unforgivable sin of consecutive posts but:
1. i heard original magnets were from focal (speaker people) as used in some big famous speaker driver they had at the time.
2. in speaking to china magnet people they offered different kinds of magnet. some less strong than others. so it makes alot of sense to me that levitation gap will vary for different magnet sources
3. my audio dealer who is very wise told me that apparently the best performance for magnet bearings is when the gap is small rather than large and proud. pertains to magnetic fields and stability etc. so at the edge of collapse is when it should be least w/f.
4. for the la platine owner gap envy is a thing. my previous magnets were hopeless and there is nothing much more depressing than seeing the two magnet bits lying on each other when magic levitation is supposed to be happening.
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I kind of doubt the difference in the height of the gap between the magnets is due to Holland vs China magnets. If you do a search on the internet, or even the reviews shown in Verdier website, you can see some of the older La Platine with the Granito plinth having a small gap between the magnets, as if the magnets have lost some strength. That really makes me wonder if the magnets really lost strength overtime!
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@thekong Strength of magnets do diminish. And based on the metallurgy of the magnet, its rate of decline differ quite a bit. I read that neodymium loses its force steadily by 1% every decade. I’ve owned my La Platine for over twenty five years. I think for all practical purposes, the magnets will outlast my lifetime. And I agree, the difference in magnets for the La Platine is most likely not a Sino-Dutch issue. @mr_gray Your initial experience with the magnets almost touching is quite extreme. You had mentioned it on earlier posts, but I am now realizing how odd!
Making a further argument for the La Platine not being a plug-n-play device, the speed control on the motor died……for the second time in less than 6 months. The callas audio PDF file on Verdier modification pointed to a motor part, LM317T, that is responsible for keeping speed. ( see page 10, https://www.callas-audio.nl/Platine%20tips%20&%20tweaks.pdf ) I had it replaced late last year. And two weeks ago it started to fail again. I will do one more placement, and if the problem persists, then I will be calling Thom Galibier. @mr_gray This goes to your point about maybe improving the motor on the new version.
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oh boy! i had thought to buy one of those controllers as they recommend in that callas paper. sorry to hear. a real pain for you. do you replace it yourself or get someone to do it?
re: holland/china magnets, what i meant to say simply was that in looking into magnets, there are a variety of magnet "compounds" available. each has slightly different properties. and besides that different sizes might be standard from manufacturers (plan extent as well as depth). so variation from magnet source to magnet source seems quite likely.
for $3k AUD (say $2k USD) one can have the "Vitesse" a feickert product. my audio retailer says people are very happy with it. i read a review by someone on a forum saying it was a huge improvement on a la platine.
i am currently trying to get a price on the Sirius from Brinkmann. this seems very good and quite expensive i am sure. in both cases special power supplies can be used which increase the cost.
i reckon a good alternative could be the Origin Live motor kit. but then someone has to mount in the la platine housing. very permanent change which may not suit all. much more affordable.
dereneville offer motors. there is a review online (what's best) that indicated unhappiness. other people say they are great. might use same papst motor as the Vitesse mentioned above.
then there is the teres as well? this looks p good to me but again possibly significantly more expensive than vitesse.
it seems in many cases people have gone down this path and haven't found better performance than the original. so it is sort of if it ain't broke leave it type situation perhaps. my motor is a bit noisy though and of course poor @ledoux1238 you sound positively in wars so your hands are all but tied - you must buy a new motor and tell us all about it :-)
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@mr_gray Regarding the speed controller part, I bought 10, so plenty left over. PM me, and I’ll send you a couple just in case.i know a tech who helps me with the replacement work.
i am using a Chinese made replacement motor with a Micro Seiki rubber belt ordered from Origin Live, and in no hurry to repair original motor.
Of the various motor you mentioned, Dr. Feickert motor is new and new to me with no DIY work required, very appealing. Surprisingly, the motor issue is not high priority. Between fine adjustments of room acoustics, speaker placement, and cartridge alignment, listening to music has been a constant act of re-discovery and amazement. I’ll report back with motor update, if it happens.
