Victor TT-81 DD Turntable (bought for $500) with the Test-Disc fixed in one location and the three differently positioned tonearms playing the Test-Tone. TT-81 with WE-8000/ST TT-81 with FR-64S TT-81 with DV-507/II  Note the almost STRAIGHT line of the 'Green' Plot for the WE-8000/ST. The OMA-K3 can't get close..... Now the fundamental revelation of these three Plots, is that whilst the YELLOW 'Raw Frequency Plot' varies wildly for all three arms.....the GREEN 'Low-Pass Filtered Plot' remains relatively stable and consequently USABLE!!!! đ Richard Krebs however, prefers to make his 'scientific' judgements from ONE meaningless RAW Plot.......đ€Ż |
A far more accurate and useful metric of the speed accuracy of a TT is to simply look at the raw yellow trace, ignoring the numbers. How close is it to the ideal symmetrical, clean, constant amplitude, sine wave?I can't see a clean, constant-amplitude sine wave for the OMA-K3...? A clean sine wave, symmetrically centred around 3150hz with a constant amplitude for each cycle. As we can see, advances in technology have clearly improved the situation. I'm looking for that clean sine-wave but I just can't see it for the OMA-K3? Please help me here.....đ |
@halcro Itâs all smoke and mirrors and fanciful postulation from the uneducated. It is not possible to measure wow & flutter using a test record. If you use a rotary function generator to measure the turntable performance directly off the platter, the results will be more accurate than any test record. For an explanation from someone who actually has a degree in physics and acoustical engineering - Bruce Thigpen of Eminent Technology. Here is Bruces explanation from his Eminent Technology website. Bruce has many patents and inventions including his unique air bearing tonearm, rotary subwoofer, vacuum platter as implenmented by SOTA, and many others. Bruce Thigpen - Reviewers have incorrectly attributed wow and flutter to the turntable. Since the advent of the belt drive turntable, wow and flutter has been purely a function of tonearm geometry, the phono cartridge compliance with the elastomeric damping, and surface irregularities in the LP. In our own lab we have measured many high quality turntables using a rotary function generator directly connected to the platters of the turntables. The measured results are usually an order of magnitude better than the results using a tonearm and test record (conventional wow and flutter method). Further proof exists if you take two tonearms, one straight line and one pivoted and mount them both on the same turntable. The straight line tonearm will give a wow and flutter reading with the same cartridge/test record of about 2/3 to 1â2that of the pivoted arm (.03% < .07% to .05%). This is because the straight line tonearm has a geometry advantage and lateral motion does not result in stylus longitudinal motion along the groove of the record. Another proof is to take two different cartridges, one high compliance and one low compliance, and take measurements with both using the same turntable and tonearm. The reading of wow and flutter will be different. All wow and flutter readings are higher than the rotational consistency of the turntable. |
@dover Itâs all smoke and mirrors and fanciful postulation from the uneducated.đ I've heard nothing but positive reports about Bruce Thigpen and especially his ET 2.5 Airbearing Tonearm. For years I've dreamt about installing his ingenious TRW-17 attic-mounted subwoofer đ€ Thanks for posting that interesting article from him. Maybe that's the reason each different tonearm produces a different result on the same turntable....? |
@halcro Maybe thatâs the reason each different tonearm produces a different result on the same turntable....? Very much so. I have had a lot of arms, including the ET2 on my Final Audio VTT1 TT over the years, with the same group of cartridges. Here is a gem from JCarr on coherency - Musical timing in my view is not only affected by TT speed stability, but also arm/cartridge/phono considerations. From my own ears, Bruceâs assertions with regard to his linear tracker and wow and flutter are on the money. |
Halcro. I echo Raul in that I'm happy that you are enjoying your TT's. After all, this is what this hobby is all about. Dover. Thank you for your sage input. Yes the arm/cartridge are part of the loop so they do impact the figures, Halcro has just demonstrated that. That said, within its limitations, the platter speed app does give a reasonable snap shot of what the platter is doing and is thus useful in differentiating between TT's, as I have been trying to demonstrate. But we abandoned it during the development phase, partially for the reasons you mentioned and due to its lack of consistency. Primarily though, it simply doesn't have the granularity we were looking for. We are measuring well in excess of 1 million directly read samples per revolution. |