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@ledoux1238 this is something! what difference do you find with this new motor? any improvement or same? i must admit i have been endlessly mucking about with rubber/linen/silk/suture silk threads. the knot in the linen is a disaster. i need to find a way to glue the ends together as i'm informed Kondo do for their beautiful "Ginga" turntables.
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BIG IMPROVEMENT
yesterday someone on What's Best indicated la platine and Kuzma Safir was a bad combo because of the moving feet on la platine and safir's need for stable level platform. they said one needed to use rigid feet but the downside of that was the combo "lost its soul".
i had been considering trying rigid feet again (have tried previously but didn't like sound and tended to agree with soulless sentiment).
but of course things change all the time. for example now i was truly floating on air. plus frankly my recent experiments with silk, silk with chalk (heard people do this somewhere or other, for more grip i presume), suture silk, linen thread, rubber belts - none of it was satisfying me somehow. now i had an instinct that double silk's "warmth" might offset the "clinicism" of rigid feet.
i use shaknspin2 to measure w/f and speed. typical measurements will be 0.07/0.03 for linen thread. maybe 0.06/0.02 for silk.
anyway i pulled platine apart so i had less weight to deal with then stuck the platine up on 3 CMS speaker footers (LS2.25). i got it level. i then put it back together, put my chalked silk double loop on and off we go.
so straight away the motor sounded quieter. i do measurements and i am getting 0.03/0.03. which is very low. frequency of interest has gone from 0.55/0.43 hz (which is around the frequency of the knot passing thru the spindle of motor) to 0.18 hz.
so then i listen to a record and lo and behold! a sea change. not a minor "is it this, is it that" type feeling. but a very big positive change. i could hear a tonne of atmosphere and i could hear swelling bass and harmonic overtones. it seemed like the noise floor had dropped quite dramatically. extraordinary nuance and information but very musical.
so much improvement that i have to say this is the way. there is no "oh i like the platine footers and will try them again". no. for me, from now on, its rigid footers on platine and motor. it is unarguably, to my ears, an order of magnitude better than anything i've heard before. i listened to beth orton's debut record hit "she cries your name". it was mental. i had never heard better in my house, on my system. the clarity of detail is unarguable. but more than that, the harmonic overtones, the improved "depth" to the presentation, the sheer scale and entertainment factor, i could not deny.
coming from the garrard 401 i had wanted a sound that had less bearing in it. so more depth, more nuance, more atmosphere. last night we got there. "mission accomplished".
now i have established this baseline i will no doubt still try different threads again. unwaxed linen thread is my next to try. because frankly the double looped silk only just makes 33.3 speed and won't make 45 rpm i feel quite sure. but if i have to listen to silk and only 33 rpm records for the rest of my days, i won't mind a bit.
i no longer have any interest in a new motor. it seems like the motor chatter pertained to the platine moving relative to the motor (something i couldn't see at all). it is much quieter now.
HAPPY DAYS!
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Hi @mr_gray, I may have missed it in your earlier posts, but when you said you are now “floating on air”, are you putting your Verdier on a pneumatic anti-vibration platform, such as the Vibraplane or similar? I am wondering whether the “lost of soul” comment are due to the lack of suspension when the springs are deactivated, therefore letting vibrations reaching the arm and cartridge!
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"floating on air" refers to being no touch on the bearing. so i have removed the ball bearing and i have withdrawn the spindle such that i am now truly using the platine as i believe it was intended to be used. it might sound odd that it has taken me this much time to get this right. i agree. but in my defence my platine came with very weak magnets which i had to replace. plus my platine uses the AS mod which means i have a platter on top of the standard platter. all up my platter assembly weighs about 8 kg more than "standard".
i truly wish i could put the whole thing on an active platform though. there was a seismion going for 6k USD locally but it's just too expensive relative to the table which was around that price.
i agree "lack of soul" is chatter at the arm. i think such chatter could be induced by the platter wobbling as well as from what table rests on. it is a sound i hear when i use linen thread, which due to the knot and the nature of that thread, is very noisy. one can see how the knot sends the whole platter into a spasm each time it comes thru the motor spindle.
i agree rigid feet could work to transmit chatter to the table and arm. the platine's feet do a good job of preventing motor chatter into the table. much better than the rigid feet (this can be heard readily with stethoscope).
somehow last night it all worked amazingly. i am hoping for a repeat tonight.
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@Ledoux1238
I understand a lot of it is tweaks, but all these tweaks have made me realize that the previous owners of the table, which is still available, might have tried tweaking and made it worst and I would have no idea how to fix it.
@Mr_Grey
Thanks for the reassurance, you made me realize that I was overthinking the whole thing. Until the last paragraph that is :
"i do plan to disassemble the platine, see if i can align magnets better... all totally unnecessary but it's a hobby right :-)"
Anxiety went right back up and from that smile you inserted at the end, you knew damn well what you were doing. Well played.
To be honest with you guys, the other reason I haven’t bought it and maybe the main one, is that it does not fit my rack, mine is not wide enough. Thanks for your time, you guys seem to be really enjoying this hobby, wishing you the best.
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@mr_gray, thank you for the explanation! If you think the seismion is too expensive, I would highly recommend the Vibraplane or similar pneumatic anti-vibration platform, either the active (which required a high pressure air compressor) or the passive version (which only need a hand pump).
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Regarding footers, I too am in the camp of defeating the original spring footers. However, I cannot say that the change is a sea change, as @mr_gray has experienced. And once the platter is on rigid footers, then some form of pneumatic platforms is recommended. I would assume that it should be a platform that would hold both the motor and the turntable, correct? That would mean a rather large foot print. I have a 120 cm x 45 cm x 5cm solid wood platform to accommodate both. I was eventually going to use Townshend seismic pods under the wood platform for isolation. I would imagine the pods would work. However, I have seen motor and platter on separate platforms.
How are you all handling this?
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as i now see it - with the la platine on its own feet, the movement of the la platine platter (wobbles) was exciting the suspension via contact between platter and spindle. this in turn was leading to a noisy motor as it was receiving forces of up and down rather than just lateral. noisy motor then feeds back into platter chatter. and on we go in an unholy mess.
now, on rigid feet, the motor only deals with a lateral load and is much quieter. the double looped silk is the "lubrication" in the system. a little give perhaps. the silk thread knot is tiny relative to linen. plus less "large" as the double loop somewhat minimises the significance of the knot. i continue to get extraordinary W/F results with rigid feet on la platine.
having said that, a platform which could prevent motor chatter (such as it is) from reaching platine platform and hence tonearm would certainly help. rigid feet don't do as good as a job as the platine feet in this role ime.
i must admit i don't know if such a platform would best have the motor and platine on it or just the platine? it seems to me that if the motor is on it, then the same issue exists (motor chatter shared with platine platform and hence tonearm). so should be separate which would help since as @ledoux1238 points out, otherwise you are dealing with a very large platform.
if kept separate, then the only chatter the platine gets is from thread/speakers. silk thread is dampening i believe. speaker chatter unavoidable i think.
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The Manual Levelling Designs are much cheaper and also cancel out frequencies desirable to be cancelled in audio.
Migrating Amplitude from Ambient Energies is always worthwhile to look into measures for managing it, when a TT is the system source and the mounting of the TT and supporting ancillaries are the important consideration.
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When placing a La Platine with hard footer on a pneumatic platform, I would certainly place both the main unit and the motor on the same platform, and may put a thin layer of Isodamp sheet, or Isodamp footer, under the motor for some further damping.
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@thekong
I tend to agree with your view on a continuous platform for both motor and plinth. However, the platform would receive substantial different weight distribution between the two units. My thought was to use Townshend seismic pods with different bearing loads to even out things out. If one were to use a Vibraplane, does it have the footprint to hold both units? I seem to remember someone using a Minus-K under the La Platine and it was difficult to achieve balance.
I recall reading WBF, maybe, that like @mr_gray you also use a Kuzma Safir on the La Platine. Do you still use it? What cartridges have you tried? What other arms have you tried?
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Theory says you want the motor and the chassis to react ideally in the exact same way to external disturbances, so as to maintain stable belt tension at all times. That helps optimize speed constancy. Therefore theory says don’t put isodamp under the motor without similarly treating the chassis and definitely do put both on the same shelf/platform.