@richardkrebs That said, within its limitations, the platter speed app does give a reasonable snap shot of what the platter is doing and is thus useful in differentiating between TTâs, as I have been trying to demonstrate.I dont agree - too many variables. My nephew has a double PHD in Maths and Physics, specialises in predictive modelling, and even with the firepower at his disposal ( heads up a team for one the worlds largest banks ) I doubt that any conclusions could be drawn even if you had a database of 1000âs of tests - by conclusions I mean anything statistically and scientifically relevant. We are measuring well in excess of 1 million directly read samples per revolution. GP Monaco made similar claims, and then they came out with a Mark 1.5, then a Mark 2 and so on. Of course there are now electrical components capable of switching at a trillionth of a second, so a million every 1.8 seconds might impress the pundits, but what does it mean really - your TT almost as good as digital ?? |
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Dear @richardkrebs : "" within its limitations, the platter speed app does give a reasonable snap shot of what the platter is doing and is thus useful in differentiating between TT's "" I remember that about 15-20 years ago in this same forum we were in a thread making some comparisons between TTs specs and w&f was one " critical " parameter on that comparisons. Some one there that I can't remember for sure ( I think was T-bone. ) posted that w&f can't tell us the whole true about because we don't know which test record/tonearm/cartridge were used to achieve that w&f figure. Now, TT Japanese manufacturers ( I think ) knew this " trouble " that could impedes that the spec all of us can be take it as a " reference " but that's what we all have from last 50 years. Does not exist other " standard " for that measures spec and we audiophiles needs " something " as reference. All de " bibles " on audio items characteristics/specs came in that way either the japanese bible as the information that came from years in magazynes as Audio and Stereo Review and I think High Fidelity too !!! What BT posted is only useful for each individual system owner with the lab to do it and this just can't happen. So it's not that reviewers are wrong because that's what they have on hand. Your wide explanation of the yellow raw frequency is really an eye open and truly welcomed. It's really easy: we can't do what BT did it to prove that his LT is " superior " and why is that way and his explanation is welcomed too but impractical for us mere mortals. Try to be scientific in extreme as dover likes is interesting but in this specific regards useless. Yes I learned today from all of you and thank's for that. R. @dover "" It is not possible to measure wow & flutter using a test record. "" It's what we have, so no real alternative but to read the raw frequency in the app like it or not. |
The wow and flutter of good modern turntables is hidden in the noise of record irregularity and eccentricities. All this is interesting and totally academic. @rauliruegas , sorry I missed your last post. Yes, it is very possible that one side could be off center in a different direction. I have never seen it in the records that were off center as I never thought to compared sides. But if you look at the way records are pressed the A and B side stampers or fathers are punched individually. One could be punched off center and the other not. I will carefully look at off center records to see what the other side does. I have not tried it but you could fill the off center hole with a mixture of epoxy and ebony dust. You would contact cement wax paper to one side and fill the hole from the other. After the epoxy sets you remove the wax paper and clean off the contact cement with lacquer thinner. You would then mark the center using a compass and drill a new hole. The record has to be fixed on a drill press so that the drill does not walk off center. |
Raul. Thanks for your comment. Yes the test record is what most of us use if we are to look at W&F, and as I have said earlier, it is useful to broadly differentiate between TTs. This despite the many variables in play. I also pointed out that we abandoned the platter speed app, this was during the development of K1. An interesting aside is that K1 had a similar subsonic resonance as seen in the TT-101. It was not always there and we could induce it by stopping and starting. The controller we used enabled us to tune this aberration out. Clearly visible on the yellow trace, this detail was filtered out on the green.  At that stage, in its early development, K1 had a similar messy yellow trace to some of the TT's posted here. Mijostyn "The wow and flutter of good modern turntables is hidden in the noise of record irregularity and eccentricities. All this is interesting and totally academic."We are going to have to agree to differ on that one. Cheers. |
Dear friends: For many years now we all were spending " thousands " of $$$$ for our LPs that its prices always goes up and up. I can't understand for sure why with all those money manufactures took and take for us no single LP pressed is dead-centered on both sides and with out waves/surface irregularities. In theory we pay more than enough to receive a " perfect " LPs and we just never can do it. I know that analog is way imperfect but seems to me that those LP manufacturers are full responsable of that specific issue but we audiophiles are not really demanding about an : accepted as " normal " behavior ! ! ! ? ? ? R. |