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Hi @ledoux1238, yes I was using the Safir with the La Platine on an optical pneumatic table, but I have since moved the Safir to another TT. The Safir matches well with the EMT VM as well as the Dynavector XV 1S. My latest arms on the La Platine are the Kuzma 4Point14 and the Schroder CB. Actually I am going to move soon, and I am considering taking this down time to commission a custom plinth made of aluminium/brass or granite, modelled after the Basis Transcendence  Maybe I am biased, but I have always felt the MDF plinth of the La Platine could be improved. Actually, I am quite surprised that while many tweaks have been proposed for the La Platine, I have never seen anyone mentioned a change of plinth other than the Auditorium 23 granito plinth and OMA slate plinth!
For a pneumatic platform like the Vibraplane, they have 3 to 4 pneumatic “footers” under the platform for levelling！For the passive units, users have to check the levelling periodically, as there could be some leakage. For the active units, after the initial set up and levelling, the platform would automatically level itself every time the pumps are turned on. If needed, a larger piece of granite/aluminium could be placed on the platform to support the large footprint of La Platine. Of course, the maximum support weight of the platform needs to be taken into consideration!
MinusK is very effective in isolating vibration, but levelling it is a bit tricky and time consuming! You have to move the TT around, and may need to use some ballast weight to achieve levelling, and unless the main unit is placed exactly at the platform’s centre, putting the record weight (if it is heavy) on and of will affect the levelling. Since you have to readjust the motor’s position every time you put on a new string, you also have to rebalance the platform !
A word of caution about the Seismion, a few of my friends were using the first generation Seismion and reported reliability issues.
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Hi @lewm, yes, in theory that’s right! However, if the motor unit is transmitting vibration to the plinth/platter, then we have to pick the lesser evil ! That’s why I used the word “may” . Users just have to try it to see which one they prefer!
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@thekong
I am considering taking this down time to commission a custom plinth made of aluminium/brass or granite,
Please do not use granite - it resonates/rings badly.
Slate is much better due to its stratified composition.
The "Granito" Verdier is NOT Granite - it is terrazzo. Granito refers to French floor tiles made of sand/cement with stone embedded. This is why the original Verdier plinths were prone to crumbling.
I have used high quality German engineered quartz ( 93% quartz embedded in resin ) - very inert, rigid and available in an array of colours.
Also high density bamboo ply plinths are excellent. High density bamboo ply is considerably more dense than maple.
Personally I would stay away from aluminium/brass. Gunmetal would be ok - it is bronze with a high lead content.
If you insist on aluminium then at least do a sandwich construction with a layer of carbon fibre to break up resonances.
You could take a leak out of the Audio Tekne TT and use carbon block.
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thekong, If the "motor unit is transmitting vibration to the platter", then I would replace that motor. Admittedly, there is no motor with zero vibration, especially as the load is perpendicular to the drive shaft; it's a matter of degree. Any motion of the motor pulley relative to the platter or to the driven portion of the platter is going to cause a speed variation. Sometimes the goal can only be to minimize such problems, rather than to eliminate them totally.
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@lewm
The Verdier motor is garbage - noisy - I could hear mine from the listening chair 4 meters away. This has been well documented in this thread. The theory in the design is that you run the thread very loose such that the platter inertia dominates the motor, not the other way round, but the motor is a major issue for the reason you mentioned.
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Hi @dover , thank you for the suggestion, really appreciated ! The materials you mentioned, especially the high density bamboo ply, are interesting, and I will certainly look into it!
TT plinth material is a very interesting topic! Just for discussion sake, yes, for a long time, it was common believe among audiophiles that granite rings, and so not a good choice for making TT plinth! However, in recent years, a number of highly regarded TTs have used granite as plinth, including Verdier’s flagship the Magnum, and the CSport. The Kondo Ginga also has a base made of 2 pieces of granite of different thickness with a thin layer of copper/brass sandwich in between. It was because of these that I reconsider using granite as an option.