@rauliruegas You bring up a great point, why do LP manufacturers get away with providing what in many cases is a sub par product? The answer is what I think you touched on...because they can! I noticed on an email that was sent to me yesterday from Elusive Disc that Analogue Productions is increasing their price structure, across the board...and to order now before the price increase. Why is AP able to do this...same reason as above! |
Your wide explanation of the yellow raw frequency is really an eye open and truly welcomed.I'm delighted to see that at least two people here are naive (or foolish) enough to believe that the yellow RAW Frequency Plot is of any value without a computer algorithm to correct for record warps, hole eccentricity etc because I think I've found that elusive pure sine wave for the Raw Frequency that Richard Krebs was unable to supply for his OMA-K1.....? RAW FREQUENCY PURE SINE WAVE  Over to you Mr Krebs.......đ€ |
@rauliruegas, I think the problem with record manufacture is a matter of cost and what the market will bear. It is possible to make a near perfect record but this means higher tolerances and more maintenance. Pressing records is not a laissez faire operation. Every record is pressed in 30 seconds under some ridiculous amount of pressure. I think I read 2000 psi. at 350 degrees. All this is going to put a lot of wear on various parts. These machines require a lot of maintenance. This is no excuse for record stampers punched off center. I believe that is due to operator error. Richardkrebs, give me a break. Show me the perfectly flat and concentric record. It is not my fault that this makes your work somewhat less important. I have no irons in the fire. It might have been better if you just admitted that these irregularities do cause changes in pitch that might mask turntable speed irregularities. We all want accurate turntables but there is a certain degree of insanity in this. It's just like cars. "My Porsche goes 200 mph." "But, my Ferrari goes 204 mph." Who the heck ever drives that fast! My Porsche will hold a weeks worth of groceries and I can carry my mountain bike on it's roof racks. Try that in your terribly unreliable and difficult to service piece of Italian rubbish! (just comical relief folks, Ferraris are works of art.) |
I am careful to state that these Platterspeed measurements are for âentertainment purposes onlyâ. All test records are faulty as are all records to one degree or another yet I much prefer records to all digital formats. That said, I use the same 7â Feickert test record for every test so while the record isnât perfect the relative results are 100% accurate. Plus the results in green have been filtered to eliminate the effects of eccentricity. The SAT measurement was better than the SP10Râs. The OMAâs was best Iâve measured. The cheapest CD player will measure better but sound far worse. Iâm now using the Shaknspin to measure speed, wow, flutter etc. it doesnât rely upon a test record. It confirms the excellence of the OMAâs speed performance. As someone who professes to read and trust me you know that I almost never engage in hysterical hyperbole about BEST EVER. The AF Zero, SAT XD-1 and OMA are 3 great turntables and the SAT arm and Schroder OMA arm are the at the top of what Iâve so far heard. Buyers keying off of my SAT review have been in 100% agreement. When I wrote that Iâve not heard two other top contenders, the Axiom and Vertere, a reader in Asia who owns all 3 said he thought the SAT the best among them. Visitors who got to hear all 3 turntables thought they were clearly among the finest theyâd heard though all sounded different from one another, and sounded as Iâd written (once the reviews were published). Finally, the poster who claimed I didnât own a turntable in the â80s and had proclaimed digital best is either a liar or an ignoramus or both. Iâve been fighting the vinyl fight since hearing my first CD at an 80s AES. |
Dear all, Mikey is the only one being able to compare all that fancy TTs. Regarding prices it is a never ending story. Maybe I should come up with a million dollar babyâŠWhy not consuming MikeyÂŽs thoughts, it gives information and discussion opportunity for the guys like us. I am always asking myself what are the real innovations in turntable building. Are they shown in these units? i miss a real airbearing design which I have. I miss two exact running motors on both sides of a table, I have two installations and be very happy with it. I do own three DDs, among them a completely restored Victor 101. Why should I add 100 thousand dollars for a SAT table or an OMA design despite the Schröder arm looks interesting. Maybe one day Mikey got enough from the business and will be able to build up a real listening room đ |
Dear @grooves : Thank's to come here with your answer. What I posted to you about was with a positive attitude looking for this MF and I never imagine you come here to post on it. The fully analog imperfections makes that almost any analog subject could be controversial, as this one ( green vs yellow. ). The longer and deepest controversial dialogues takes the analog stages. In the other side and because no one but you are more close to the LP manufacturers it's " imperative " that the QC be a real and true QC with " zero " tolerance. You and any single audiophile in the world needs that the LPs be perfect centered ( both sides. ), no surface waves or irregularities and is imperative that those can happens because every one of us ( including you ) spend money and precious time fine tunning each one room/system only for the LP comes an " destroy " the quality level performance of those room/systems. I know that you understand perfectly and your direct help with all those LP manufacturers is and will be appreciated for those " things " happen in the short time. Thank's again, appreciated. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Itâs ridiculous! If the tonearm does not move side to side while playing the record then your record is perfectly centered (perfectly enough, so no one can detect any imperfections in pitch, even trained musicians). The rest is speculations of the most boring people - audiophiles. Vinyl is a cheap media format to manufacture, off-centered records must be in the recycle bin immediately. Defective records must be returned to the seller/shop whatever, no one will argue about it. Unfortunately there are off centered records in the market, playing those records everyone can actually see how a tonearm is moving side to side (sometimes itâs 5mm off, and thatâs awful, in this case the pitch is noticeably and constantly changing, especially if you are listening to the horn section, for example). If your tonearm does not move side to side then you donât have to worry ! If youâre still worried then stick to digital. |
Good grief. Why are you obsessed with only 3 TT's?? There are plenty of great tables without astronomical prices that have exceptional/state of the art speed accuracy. Try The Merrill-Wiliams 101.3 WWW.realturntable.com You Tube Video  youtube.com/watch?v=C_EV4DzTOa8 George has been making exquisitely engineered TT for a very long time dating back to his Merrill Heirloom Turntable. |
@grooves, thanks for your heartfelt concern about my mental state, but jealousy towards people who buy these things is not part of it. You are correct I havenât heard any of these tables and I never will. Iâve reached an age that denies me the ability to hear the alledged superiority of these turntables anyway, so I couldnât care less. However, charging $150.000 for a dressed up Technics turntable is sort of offensive and simply begs to be ridiculed. Iâll gladly accomodate..... đ |
Dear @halcro : ""Â
Platterspeed measurements are for âentertainment purposes onlyâ. All test records are faulty..."" Got it?. Maybe we took/take audio critical issues really seriously and is how we have to do it. My worried about is because the platterspeed charts came fom him in his TT reviews. As a fact I took it in more than one time those charts as a " reference " in some threads. R. |
Dear @edgewear : "" However, charging $150.000 for a dressed up Technics turntable is sort of offensive ...."" Yes if you consider the facts of the main whole TT design that in 2020 was analised here on a thread where one of many posts about is this one: This is what was posted by some one or maybe in the review ( I can't remember. ): : """"" is an acceptable price for pushing the boundaries of what is possible with hifi and sound quality """"" Here Agoner comments about: Who told you that the SAT TT " pushed the boundaries of what is possible....". The TT apports almost nothing to the TT kind of designs, exist nothing new/novelty or unique that appears for the very first time in the audio history and antinn resumed it in his statements: """"" this table is not breaking any new state of the art. The motor is a modified Technics; the base is a modified Minus-K isolation platform and as far as the plinth, magnesium alloy has been known for over 50 years to provide superior damping qualities """"" and neither for the hold down LP mechanism. R. |
@rauliruegas, Please do not bring me back into this conversation. But, for the record, this is what I said about the SAT: "However, from my perspective as someone with an engineering background, this table is not breaking any new state of the art. The motor is a modified Technics; the base is a modified Minus-K isolation platform and as far as the plinth, magnesium alloy has been known for over 50 years to provide superior damping qualities....But the review does indicate that a lot of machining was done in Switzerland by the same group that machines parts for Hasselblad (that has a $48K camera w/o lens). So, it is an object where no expense was been spared. It would have been nice to know how much benefit did the modified Minus-K base provided...Otherwise, the design is very compact and compared to others could be very appealing, especially those that already have a SAT arm. Is this table going to be trickle-down - no; the primary technologies - the motor, the base, the plinth are all tried and true - but not necessarily together. And, it is entirely possible that the table & arm form a âmagicalâ synergy that the whole exceeds the sum of the parts and it sounds awesome.". Otherwise for a blast from the past - here is the Audio 1985 review of the Technics SP -10MK3 TURNTABLE - Audio-1985-02.pdf (worldradiohistory.com).  |
BTW your Platterspeed chart is a 30 second test thus smooothing out the visual result. I make sure to always take a 60 second sampleYour wish is my command...... 65 SECOND PLATTER APPÂ 70 SECOND PLATTER APPÂ |