I wonder if you have auditioned the CSport, and if so, what is your comment? Thanks
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Hi @dover , one more question, is your TT the Final Audio Research VVT-1 with the outboard motor? I have a friend using this TT and has an extra motor, so I may borrow it to try on the Verdier
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@thekong
Yes - that's my reference TT, has been for 40 years.
You must use silk thread - the pulley was designed for it - I use surgical silk - thickish end of the range.
I originally bought the Verdier as a 2nd deck for 78's and multiple arm playing around.
I have since completed a Garrard 301 for myself. Sold the Verdier to a friend.
I have put together a few 301's/401's for friends - both quartz stone ( SMD style dual layer ), Bamboo, and Bamboo/Birchply hybrid.
A quartzstone plinthed 401 with bronze platter I built for a friend operated very very close to a Kuzma M with the same arm/cartridge - 4point11/van den hul and Kuzma mc's.
Both the quartz stone and bamboo ( 40mm ) are very stable and can be machine very accurately.
Just remember on the plinth on the Verdier is the same weight as the platter. That's why they put steel plates under the MDF plinth. If you do a custom plinth make sure the mass is equal to or greater than the platter weight.
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Hi @dover , I agree, as the Verdier has such a high CG, a massive plinth is likely to be beneficial, that’s also why I considered brass/aluminium/granite. I am assuming the high density bamboo ply is relatively light, so a slab of heavier material is probably needed to be bonded to the bottom of the bamboo ply plinth!
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@thekong
I used compressed bamboo ply - so it works out about roughly 10kg for 80mm plinth. The engineered stone would be more straightforward.
Suddenly had a brain explosion - it would be interesting to do a larger plinth and push the feet out to provide additional stability. Personally I don't subscribe to having a long belt - so you would still want the motor as close as possible.
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@dover , I am also thinking of an extended plinth, much like the Basis Transcendence ! Yes, motor placement would be an issue, maybe a cutout at the side of the plinth for the motor pod, much like some VPI TTs.
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@thekong With this recent round of plinth discussion, you bring up several interesting points. I am in the design field, and I despised MDF…..it’s birch plywood at a minimum and / or Finish plywood. But in audio, I live with it. Plinth replacement or improvement was never seriously considered as it would involve messing with magnets, thrust bolt / bearing, and spring footers. But replacing MDF with plywood or granite would be highly appealing. You mentioned CS port with granite plinth, OMA with slate La Platine plinth, and the AJ Conti Transcendence. These have all been my inspiration at one point or another. I had looked for a OMA slate replacement plinth to no avail; I was thinking of getting a CS Port TAT 2 as a second deck; and after spotting a used Transcendence, and its price, I will be admiring it from afar.
@dover You must have mentioned the Final Audio Research VVT-1 from an earlier post. I recalled researching it. Looking at the beauty now, and particularly the motor, I can understand your opinion of the Verdier motor.
Here’s a thought: without the original motor and plinth, is it still a La Platine?
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@ledoux1238, when it comes to replinthing TTs, I think the Verdier is probably one of the easiest to do. If the original suspension is not needed, then just a plain slab of material with a few holes drilled! On the Whatsbestforum I have seen a modified Verdier with a Steve Dobbins plinth, which hide the magnets below the surface, so only the platter can be seen! However, this arrangement required a relatively thick plinth, which is not that pleasing to my eyes!
Since we are discussing about potential upgrades, I also think the cantilevered armboard design, while convenient for adjusting mounting distance, probably not the most stable arrangement. So, I am also thinking of using a more conventional arm pod design if I go ahead with the new plinth.
One interesting design of the Basis Transcendence is that it seems like both the arm pod and motor pod are just sitting on the plinth with no hard connections! I wonder how much those pods have to weight to make this design feasible!
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@thekong
One interesting design of the Basis Transcendence is that it seems like both the arm pod and motor pod are just sitting on the plinth with no hard connections!
No I think they are through bolted from under the plinth.
Plinth
Some years ago Azzolina Audio did a run of terrazzo plinths for the Verdier.
They might well be up for building one ??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1L7h_cYmz4&t=24s
DIY Terrazzo plinth would not be that hard - just make a mould which for the Verdier plinth would be a plain box with some cylinders/studs bolted in for the holes. Pour in the cement and stone, when set break open and polish the surfaces.