I am careful to state that these Platterspeed measurements are for âentertainment purposes onlyâYes....but unfortunately you don't explain WHY!!! 99.9% of people have no experience with the PlatterSpeed App and simply accept your published results 'on face value'. Many would also accept them as 'Gospel'....đ€„ That said, I use the same 7â Feickert test record for every test so while the record isnât perfect the relative results are 100% accurate.No they're NOT!!!!! They are unrepeatable and unreliable. Do you want me to post the Plots of the same turntable/arm set-up with the test record rotated 1/4 turn...? Visitors who got to hear all 3 turntables thought they were clearly among the finest theyâd heard though all sounded different from one another, and sounded as Iâd written (once the reviews were published).I haven't disputed this....in fact I reinforced the claim that only YOU can offer an opinion on the comparative SOUND of these three decks. And for that, I for one am grateful...đ |
@grooves If you'd REALLY like to include an objective, repeatable, scientific and REVEALING test for any turntable.....why not ask Ron Sutherland to help you set-up TIMELINE....? This test not only reveals VISUALLY...the true ability of a turntable to keep:-
Both Weiss and Krebs pointed out that ONLY direct drive can track and accurately reproduce a record and not be slowed down, however slightly, by the transients and dynamic contrasts presented in a record's grooves.You could include a LINK in your Review to the applicable YouTube Video. This could be a revelation in turntable comparison reviewing.... The only drawback could be the commercial pressure from manufacturers whose turntables are revealed for what they really are.....đ€„ |
Maybe one day Mikey got enough from the business and will be able to build up a real listening room đI've had the privilege of visiting Thuchan's Listening Room and should emphasise that whilst he says he has three DIRECT DRIVE turntables both vintage and modern......he also has (and had) many other turntables including the EMT 927 R80, Micro Seiki SX-8000 II, Continuum Criterion with both Cobra and Copperhead Tonearms as well as several Revox B77 Tape Decks. Here is his BLOGÂ đ€© So I was able to hear the Victor TT-101 against some formidable opposition and it was certainly not shamed..... Richard, my best friend, has one of the very first Continuum Caliburns (before Mikeys). Before that, he had the Rockport Sirius III which was quite a revelation for me. It took a LONG time for the Western World to give any audiophile creedence to Direct Drive..... |
EMT DD turntable like EMT950 and EMT948 are in the same league as best vintage japanese DD turntables. Actually, many EMT collectors (especially classical music lovers) prefer 950 over 927 and 930. One my friend prefere EMT948 and Yamaha GT2000 over Kenwood L-07D and Sp10 mk2. He have or had all of them in his own system. |
Dear friends :: What I posted day before yesterday at Stereophile was looking for an answer from him about the controversies in this thread and not there ( yet ) and here have that answer because that "Â
for âentertainment purposes onlyâ " is not an answer coming from a very high regarded " professional " reviewer, at least not an " elegant " answer due of what halcro told you: "" 99.9% of people have no experience with the PlatterSpeed App and simply accept your published results 'on face value'. Many would also accept them as 'Gospel'..."" @grooves , so that answer is a must to have not exactly only for our " satisfaction " but for your self and your readers. All analog lovers need to KNOW the true facts on that critical issue. R. |
Dear @halcro :  "Â
why not ask Ron Sutherland to help you set-up Timeline....? " I think that you did not read or participate in one of the threads where the Timeline it is not really good for " measure " TT speed stability because can't shows the platter micro speed stability within each revolution that's one critical issue when we are talking of speed stability. That item can't shows rapid speed changes. So Timeline is a true " entertainment ". It's a useless device for what we are discussing here. But........ R. |
Thatâs some listening room. Canât imagine affording anything like that with college tuition bills and the rest. Probably too late for Mr. Fremer to move out of Brooklyn. If I wasnât hobbled by property taxes and healthcare insurance, I could have that too! All things being equal, fellow audiophile friends in Europe with inexpensive or free college, healthcare and low real estate taxes seem to have more cash on hand for living the good life. |
@noromance  LOL. There are quite a few folk who have similar listening rooms and gear set ups. There is one gent, who lives up the coast from me, he has built a separate building on his estate just to hold his system, which is even more extensive than Thucans'!. Remember, when we are talking of multi millions of dollars for gear, this is mere chump change for some! Taxes....what are taxes??? |
Dear @alexberger : "Â
One my friend prefere EMT948 and Yamaha GT2000 over Kenwood L-07DÂ ..." Well is a preference and maybe the vacuum hold down of the Yamaha could makes that " preference of your friend. Btw, I would like to see the Kenwood under today speed stability measurements. Next something interesting of its motor and through the link we can read detailed information of each TT part design: http://www.l-07d.com/motor.htm R. |