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@dover , the following directly from Basis’ website. I was also wondering about that, but then I saw photos of the arm pot and motor pod being placed in different positions, and the plinth doesn’t have a single screw holes!
>When A.J. was building his personal reference turntable, one of the design goals was to create a forever platform versatile enough to accommodate multiple tonearms of different lengths. This flexibility was accomplished through the use of a massive, solid alloy base on which tonearms can be placed anywhere on their respective spindle-to-pivot arcs.
Today, audiophiles have the opportunity to benefit from this supremely capable design. Purchasing a Transcendence with a large base enables one to use a tonearm of any length and offers the possibility of placing it at a desired location rather than a fixed mount, provided that the location is the correct distance away from the platter spindle. Additionally, upgrades are stress-free, since components can be swapped without the need for disassembly.<
>The custom motor is mounted in a massive, extremely rigid housing machined from a billet of stainless steel. The supremely inert, high-mass motor housing in conjunction with compliant elastomeric feet result in a low resonant frequency of the entire motor system. This low frequency system effectively damps any higher frequency motor vibrations.<
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@dover , also thank you for the suggestion on Azzolina ! They didn’t list the Verdier plinth on the website anymore, but I may just send them an enquiry!
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@dover Thank you for the Azzolina Audio reference. Looking at its own TT on offer, its plinth is made from a paper / resin composite with properties associated with ebony wood.
@thekong The paper / resin composite would be my second choice as a plinth material. Taking inspiration from Azzolina Audio, my first choice would be a solid chunk of ebony with a 6mm copper bottom plate bolted to the ebony. A local supplier has a stash of real Indonesian ebony that would be perfect for the project. I wasn’t even thinking plinth replacement, but now……. Please update if you do proceed with this as will I.
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@thekong
This flexibility was accomplished through the use of a massive, solid alloy base on which tonearms can be placed anywhere on their respective spindle-to-pivot arcs.
Purchasing a Transcendence with a large base enables one to use a tonearm of any length and offers the possibility of placing it at a desired location rather than a fixed mount, provided that the location is the correct distance away from the platter spindle. Additionally, upgrades are stress-free, since components can be swapped without the need for disassembly.<
Yes, but, every time the cleaning lady has finished I would have to remeasure the position and/or see a therapist for my OCD. On my TT if I change arms I have to get a custom bronze/gunmetal arm board cut and polished down to a thou. That is cheaper than a good therapist. The pivoting arm boards on the Verdier are quite advantageous, if somewhat ungainly.
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@ledoux1238 , yes, paper / resin composite is an interesting option. The Immedia RPM2 TT’s platter also has a layer of what they called phenolic—paper.
@dover , I agree with you, micro movement of the arm pot is certainly a real concern! Unless the arm pot has a very substantial weight, simply taking the arm out of its holder may cause micro movements! I would not worry too much with the huge arm tower of the Kuzma XL, but the Basis’ arm pot looks a lot smaller!
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great to hear the suggestions around platforms. mine is a later run of "granito" and i find it very appealing. but of course no room for the motor on that platform.
i really would love to try a new motor. the vitesse is a special order so no trial available. i'm not keen to pull the original motor apart as i won't be able to put it back together to anyone's satisfaction.
does anyone have a suggestion regarding the motor? is dc or ac the go? i have a long dog audio motor controller for my garrard 401. i was in correspondence with the guy from LDA and he recommended a motor i could buy to utilise with it. the only thing that held me back was i would need a housing for the motor and the thought of doing that and getting motor running perfectly flat seemed intimidating.
should i try and build a garrard motor into a housing i wonder and just do it that way.
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have bought ac motor recommended by LDA guy. around $150 dollars to give it a shot. might mount in la platine motor for ease of use. in for a penny in for a pound and all that. i just don't fancy handing over thousands of dollars for a vitesse or other when feedback is so mixed and also just hoping it is a knock it out of park success because it would be a great feeling. the long dog audio speed controller is very good i know that and the motors are quite highly regarded so my fingers are crossed.
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